Conditional election

[Thinkingstuff]

Do you mean "I accepted and so Jesus saved me" or do you mean "Jesus saved me and I accepted"??? Yes, it does make a difference. The first way, you are giving Christ permission to be the Savior whereas the second way you are submitting to the Savior's salvation.

The first way is the same as the testimonies I walked the isle, I signed a card, I said a prayer, I got baptized, I joined the church, I...I...I....I....I....I and I......etc. This is prescription salvation.

The Second way is all about Christ and what He did to save me. This is Christ honoring salvation.

No. The first is the perview of the evangelical. How many times have I heard that? Jesus saves and people either submit to Christ or they don't. Simple.

 

[RAdam]

No. The first is the perview of the evangelical. How many times have I heard that? Jesus saves and people either submit to Christ or they don't. Simple.

So really, had you not submitted to Christ you'd still be under condemnation. Really then, it wasn't Christ that saved you, but something you did. Your submission to Him is the difference between you going to heaven or hell.

 

[RAdam]

I'm in heaven because Jesus saved me. Another man is in hell because of his rejection of the Lord. Why is satan in hell?

So you aren't in heaven because you availed yourself of salvation? But that's what you said earlier.

Why will Satan be in hell? Sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So Christ honoring salvation to DW is “ “Jesus saved me and I accepted.” If that is not pure deterministic fatalism nothing is. We do not accept after being saved, we must first comply with His stated conditions in order to be saved.

DW says there are no conditions involved, and implies that the elect are just picked out of the blue before one does good or bad and to hell with the rest. Sorry DW. That is not Christ honoring salvation in the least. It is to paint a picture of a Just God as an arbitrary respecter of persons and one of necessitated double predestination. Such a view of salvation makes a mockery of a Just and Holy God and His clearly stated conditions of salvation in Scripture.[QUOTE] Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. [/QUOTE]

 

[quantumfaith]

So really, had you not submitted to Christ you'd still be under condemnation. Really then, it wasn't Christ that saved you, but something you did. Your submission to Him is the difference between you going to heaven or hell.

Romans 10:9-11, notice the prepositions, verbs and objects

IF

CONFESS (you)

WITH YOUR MOUTH

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

QF: Romans 10:9-11, notice the prepositions, verbs and objects

IF

CONFESS (you)

WITH YOUR MOUTH

HP: Oh don’t go getting technical here. That is reserved for one individual alone, DW. Just who do you think you are???:smilewinkgrin:

 

[RAdam]

So what Jesus did doesn't really save anyone, it's what you do. Your actions are what get you to heaven. That is what you are saying.

 

[quantumfaith]

So what Jesus did doesn't really save anyone, it's what you do. Your actions are what get you to heaven. That is what you are saying.

It is mans willfull response to the empowering grace of God. It is the mathematical "and" (intersection of the two).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdAM: So what Jesus did doesn't really save anyone, it's what you do.

Hp: Here is how I might respond. The atonement in and of itself saves no one. It provides the needed satisfaction to the laws demands that make it possible for God to forgive individual sinners and to treat them as though they have not sinned. The atonement builds the bridge between sinful man and a Holy God making salvation possible. God views the atonement as made for whosoever will.

RAdam: Your actions are what get you to heaven. That is what you are saying.

HP: A Sovereign God has mandated that man fulfill certain conditions for salvation to become effective in their lives. The fulfilling of any and all conditions are not meritorious in and of themselves, and by themselves can save no one. The conditions God requires of man are always thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT that for the sake of. We are saved for the sake of God’s mercy and grace, but no one will be saved apart from fulfilling the conditions He sets forth.

 

[quantumfaith]

Hp: Here is how I might respond. The atonement in and of itself saves no one. It provides the needed satisfaction to the laws demands that make it possible for God to forgive individual sinners and to treat them as though they have not sinned. The atonement builds the bridge between sinful man and a Holy God making salvation possible. God views the atonement as made for whosoever will.


HP: A Sovereign God has mandated that man fulfill certain conditions for salvation to become effective in their lives. The fulfilling of any and all conditions are not meritorious in and of themselves, and by themselves can save no one. The conditions God requires of man are always thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT that for the sake of. We are saved for the sake of God’s mercy and grace, but no one will be saved apart from fulfilling the conditions He sets forth.

