T.u.l.i.p

[HankD]

Though I don't claim to be a calvinist, I have carefully examined and weighed their propositions and I don't see why calvinists would have a problem with the 1 Samuel passage RE: The troublesome spirit sent to Saul.

Maybe someone can explain the problem?

A more problematic passage in my not so humble opinion would be in Genesis

Genesis 6

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​

Calvinists I have known want to call this an anthropomorphism (a $20.00 word).

But I don't like that word because it has a place of importance in neo-orthodoxy (a $10.00 word).

HankD​

 

[Tom Butler]

When we humans repent, we change our will.

When God repents, He wills a change.

It's not as if He was caught by surprise, or at some point in the past didn't know it was coming.

Did the Trinity devise the plan of redemption before Adam and Eve sinned, or afterward?

Actually, Anthropomorphism sounds about right. And it helps explain I Samuel 15:29:

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

 

[Jim1999]

the word translated as repent also means to turnabout and go another direction...Now apply that to what God said.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Winman]

Though I don't claim to be a calvinist, I have carefully examined and weighed their propositions and I don't see why calvinists would have a problem with the 1 Samuel passage RE: The troublesome spirit sent to Saul.

Maybe someone can explain the problem?

A more problematic passage in my not so humble opinion would be in Genesis

Genesis 6

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​

Calvinists I have known want to call this an anthropomorphism (a $20.00 word).

But I don't like that word because it has a place of importance in neo-orthodoxy (a $10.00 word).

HankD​

I believe the problem Calvinists have with the story of Samuel being raised from the dead is that it shows that the dead are not like a corpse. Many Calvinists will compare the spiritually dead to a corpse that is not able to perform any function, and therefore a person must be regenerated to believe.

We also have the story of the rich man and Lazarus who died, the rich man being spiritually dead in hell. But he can talk, hear, see, feel, and even repents while in hell. So, this contradicts total inability.

I don't know exactly where I stand on Calvinism, I do believe man is depraved, and that no man can come to God unless God first draws him. However, I believe God draws all men and that all men have the ability to choose for God once drawn, or to refuse him.

I disagree completely with Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistable Grace. However I do agree that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in Preservation of the Saints, not Perserverance which are very different doctrines.

 

[asterisktom]

OK. I am not sure what you want exactly, or how you think this passage is so damaging to Calvinists, but here it is:

14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. 15 And Saul’s servants said to him, “Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. 16 Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well.”

What is the controversy? That Saul, having felt the Spirit's influence, nevertheless turned from God? You need to be more specific if you want specific answers.

Some thoughts on this passage that may or may not be what you are looking for:
1. The Spirit breathes where He wishes.
2. Let every man take heed how he hears.
3. God has the right, as a potter does over the clay, to make whatever kind of vessel He wants out of us.

Your thoughts, gb?

No thoughts from GB. Apparently he is just good at throwing down gauntlets, but not in picking them up.

 

[jbh28]

I believe the problem Calvinists have with the story of Samuel being raised from the dead is that it shows that the dead are not like a corpse. Many Calvinists will compare the spiritually dead to a corpse that is not able to perform any function, and therefore a person must be regenerated to believe.

We also have the story of the rich man and Lazarus who died, the rich man being spiritually dead in hell. But he can talk, hear, see, feel, and even repents while in hell. So, this contradicts total inability.

I don't know exactly where I stand on Calvinism, I do believe man is depraved, and that no man can come to God unless God first draws him. However, I believe God draws all men and that all men have the ability to choose for God once drawn, or to refuse him.

I disagree completely with Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistable Grace. However I do agree that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in Preservation of the Saints, not Perserverance which are very different doctrines.

so, your like a 1.2343334 point Calvinist.

 

[HankD]

Though I don't claim to be a calvinist, I have carefully examined and weighed their propositions and I don't see why calvinists would have a problem with the 1 Samuel passage RE: The troublesome spirit sent to Saul.

Maybe someone can explain the problem?

A more problematic passage in my not so humble opinion would be in Genesis

Genesis 6

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​

Calvinists I have known want to call this an anthropomorphism (a $20.00 word).

But I don't like that word because it has a place of importance in neo-orthodoxy (a $10.00 word).

HankD​

RE: My own post, all the answers do not satisfy my God given sense of reason and the mind that He gave me.

One thing I can definitely say, whatever "repent" means when it comes to God in no way contradicts or conflicts with His Sovereignty, His foreknowledge or any of His other incomprehensible attributes.

I like Jims "turnaround", but that probably has to be the way He planned it.

When did He plan the redemption of the human race, before or after the creation and/or sin of Adam and Eve?

