quantumfaith
Active Member
I can most definitely "identify" with Paul here, unfortunately every day of my life. I love Vs. 25.
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The 'Greater Good' Philosophical Notion
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
I can most definitely "identify" with Paul here, unfortunately every day of my life. I love Vs. 25.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Well, QF that gives me great hope for you as the person who cannot identify with these passages is a spiritually dead person.
HP, what about it? Can you experientially identify with either of these passages in your current Christian experience???
quantumfaith
Active Member
DW: Dont get your "hopes" up too much, given our track record I am confident (that would be with a 99% confidence interval and 1 degree of freedom confident) that I will be sure to dissappoint you again.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
HP: First, you miss the clear point of verse 25. Paul as a believer no longer lived to the flesh. He had DIED to it, he no longer lived, but Christ lived in Him!!! Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Someone shout Praise the Lord!!:godisgood:
We would clearly disagree DW on this passage. Paul was not making reference to his state as a believer, but rather was illustrating the condition of one lost under the pains of conscience telling him what was indeed right and good. He clearly found victory over that state, if it was ever truly his. We know from Chapter 6 as well as 8 that he clearly found the will to obey God’s commands through the strength provided by the Holy Spirit. I for one believe you are making a very serious error to believe that chapter 7 depicts his life as a believer in some continuos vacillating state, never able to find the strength to do what is commanded of all to comply with and live according to. Who was it that said, “Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” and “1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.” 2Ti 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, and I also believe this to be penned by Paul: Heb 13:18 ¶ Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.”
Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made FREE FROM SIN, ye became the SERVANTS of righteousness.
Many more could be cited that would go at direct antipodes with believing that the passge you mention is the general life of a believer, stumbling never able to get victory over the flesh. I know where I will take my marching orders and hope from, and it is not Romans 7 where you would have us mired. My hope lies in the following verse to have victory over the flesh and the devil in this present world and to be delivered faultless and blameless at His coming.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
What makes me lean towards believing he was simply using himself in the first person to illustrate that condition, was the fact that he also stated in another place that touching the law he was guiltless, and in another he stated he had live in all good conscience unto that day.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Dr. Walter
New Member
QF
Well, isnt that wonderful QF??? Christians no longer struggle with sin as they have the victory. That means they live above sin or else they would have a struggle with it and may lose some battles.
HP informs us the victory is won there is no more INWARD battle because there is no INWARD foe.
Since you admittedly struggle with the same struggle in Romans 7:25 and HP informs us that is only the struggle of a lost man than obviously you and I are lost people because just like you QF I have this struggle daily and often I lose a battle.
One thing is for sure. Either Paul was talking as a lost man in Romans 7 and Galations 5:16-17 or as a saved man. If as a lost man then you and I QF must be lost because that is our struggle and HP is the only saved between us three. On the other hand, if Paul is talking as a saved man, then HP is denying his spritiual condition can identify with that.
Well, isnt that wonderful QF??? Christians no longer struggle with sin as they have the victory. That means they live above sin or else they would have a struggle with it and may lose some battles.
HP informs us the victory is won there is no more INWARD battle because there is no INWARD foe.
Since you admittedly struggle with the same struggle in Romans 7:25 and HP informs us that is only the struggle of a lost man than obviously you and I are lost people because just like you QF I have this struggle daily and often I lose a battle.
One thing is for sure. Either Paul was talking as a lost man in Romans 7 and Galations 5:16-17 or as a saved man. If as a lost man then you and I QF must be lost because that is our struggle and HP is the only saved between us three. On the other hand, if Paul is talking as a saved man, then HP is denying his spritiual condition can identify with that.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Did I really say that? I do not recall saying it.
Dr. Walter
New Member
HP: Did I really say that? I do not recall saying it.
What makes me lean towards believing he was simply using himself in the first person to illustrate that condition, was the fact that he also stated in another place that touching the law he was guiltless, - HP
To be without guilt would be without sin as no sinner is guiltless.