:thumbs: Well said!!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: However, if from the beginning they have embraced a gospel that includes a partnership plan (Mt. 7:22-23) between what Christ did and they do then like all who embrace a false gospel they are "accursed" and hell is their home.

HP: You have called my beliefs heresy on several occasions. In order to be saved I had to comply with the conditions of repentance and faith in order to be saved. I was not saved until I confessed and repented for my sins and looked in faith to Jesus Christ for an atonement for sins that are past. Still yet I have no hope of inheriting eternal life in the world yet to come apart from my continued obedience to God and His Word. Am I accursed and is hell my home according to you?

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: You have called my beliefs heresy on several occasions. In order to be saved I had to comply with the conditions of repentance and faith in order to be saved. I was not saved until I confessed and repented for my sins and looked in faith to Jesus Christ for an atonement for sins that are past. Still yet I have no hope of inheriting eternal life in the world yet to come apart from my continued obedience to God and His Word. Am I accursed and is hell my home according to you?

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith:

 

[BobRyan]

The Conditional electionist refuses to believe God's estimation of all men as foreseen by God in Psalms 14:2-3:

Psa. 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


This is no doubt the description of the wicked but Paul quotes it and applies it to ALL GENTILES and ALL JEWS (Rom. 3:9-12) and his conclusion is that it has reference to "EVERY MOUTH" and "ALL THE WORLD" so that "NO FLESH" escapes this judgement.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.....19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

David and Paul have God looking down to see if there are any that will seek after God and they find NONE whereas conditional electionists have God looking down to see and they find MULTITUDES that "seek" God and "understand" God.
.

Try again.

And The options are:

Option 1: Supernatuarlly enabled Choice for ALL:
1. The Romans 3 description is telling us about the sinful nature that all mankind has - and does not deal with the supernatural work of God placing emnitity between the sinner and satan (Gen 3), "drawing all to himself" John 12:32, "Convicting the World of sin, righteousness and judgment" John 16, "light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

Rather the text speaks solely to the depravity of the sinful nature "alone".

--- In that case - when Christ "on the OUTSIDE" stands at the door and knocks - the one who OPENS the DOOR is the one that is Elect.


Option 2: Arbitrary Selection:

God sees the world of Romans 3 - and simply "mind zaps" the FEW of Matt 7 and ignores the MANY of Matt 7 out of pure capricious whim operating an arbitrary selection system "of the purest form".

In this case God IS partial no matter what Rom 2:11 says to the contrary. God simply arbitrarily "selects the few" and there is no difference at all between the few and the many OTHER than God's own arbitrary selection.

Not only is Romans 2:11 wrong in this model but so also Rev 3 - for Christ is not on the outside knocking --- rather Christ comes in - opens the door and lets Himself in. "At best" He comes in zaps the mind of the person on the inside who robotically opens the door "on command". And Christ chooses only the "few" of Matt 7 to do that with.

Clearly option 2 is "flawed".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So really, had you not submitted to Christ you'd still be under condemnation. Really then, it wasn't Christ that saved you, but something you did. Your submission to Him is the difference between you going to heaven or hell.

Not at all. Christ did the saving work. Gave me the ability to understand it. Gave me the desire for it and the only reasonable response to it is by accepting it. That requires nothing on my part. However, rejecting it does require effort and a person stands in open rebellion against God.

Look at it this way. Did Gilead save the Hebrews or did God? But Gilead had a choice did he not. He participated in saving God's people. But did he save them? No. It clearly was God. Also how did we get the bible? Did God hand write it himself on papyrus or did he in conjunction with man have man write and copy the bible. Man participated in the scriptures. However, do we give credit to the men who wrote the bible or is the Holy Spirit the author of it? Whose word do we say it is? Its the very word of God though God inspired Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon, Historical Scribes, the Prophets, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Jude, and a multitude of others. All throughout salvation history we see this correlation. Yet the honor and the power and glory of it is all attributed to God. Because it is he who does it. But that does not diminish our role.