Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Now there is one that is thinking for a needed change. :thumbs:

DHK fails miserably in his responses to present anything that would show how the notion that Adam did not fall when he sinned is true. It is absurd to believe that Adam sinned and did not fall neither did he receive the ’penalty’ for sin, which by the way is NOT physical death but rather is eternal separation from God. To then believe that one can pass to all his posterity a nature that he could not have possessed, (for if Adam did possess a sin nature he would have of necessity received the same penalty all are bound to receive, i.e., total separation from God for eternity apart from repentance and salvation.

Keep thinking Eric! It will serve you well in life and in eternity to come.:thumbs:

If Adam was totally separated from God in Genesis after his disobedience who was looking for them afterward? Who pray tell? Who was providing the sacrifice and covering for them? Come on.....tell me. I suggest you go back and read Genesis to find the answer scene you scoff at others learning of the incidence. God never left them nor forsook them even after they disobeyed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SF: The chief rulers were not saved, although they believed on Jesus

HP: Excellent point, showing further evidence that 'belief' or 'believing' has more than one meaning.:thumbs:

The devils believe and tremble but are not saved, yet still, if one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, “thou shalt be saved.” I would simply say that belief, to be effectual in salvation, must go far deeper than mere head knowledge, and affect the will of man to the extent that they willingly comply with the stated conditions of salvation or their belief will never save them. I would say that belief apart from a changed heart and mind towards ones sin will never evolve to saving belief. Belief that does not act as a catalyst in directing the will of man to fulfill the stated conditions of salvation will never evolve into saving faith either. If ones belief does not impose upon the will the desire to form intents in agreement to the stated conditions of salvation it simply will not save anyone.

 

[Jedi Knight]

What evidence supports the notion that you are saved and not simply deceived?

Atheist and scoffers use the same argument because they won't take God at his word. In your case it's "and I give the eternal life and they shall never perish". And you say But But But.....just like an atheist would argue to escape the truth. Atheist say "Show me the evidence" but they are not being honest in their questioning.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Excellent point, showing further evidence that 'belief' or 'believing' has more than one meaning.:thumbs:

The devils believe and tremble but are not saved, yet still, if one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, “thou shalt be saved.”

Are you suggesting the devils can be saved?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: If Adam was totally separated from God in Genesis after his disobedience who was looking for them afterward? Who pray tell? Who was providing the sacrifice and covering for them? Come on.....tell me. I suggest you go back and read Genesis to find the answer scene you scoff at others learning of the incidence. God never left them nor forsook them even after they disobeyed.

HP: God goes about seeking the lost JK. Some obey and come to Him, others reject His offers of salvation and seal their fate in doing so.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here we can take a lesson from DW. Election unto salvation pre-supposes a prior 'lost' condition. :thumbs:

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Some obey and come to Him, others reject His offers of salvation and seal their fate in doing so][/I][/B]

Did Adam obey and came to him?? lol HP you should try doing puzzels.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Did Adam obey and came to him?? lol HP you should try doing puzzels.

Adam answered when He called him, did he not?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Adam answered when He called him, did he not?

He was hiding was he not?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

He was hiding was he not?

But he answered when God called.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SF: Adam answered when He called him, did he not?

HP: Yes, but that is no indication that Adam was saved at that point. If we desire to get technical, Scripture never states to my knowledge that he ever was saved. I simply believe that he was, having such a close relationship with God, but I do not know that…. and I would believe that neither do any of you. We can clearly believe that while he was in the garden in obedience that he was in a right relationship with God, for he had access to the tree of life.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

HP: Yes, but that is no indication that Adam was saved at that point. If we desire to get technical, Scripture never states to my knowledge that he ever was saved. I simply believe that he was, having such a close relationship with God, but I do not know that…. and I would believe that neither do any of you. We can clearly believe that while he was in the garden in obedience that he was in a right relationship with God, for he had access to the tree of life.

HP,
We do know that God had to kill a lamb to clothe both Adam and his wife after their fall. And, as you pointed out, this does not necessarily mean they were saved, for we know that the blood sacrifices of the Old were not enough to completely do away with sin. It took the blood of the Lamb of God to do that.

There was indeed a covering given to them through the shedding of blood of a lamb, (at least I believe it was a lamb typifying the future sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sin of the world) but animal sacrifices could not take away, they could only cover.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Precisely.:thumbs: All sacrifices of the OT were part of a schoolmaster approach, but had no saving value in and of themselves.

 

[DHK]

HP: Yes, but that is no indication that Adam was saved at that point. If we desire to get technical, Scripture never states to my knowledge that he ever was saved. I simply believe that he was, having such a close relationship with God, but I do not know that…. and I would believe that neither do any of you. We can clearly believe that while he was in the garden in obedience that he was in a right relationship with God, for he had access to the tree of life.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

There are very few places in the Bible where God physically is found walking in the garden in the cool of the day with Adam, as it says here. You probably won't take it literally and rationalize it away like some atheist, but that is what it says. He walked regularly in the garden with Adam. He had fellowship with him. This was a regular occurrence. No other person in the Bible had this privilege. And yet you question that Adam was ever "saved," or a child of God? That truly is amazing!

Genesis 3:9-10 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
--Here we have a conversation between God and Adam, an audible conversation. How many places in the Bible can you find where God speaks audibly to others. Not many. And how many times do you find where God speaks audibly to those that are unsaved? Yet you still think that Adam was unsaved!

