Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To be or not to be, that is the question.:thumbs:

For all those like DW believing in unconditional election, here is the question. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation?

Is there a doctor in the house?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Dr. Walter]

To be or not to be, that is the question.:thumbs:

For all those like DW believing in unconditional election, here is the question. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation?

Being "chosen TO salvation" presupposes a previous lost condition as unfallen mankind need no salvation.

I believe that both Adam and Eve were chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth as the gospel was shared with them by God Himself (Gen. 3:15) and the blood of animals were slain to provide them covering from their shame.

God is not the author of sin but sin is the result of secondary responsible causes. God's creation of free will in Adam and Eve gave the ability with responsibility for choosing sin and thus permission for the choice of sin without approving it or for God being responsible for it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Being "chosen TO salvation" presupposes a previous lost condition as unfallen mankind need no salvation.

HP: But then you have just blown away your argument of unconditional election. If I am reading you correctly, you must be a sinner to be elected to salvation, correct? That would make being a sinner the condition of salvation, therefore if God is going to save Adam and Eve as He elected, God would also have to elect their sinful state.

Are you certain you want to stay with your stated position?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Now lets see if I do not know one leaning hard towards Calvinism or not. I predict that DW is going to be forced to retract into a Calvinistic shell before this debate is over, with comments like, “God’s ways are higher than our ways.” :thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your confusing what happens in time verses what happens logical in the mind of God in eternity.

What happens in time is Adam sins by permission through free will, however, the salvation that occurs after the fall is due to God's purpose of election "to" salvation in view of permission of the fall. Hence, in the eternal purpose of God it is permission of the fall, election of a great number of the fallen unto salvation. Whereas what we see in time is the fall followed by salvation. It is the eternal purpose of God that explains salvation in relationship to the fall.

Hence, Adam was permitted to fall by his own free will into sin. God had previously elected Adam to salvation and so in time salvation occurred purposely in the life of Adam due to God's elective purpose.

However, in the case of Cain, he was born with a sinful nature that took part with Adam in the fall as all of the human nature was "in Adam" when he freely chose to sin. Cain sinned in Adam as much as you did and as much as Levi paid tithes in Abraham to Melchezidek. Adam acted as the representative of the human race in his testing of free will. Consider Adam like unto a book and every individual human a word on a page in that book. When Adam acted so did the entire human race as the entire race was genetically "in Adam." Hence, by one man's act of disobedience MANY were made sinners. Getting back to Cain. God did not choose to elect Cain "to" salvation but rather permitted him to continue in the free choices he made to resist and reject God. Cain was born in sin just as Abel but God chose to allow Cain to follow the dictates of his own depraved will while having elected Abel to salvation.

HP: But then you have just blown away your argument of unconditional election. If I am reading you correctly, you must be a sinner to be elected to salvation, correct? That would make being a sinner the condition of salvation, therefore if God is going to save Adam and Eve as He elected, God would also have to elect their sinful state.

Are you certain you want to stay with your stated position?

 

[DHK]

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What He created was very good, and had no sin in him or her. He was created without a sin nature with the capacity to do good or evil. The fact that he chose to do evil does not mean that he was ordained to do evil. God didn't choose. Adam chose.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

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DW: Your confusing what happens in time verses what happens logical in the mind of God in eternity.

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HP: I am only concerned with the stated condition you say must be in order to be an object of election, i.e. to be fallen, and reasoning forward from that notion. If Adam could not be saved until he was fallen he could not have been elected until he fell. If he could not have been elected until he fell, God could not have known he was to be elected until subsequent to his fall. That makes God something other than omniscient or…….. He elected Him to salvation before he fell, hence the necessity to elect him first to his fallen state which you clearly imply is a condition of his salvation. Which is it? Did God not know Adam was one of the elect until subsequent to the fall, or did in fact God predestine Adam to Fall in order to fulfill that condition to one of the elect God chose him to be??

By the way, the OP is not about anyone other than Adam and Eve. Try to stay focused. :thumbs:

 

[percho]

To be or not to be, that is the question.:thumbs:

For all those like DW believing in unconditional election, here is the question. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation?

Is there a doctor in the house?:smilewinkgrin:

Is one elected to salvation or elected to rule and serve with Christ in the kingdom of God? Is God saving the world today or calling out a people for his name and what is the purpose for these people who will carry the name of God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: What He created was very good, and had no sin in him or her……

HP: You fail to answer or speak directly to the OP. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation or neither? Can God foreknow the future apart from electing one? Will any enter heaven not of the elect? What ever happened to unconditional election? Are you saying God had to wait and see if Adam would sin or not before electing his outcome? I was of the opinion that your position would be in keeping with DW’s in that election to, or not to, salvation, occurs antecedent to doing good or evil according to Romans 9?????

 

[Dr. Walter]

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What He created was very good, and had no sin in him or her. He was created without a sin nature with the capacity to do good or evil. The fact that he chose to do evil does not mean that he was ordained to do evil. God didn't choose. Adam chose.

Exactly! With the ability of free choice came the responsibility of free choice. God created the ability to sin but created man with the responsiblity for the choice of sin. Hence, God could be perfectly just in condemning them for their sins or provide a way to be Just in justifying them from their sins by pure grace, thus doing what He wills with all those who deserve nothing but eternal wrath (Rom. 9:18-24).

Furthermore, Adam and Eve were created with MUTABLE natures. Their nature was not confirmed in righteousness or unrighteousness until they made a choice to sin. Once they chose sin their nature was confirmed in sin and everyone reproduced by them were born confirmed in sin by nature.