Probably not within the boundaries of time, so neither.

I know, it's beyond us to be able to think in this manner, as well it should be.

NKJV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

so, your like a 1.2343334 point Calvinist.

I don't even think I'm that. I do agree that all men are depraved, but total to me means 100%. I think there are verses in the scriptures that show man can still do some good.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

We know that Cain was lost in the NT, so he was spiritually dead here in Genesis 4, but God himself said that Cain could "doest well" if he chose to do so. So, I do not think the sciptures show man 100% depraved.

And Jesus said we who are evil can give "good gifts".

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

If everything the spiritually dead man does is evil, then how could he give "good" gifts?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

It is interesting that there is a majority that accepts most of the 5 points. Praise the Lord.

 

[webdog]

When we humans repent, we change our will.

When God repents, He wills a change.

That sounds nice and theological and all...but I don't believe you can say that "matter-of-fact" . You do not know how an infinite God deals with finite man within and outside of time. If it's His will to change His will, who are we to question it?

It's not as if He was caught by surprise, or at some point in the past didn't know it was coming.

I don't think God changing His will automatically supports open theism.

Actually, Anthropomorphism sounds about right. And it helps explain I Samuel 15:29:

...if you approach it with the presupposition you have, it might be. Why not just take it at face value?

Fact is God stated Hezekiah needed to get his house in order as his life was required. AFTER Hezekiah prayed God THEN granted him an additional 15 years of life. Either God was kidding Hezekiah, He was lying, or God did exactly what Scripture said He did and granted him 15 years AFTER hearing his prayer. How this all works out within the confines of time, I won't pretend to know...I will just accept it by faith and not try to explain it away using my soteriology and theology.

 

[Eagle]

I believe the problem Calvinists have with the story of Samuel being raised from the dead is that it shows that the dead are not like a corpse. Many Calvinists will compare the spiritually dead to a corpse that is not able to perform any function, and therefore a person must be regenerated to believe.

We also have the story of the rich man and Lazarus who died, the rich man being spiritually dead in hell. But he can talk, hear, see, feel, and even repents while in hell. So, this contradicts total inability.

I don't know exactly where I stand on Calvinism, I do believe man is depraved, and that no man can come to God unless God first draws him. However, I believe God draws all men and that all men have the ability to choose for God once drawn, or to refuse him.

I disagree completely with Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistable Grace. However I do agree that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in Preservation of the Saints, not Perserverance which are very different doctrines.

Good points Winman. I am probably, largely in agreement with you here. I don't know if I can more committal than that! :tongue3:

 

[jbh28]

I don't even think I'm that. I do agree that all men are depraved, but total to me means 100%. I think there are verses in the scriptures that show man can still do some good.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

We know that Cain was lost in the NT, so he was spiritually dead here in Genesis 4, but God himself said that Cain could "doest well" if he chose to do so. So, I do not think the sciptures show man 100% depraved.

And Jesus said we who are evil can give "good gifts".

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

If everything the spiritually dead man does is evil, then how could he give "good" gifts?

Total Depravity doesn't teach that unsaved people cannot do "good" things. Total means all of your has been affected by sin, not that you are as evil as you can be. I'm sure Hitler did some "good" things.

 

[Eagle]

Total Depravity doesn't teach that unsaved people cannot do "good" things. Total means all of your has been affected by sin, not that you are as evil as you can be. I'm sure Hitler did some "good" things.

Hey jbh28,

You say, but, TD adherents do teach that one is incapable of recognizing the "good gifts" of our heavenly father - such as Christ - what's the diff?

 

[Rippon]

We also have the story of the rich man and Lazarus who died, the rich man being spiritually dead in hell.

I have never heard anyone ever refer to the residents of Hell being spiritually dead.They are simply experiencing the torments of eternal perdition and separation from Christ.

But he can talk, hear, see, feel, and even repents while in hell. So, this contradicts total inability.

No one repents while in Hell. That's just nonsensical.

I don't know exactly where I stand on Calvinism,

Now you're telling us after making hundreds of posts against what you thought Calvinism was.

I do believe man is depraved, and that no man can come to God unless God first draws him.

So far so good if your definitions of depravity and drawing line up biblically.

However, I believe God draws all men

Oops, there you go again. He drwas all kinds of people -- but each and every past,present and future.

and that all men have the ability to choose for God once drawn, or to refuse him.

Everyone drawn by the Father and given to the Son is made willing -- none of them refuse.

I disagree completely with Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistable Grace.

Earlier in this same post of yours you said that you didn't know where you stood regarding Calvinism. Now, here you are clearly an anti-Calvinist.

