Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

[StefanM]

This is equal to saying a doctor should not be allowed to be a doctor unless he is willing to perform abortions. Your logic is flawed

See above. It's not flawed.

 

[StefanM]

The very fact that there are some here that supports the school shows how far off base our Christian heritage has gone.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Of course I'll be persecuted for that statement.

Don't get a martyr complex. :laugh: It's just that the issue is more difficult than it seems to be on face value.

Being a licensed counselor requires the willingness to serve the general public.

From the ACA code of ethics:

A.4.b. Personal Values​

Counselors are aware of their own
values, attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors​

and avoid imposing values that

are inconsistent with counseling
goals. Counselors respect the diversity
of clients, trainees, and research​

participants.

 

[Crabtownboy]

This is not about a university hiring a counselor - it is about a student in a university graduate program.

Do you believe that universities be allowed to exclude students based on their private beliefs?

Nice sidestep.

Let's phrase the question in another, perhaps clearer way. Should a university have standards on who it allows into a program and who is removed from a program?

What type of standard should be adopted?

Should religious beliefs, regardless of the religion be a factor?

 

[Revmitchell]

Don't get a martyr complex. :laugh: It's just that the issue is more difficult than it seems to be on face value.

Being a licensed counselor requires the willingness to serve the general public.

From the ACA code of ethics:

A.4.b. Personal Values​

Counselors are aware of their own
values, attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors​

and avoid imposing values that

are inconsistent with counseling
goals. Counselors respect the diversity
of clients, trainees, and research​

participants.

That code does not interfere with not counseling a homosexual. No one should be forced to. Respecting diversity in counseling does not force one to counsel any one person.

 

[jaigner]

Why would a counselor refuse to council a homosexual? Just because they have sin in their life doesn't mean they can't be helped by counseling.

 

[tinytim]

How would anyone here council a Homosexual?
Would you tell them it was sin?

If so, would you be crossing the line according to ACA?

Where would your allegiance be? To God, or the ACA?

 

[jaigner]

The very fact that there are some here that supports the school shows how far off base our Christian heritage has gone.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Of course I'll be persecuted for that statement.

What heritage? There are a lot of negative things in our heritage.

And, according to ethical standards of counseling, you cannot abandon a client just because you don't like something about them. My wife is a counselor and has counseled people from all walks of life with all kinds of sin in their pasts and present. Anyone with legitimate concern for others' well-being will not be turned off by sin.

I'm a teacher and I'm not allowed to actively share my faith (or political opinions, etc.) with the children I teach. But my presence and example there is a ministry in itself.

Same with counselors.

 

[jaigner]

How would anyone here council a Homosexual?
Would you tell them it was sin?

If so, would you be crossing the line according to ACA?

Where would your allegiance be? To God, or the ACA?

According to standards for LPC licensing, you cannot impose such beliefs on a person and keep your license.

 

[StefanM]

How would anyone here council a Homosexual?
Would you tell them it was sin?

If so, would you be crossing the line according to ACA?

Where would your allegiance be? To God, or the ACA?

Part of faith is being willing to take a stand even when it costs you something personally. If you feel a strong enough conviction, you may not be able to function as a licensed counselor.

It's always possible to go into pastoral or church-based counseling, but you don't have the option of insurance reimbursement.

The money comes with strings.

 

[Revmitchell]

Nope, you can be a Christian, refuse to counsel homosexuality, and be a counselor. This school has overstepped its bounds. No doubt about it.

 

[StefanM]

Nope, you can be a Christian, refuse to counsel homosexuality, and be a counselor. This school has overstepped its bounds. No doubt about it.

Could you refuse to counsel a Muslim? A Jew? A Catholic?

 

[Revmitchell]

Could you refuse to counsel a Muslim? A Jew? A Catholic?

The Christian girl in question most likely does not want to be put in a place where she would have to condone the behavior. So she would refer them out. That is reasonable. I as a pastor would never be in that position. But the homosexual agenda take things to far in trying to make sure no one could even refer them out.

 

[targus]

Nice sidestep.

Let's phrase the question in another, perhaps clearer way. Should a university have standards on who it allows into a program and who is removed from a program?

What type of standard should be adopted?

Should religious beliefs, regardless of the religion be a factor?

Sure - a university can set whatever rules it wants - upfront.

Is that the case here?

 

[targus]

Could you refuse to counsel a Muslim? A Jew? A Catholic?

Have bilateral contract laws been recinded?

Would you as a Christian seek out a Muslim counselor?

Or would you take a pass and seek out a Christian counselor?

Why is it your right to choose who to associate with but not the right of others?

 

[targus]

According to standards for LPC licensing, you cannot impose such beliefs on a person and keep your license.

And the way that a licensed professional avoids imposing their beliefs onto a client is to terminate the professional relationship.

A license does not grant the state the power to impose the state's values onto the practitioner.

 

[StefanM]

Have bilateral contract laws been recinded?

Would you as a Christian seek out a Muslim counselor?

Or would you take a pass and seek out a Christian counselor?

Why is it your right to choose who to associate with but not the right of others?

For pastoral counseling, I would seek a Christian.

For talk therapy, I am more interested in the theoretical orientation of the counselor, to be honest.

Regardless, it does not matter because my choice as a client is different from the therapist's choice.

 

[jaigner]

For pastoral counseling, I would seek a Christian.

For talk therapy, I am more interested in the theoretical orientation of the counselor, to be honest.

Regardless, it does not matter because my choice as a client is different from the therapist's choice.

At my alma mater, Wheaton College, we used to say that "all truth is God's truth."

There are many Christians (Muslims, atheists, etc.) who are horrible counselors. There are also many non-Christians (as well as Christians) who are good counselors. The negative thought processes that lead to mental unhealth can be addressed by anyone who is adept and well-trained. There are even some neurotherapies that can address deep trauma with scientific techniques, rendering conventional talk therapy moot in those cases. Certainly, well-trained Christians or non-Christians could administer those with equal skill.

Short aside, when I went through a long, debilitating depressive episode, I had to undo many of the negative and harmful thought processes that I had learned from my Christian upbringing. Sometimes Christians do more harm than good.

 

[windcatcher]

A good counselor knows his limitations and is honest. Show me a person who doesn't have some biases based upon principles and values.... and I'll show you a person who does not know himself well enough yet to be a suitable counselor....as such involves a lot of self-awareness and the ability to know their limits and their abilities.... which they can separate from in impartiality in counseling and which they cannot. This person sounds like she's aware enough to be a good counselor..... and knows better than to accept or continue the trust relationship of a client with whom she knows a conflict would prevent her therapeutics.

Can one say "Inquisition"?

Since when was it the function of a school or a court to decide a person must recant their beliefs!

This amounts to is government establishing religion (what it considers is acceptible or not) and prohibiting the free exercise thereof. I hope she appeals. I hope she has support. I hope there are churches.... Christians who see the ramifications of this and picket against this kind of judgement. If Christians refuse to be seen and heard on issues like this...... while we have the opportunity to be heard..... we have invited by our silence ...... the justice of judgement which will come upon the church... because we were silent in the market places... while hoarding our testimony and victory in silence.

 

[Robert Snow]

Sure - a university can set whatever rules it wants - upfront.

Is that the case here?

That is what I was wondering. Did this student know this before she enrolled or is this something new.