Unlike Adam and Eve, their offspring were not born with free will in a mutable state, but with free agency as their will was now the agent to freely express their fallen nature.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Percho: Is one elected to salvation or elected to rule and serve with Christ in the kingdom of God?

HP: That is what the OP calls upon you to tell us. Stay focused on Adam and Eve alone for now. Where they or were they not elected to salvation and or damnation?

 

[steaver]

HP: Did God not know Adam was one of the elect until subsequent to the fall, or did in fact God predestine Adam to Fall in order to fulfill that condition to one of the elect God chose him to be??

Yes, God predestined Adam to fall that all may be born with a curse.

Yes, God predestined all of those He foreknew in Christ before He laid the foundation of the world to be manifested throughout time and to come to their Saviour Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Sorry to tell you HP. All those in Christ stay in Christ eternally.

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP you are still failing to grasp the fundementals of unconditional election or else you wouldn't even be asking the questions you are asking.

Within the confines of the Garden, Adam acted in the capacity as representative of humanity. Outside that garden, Adam did not act in any representative capacity for humanity. The test was confined to the garden and in the garden when Adam acted so did all humanity and that is precisely why Paul says that it was by ONE MAN's act of disobedience MANY WERE MADE SINNERS.

Adam as a fallen individual, I believe, was chosen "to" salvation and found grace in God's sight. The only ones who will be saved and enter heaven are those "chosen in him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4).

HP: You fail to answer or speak directly to the OP. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation or neither? Can God foreknow the future apart from electing one? Will any enter heaven not of the elect? What ever happened to unconditional election? Are you saying God had to wait and see if Adam would sin or not before electing his outcome? I was of the opinion that your position would be in keeping with DW’s in that election to, or not to, salvation, occurs antecedent to doing good or evil according to Romans 9?????

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Exactly!

HP: DHK did not answer the OP directly period. If you say you agree with DHK, you need to answer the same questions I asked him in my last post to him.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: You fail to answer or speak directly to the OP. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation or neither? Can God foreknow the future apart from electing one? Will any enter heaven not of the elect? What ever happened to unconditional election? Are you saying God had to wait and see if Adam would sin or not before electing his outcome? I was of the opinion that your position would be in keeping with DW’s in that election to, or not to, salvation, occurs antecedent to doing good or evil according to Romans 9?????

I spoke directly to the OP.

Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation or neither?

He was created IN salvation AS a saved individual.

Can God foreknow the future apart from electing one? Will any enter heaven not of the elect? What ever happened to unconditional election? Are you saying God had to wait and see if Adam would sin or not before electing his outcome?

Adam had the choice apart from what God knew. What God knew doesn't matter. God knows all things. He is omniscient. Don't take away from God's omniscience. Adam was perfect. Don't take away from God's perfection in his creation. Are you suggesting that God created something less than flawless when he created a creature that had a free will, the capacity to choose evil?

Did God have to wait? You take away the omniscience of God and make him no better than an idol that the pagans worship. What kind of remark is that! Do you not believe in the omniscience of God?

God's salvation is always unconditional. It is the free gift of God. I have never yet known of a free gift that has conditions attach--a free gift!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: HP you are still failing to grasp the fundementals of unconditional election or else you wouldn't even be asking the questions you are asking.

HP: And the fundamentals are??????? Oh I forgot. If DW says it is gospel, right?

By the way. Don’t give us some philosophical answer. Either use logic that a wayfaring man though a fool might understand, matters of fact, truths of immutable justice, first truths of reason, or of course Scripture that defines for us in plain terms those fundamentals.

Then, answer directly the OP. Was Adam and eve elected to salvation or damnation, or was God just waiting around devoid of knowledge of their future choices, making God something other than omniscient? :thumbs:

Remember, we are focusing on the election of Adam and Eve, nothing else for the moment. :thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

The fall is never given as the condition for salvation. God's purpose of grace is given as the condition for salvation. God predetermined to permit the fall through human responsiblity for sin but the fall was not God's criteria in order to be elected to salvation but was the moral state out from which election brought certain ones "to" salvation.

Your logic is off. You are attempting to make the fall the criteria to be an elect when no such thing is taught in scripture nor does any Calvinist assert as that would be an open contradiction to the very basics of unconditional election as it is the good pleasure of His will that is the criteria for election.

​

HP: I am only concerned with the stated condition you say must be in order to be an object of election, i.e. to be fallen, and reasoning forward from that notion. If Adam could not be saved until he was fallen he could not have been elected until he fell. If he could not have been elected until he fell, God could not have known he was to be elected until subsequent to his fall. That makes God something other than omniscient or…….. He elected Him to salvation before he fell, hence the necessity to elect him first to his fallen state which you clearly imply is a condition of his salvation. Which is it? Did God not know Adam was one of the elect until subsequent to the fall, or did in fact God predestine Adam to Fall in order to fulfill that condition to one of the elect God chose him to be??

By the way, the OP is not about anyone other than Adam and Eve. Try to stay focused. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: He was created IN salvation AS a saved individual.

HP: So he was elected in and to salvation, is that your position? I thought one had first be a sinner and then believe to receive salvation. Was Adam saved antecedent to either of these???? You had better consult with DW before you answer if you two want to keep together on this issue. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: So he was elected in and to salvation, is that your position? I thought one had first be a sinner and then believe to receive salvation. Was Adam saved antecedent to either of these???? You had better consult with DW before you answer if you two want to keep together on this issue. :thumbs:

I have been consistent with my position.
You are inferring that God is a monster that creates evil and wicked beings, and goes against Scripture.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Being "chosen TO salvation" presupposes a previous lost condition as unfallen mankind need no salvation.

DW: The fall is never given as the condition for salvation.

HP: DW, you need to get your stories straight. You flat out contradict yourself.