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
--God Himself provided the sacrifice. Blood was shed for the sin committed. It was not a sin that caused them to lose salvation. It was a sin that caused them to lose their fellowship with God. Otherwise God would not be calling out to them: audibly, reaching out at every chance, bringing them to this place of repentance where in the preceding verses they had just found out about the consequences of their sins.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
--The very next child or the first child was called Cain--meaning "by the help of the Lord," an expression of gratitude to God for the child that was given to them of God. Does that sound like the act of an unsaved person?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

There are very few places in the Bible where God physically is found walking in the garden in the cool of the day with Adam, as it says here. You probably won't take it literally and rationalize it away like some atheist, but that is what it says. He walked regularly in the garden with Adam. He had fellowship with him. This was a regular occurrence. No other person in the Bible had this privilege. And yet you question that Adam was ever "saved," or a child of God? That truly is amazing!

Genesis 3:9-10 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
--Here we have a conversation between God and Adam, an audible conversation. How many places in the Bible can you find where God speaks audibly to others. Not many. And how many times do you find where God speaks audibly to those that are unsaved? Yet you still think that Adam was unsaved!

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
--God Himself provided the sacrifice. Blood was shed for the sin committed. It was not a sin that caused them to lose salvation. It was a sin that caused them to lose their fellowship with God. Otherwise God would not be calling out to them: audibly, reaching out at every chance, bringing them to this place of repentance where in the preceding verses they had just found out about the consequences of their sins.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
--The very next child or the first child was called Cain--meaning "by the help of the Lord," an expression of gratitude to God for the child that was given to them of God. Does that sound like the act of an unsaved person?

Genesis 3:8 is the only place we see God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. There are no other places that say God walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam.

Actually, that verse does not say Adam walked with God in the Garden, it only says God walked and Adam hid. There is no indication that God walked in the Garden on a regular basis.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: And yet you question that Adam was ever "saved," or a child of God? That truly is amazing!

HP: They were absolutely children of God at one time, but they sinned and fell from that estate. If you can read I said plainly that it is my opinion that they got back right with God but Scripture simply does not indicate that that I know of. It doesn’t say one way or another that I know of.

If Adam and Eve never lost their first estate, making them OSAS, why would not we be born OSAS being a descendent of them in their image? Oh the depths of nonsense those holding to OSAS will go to support their unproven presuppositions. Adam never fell from a right relationship with God??? Oh brother. I suppose Satan did not either having access to the every throne of God after his fall.

 

[RAdam]

John 12:42 (KJV) Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 (KJV) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

The chief rulers were not saved, although they believed on Jesus. Jesus said elsewhere that those that deny Him before man, He would deny before His Father.

The chief rulers loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. They could not act upon the belief they had and because of that would not confess their belief. They were ashamed of Christ.

Many are like that today. They will say they love Christ, but will not tell their friends such for fear of losing their friends. Many will profess with their lips a love for God but their hearts are far from them. Their hearts will not allow them to deny themselves, taking up their cross to follow Christ. They would rather be pleasers of man rather than God.

Their belief in Jesus is not a true, acting belief.

So your position is that even though the bible says believers are born again and in a saved condition, these people were not. Huh? Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, period. It is a simple text that tells me that believers are born again children of God.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So your position is that even though the bible says believers are born again and in a saved condition, these people were not. Huh? Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, period. It is a simple text that tells me that believers are born again children of God.

And yet the Word of God says many will come to Jesus professing Him, calling Him Lord, and He will profess to them He never knew them.

Sorry, profession does not necessarily mean possession. Jesus said in the Gospel's, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Many believe Christ out of selfish greed, what they can get out of serving Him, instead of out of love because He first loved them. Many believe in Christ for the wrong reasons and because of that, their faith is vain.

 

[DHK]

HP: They were absolutely children of God at one time, but they sinned and fell from that estate. If you can read I said plainly that it is my opinion that they got back right with God but Scripture simply does not indicate that that I know of. It doesn’t say one way or another that I know of.

Are you made in the image and likeness of God, or in the image of animals? What makes you different from the animal kingdom? The "image and likeness" of God was not taken away from Adam. It may have been marred by sin, but they were still made in that image and likeness, and able to have fellowship with God once the barrier of sin had been removed. The analogy is that of a child with a father. A father does not disown his child simply because he disobeys him. He repents and all is well. That is what happened between God and Adam. He was God's child and there is nothing to indicate that God never disowned him.

If Adam and Eve never lost their first estate, making them OSAS, why would not we be born OSAS being a descendent of them in their image? Oh the depths of nonsense those holding to OSAS will go to support their unproven presuppositions. Adam never fell from a right relationship with God??? Oh brother. I suppose Satan did not either having access to the every throne of God after his fall.

Why can't a right relationship with God be restored. A right relationship does not mean a loss of salvation. If that were so heaven would be empty. No Christian going through life is sinless. Yet it is sin that causes our fellowship with God to be broken--any sin.

 

[glfredrick]

I would expect that Adam was sinless until he first sinned, then he was damned (God is not a liar!) needing salvation. He did not "fall from grace" as he had never accepted salvation in the sense of a lost person before his fall into sin. Once he did fall into sin, he was in need of salvation like every other human.

At that point, in all likelihood, Adam was "saved" like any other human being, by faith in Messiah. Whether before the fact or after the historical fact, salvation comes by only one name, the name of Jesus.

Adam, being the hearer of the proto-evangelum, was the first to hear the "gospel" and one could reasonably expect that he repented and chose to believe God at His word, as should we all. This is indicated (as others said above) by Adam's continued walk with God, albeit as a converted sinner and not a pure human being. We see "fruits" in Adam's walk that help to confirm his potential (and probable) salvation.