What text of scripture would you base an internal struggle within Christians upon?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
What makes me lean towards believing he was simply using himself in the first person to illustrate that condition, was the fact that he also stated in another place that touching the law he was guiltless, - HP
HP: You are familiar with those comments I posted of the Apostle Paul, as well as this one as well: 1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
First, it is hard for me to make solid doctrine out of the life of Paul for obvious reasons. Who else could say in good conscience that they have lived in all good conscience unto this day, or that those things now understood as sin were done only ignorantly, or that touching the law one was blameless???? Certainly no one that I have ever known or met and certainly not myself. That leads me to exercise caution forming hard and fast opinions concerning Paul’s life especially in light of that 7th chapter as well. With that said I will proceed with caution.
I look at Paul as a strange duck, a one of a kind so to speak. I view sin as you well know, as a willful transgression of a known commandment of God, and agree with Wesley on this point that such is the only true definition of sin in Scripture. I believe he said it something to the effect that ‘nothing other than willful transgression of a known commandment of God is a proper definition of sin.’ (paraphrased by myself)
Another rare example is Job. Here was a man that loved God with his whole heart, a perfect and upright man that loved God and eskewed evil. Anther rare individual. God called Job a perfect man, whether that fits into our theology or not, yet we know that there came a point in time where Job saw himself as sinful, though not stated as such by God. I attribute that to Job loving God with all his heart mind and soul, and God simply did not real or evidently hold Job accountable for the sin Job later saw in his life because Job must have been honestly ignorant of it until God revealed Himself to Job in a new manner, and in light of that new revelation alone did Job see himself as sinful. I do not see God condemning him at all, but rather counseling Job to a greater height of understanding concerning God.
Before this gets too long I will leave it at that for now, but that is somewhat of a basis in understanding how I believe Scripture treats both Job and Paul to some degree. They were indeed exceptions and not the rule.
HP: Most importantly upon the warnings in Scripture about the deceitfulness of the flesh, the wiles of the enemy of our souls and the following passage and many others. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” And the one in James: Jas 1:14 “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” Yes there is a war going onto some degree or anther in the heart of every man. That does not mean that the common experience of the believer is to find themselves unable to do right, or an unstable walk as a ship is tossed to and fro in the sea. This topic I trust will be breached far more in the discussion of sanctification and its differing applications and meanings to one degree or another.
HP: You are familiar with those comments I posted of the Apostle Paul, as well as this one as well: 1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
First, it is hard for me to make solid doctrine out of the life of Paul for obvious reasons. Who else could say in good conscience that they have lived in all good conscience unto this day, or that those things now understood as sin were done only ignorantly, or that touching the law one was blameless???? Certainly no one that I have ever known or met and certainly not myself. That leads me to exercise caution forming hard and fast opinions concerning Paul’s life especially in light of that 7th chapter as well. With that said I will proceed with caution.
I look at Paul as a strange duck, a one of a kind so to speak. I view sin as you well know, as a willful transgression of a known commandment of God, and agree with Wesley on this point that such is the only true definition of sin in Scripture. I believe he said it something to the effect that ‘nothing other than willful transgression of a known commandment of God is a proper definition of sin.’ (paraphrased by myself)
Another rare example is Job. Here was a man that loved God with his whole heart, a perfect and upright man that loved God and eskewed evil. Anther rare individual. God called Job a perfect man, whether that fits into our theology or not, yet we know that there came a point in time where Job saw himself as sinful, though not stated as such by God. I attribute that to Job loving God with all his heart mind and soul, and God simply did not real or evidently hold Job accountable for the sin Job later saw in his life because Job must have been honestly ignorant of it until God revealed Himself to Job in a new manner, and in light of that new revelation alone did Job see himself as sinful. I do not see God condemning him at all, but rather counseling Job to a greater height of understanding concerning God.
Before this gets too long I will leave it at that for now, but that is somewhat of a basis in understanding how I believe Scripture treats both Job and Paul to some degree. They were indeed exceptions and not the rule.
HP: Most importantly upon the warnings in Scripture about the deceitfulness of the flesh, the wiles of the enemy of our souls and the following passage and many others. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” And the one in James: Jas 1:14 “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” Yes there is a war going onto some degree or anther in the heart of every man. That does not mean that the common experience of the believer is to find themselves unable to do right, or an unstable walk as a ship is tossed to and fro in the sea. This topic I trust will be breached far more in the discussion of sanctification and its differing applications and meanings to one degree or another.