However I do agree that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in Preservation of the Saints, not Perserverance which are very different doctrines.

Study man,study.

 

[jbh28]

Hey jbh28,

You say, but, TD adherents do teach that one is incapable of recognizing the "good gifts" of our heavenly father - such as Christ - what's the diff?

Could you give me an example of what you are talking about?

 

[Havensdad]

That sounds nice and theological and all...but I don't believe you can say that "matter-of-fact" . You do not know how an infinite God deals with finite man within and outside of time. If it's His will to change His will, who are we to question it?
I don't think God changing His will automatically supports open theism.
...if you approach it with the presupposition you have, it might be. Why not just take it at face value?

Fact is God stated Hezekiah needed to get his house in order as his life was required. AFTER Hezekiah prayed God THEN granted him an additional 15 years of life. Either God was kidding Hezekiah, He was lying, or God did exactly what Scripture said He did and granted him 15 years AFTER hearing his prayer. How this all works out within the confines of time, I won't pretend to know...I will just accept it by faith and not try to explain it away using my soteriology and theology.

Scott Oliphant, from Westminster Seminary California, has an awesome discussion of this. He distinguishes between God's actual purpose and plan in eternity, and His relation to us covenantally (in relationship). He says most reformed guys take it to an extreme, and say God never repented; but this is wrong.

So, God never changed His ultimate purpose and plan in these instances, and yet in His relation/dealings with us He changes His mind.

Personally, I think this kind of tension is just part of a non-temporal God being in relationship with time bound people.

 

[gb93433]

OK. I am not sure what you want exactly, or how you think this passage is so damaging to Calvinists, but here it is:

14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. 15 And Saul’s servants said to him, “Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. 16 Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well.”

It would not be damaging to calvinists or anyone else if they were consistent in their theology. What I find is that too often the theologies of God and evil conflict in many camps. They conflict because what they have been told and accepted also conflicts. My point is to expose their Greek philosophical thinking and mixing it with words used in a Jewish context paralleled with Jewish thinking. That is where I believe many (not just calvinists) "fall off the wagon." It is problematic for those who claim to believe in God's absolute sovereignty in every detail of their lives yet cannot bring themselves to the detail of one simple idea of God being sovereign when it comes to evil. Why? I believe it is because they are simply repeating what they have been told and do not have a proper theology of God. Of course that same sort of practice is not limited to calvinists It is also among who do not study and simply repeat what others teach them. I have never been challenged by any systematic theology but I have been by God's word many times. When you have men and women who meet with each week and reading and studying God's word they often have questions. That is where we must study and know God's word to be able to answer their questions.

We have some great resources today that help us, but how many buy them? Books are so cheap compared to what they used to be many years ago. When I consider the number of men I was in seminary with I am shocked at how few have kept up their language studies. So many of them were about getting degrees but now are more about putting out fires in churches rather than teaching the people and helping them grow. Don't we owe it to our listeners to give them our best. Don't we owe it to them to lead the way in knowing God and making him known. How can I teach about an intimate God that I do not know?

I will not be back until Friday so I will not be responding to any posts until later.

 

[gb93433]

I hope you are more than just a reformed convert but rather one who is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit.

Note from Moderator: I have had a complaint that gb has been a little too harsh (not exact words) here. I have known gb for a long time and he is definitely NOT questioning anybody's salvation which is about the only rule I could find it might relate to. In that case I shall leave it standing and unless another moderator/admin. thinks it needs to be changed--feel free to do so. I do not think that gb is being too harsh here, I think he is trying to express the care and need for salvation for everybody who reads this thread. For now, I leave it at that.

My remark had absolutely nothing to with salvation but what scripture teaches. Someone can be convert to most anything, but one who is born again is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit. I do not for one second believe the response behind my remark was ever one of questioning the salvation of anyone but rather their theology and reminding them of what scripture teaches. We are more than just converts.

 

[asterisktom]

My point is to expose their Greek philosophical thinking and mixing it with words used in a Jewish context paralleled with Jewish thinking. That is where I believe many (not just calvinists) "fall off the wagon."

Your ranting against Calvinists (I don't even like using the term) is wearing thin. It is also misinformed.

Let's make a deal. You don't accuse me of an assumed "Greek philosophical thinking" and "Jewish thinking" and I won't say that your mother must have dressed you up in funny clothes. Instead we will write of the here and now, and the verse and issues in front of us.

Fair enough?

 

[MB]

I believe in only one doctrine, that of Jesus Christ the Son of God. All the other doctrines do not compare.
MB