T.u.l.i.p

[Rippon]

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The 3 issues really are the drawing, the ones given to the Son from the Father and the same ones given to the Son are likewise never cast out but raised up on the last day. There really is no connection to this passage that says that EVERYONE drawn is raised up or that EVERYONE drawn is given to the Son. Only that all that are given to the Son had to be first drawn.

I don't understand the nature of your problem. All that are drawn are the very same people that are given by the Father to the Son.None of these folks will be cast out and all of them will be raised up on the last day.Is that difficult?

There are several things I don't agree with when it comes to Calvinism, namely the teaching that God does not have any intention to save everyone, that God could save ALL, however God chooses only to save a few and the rest He "passes over".

Those are your problems -- your philosophical conclusions -- but that reasoning process of yours is not biblical.

The Lord has the right, since He is indeed the LORD, to save those whom He wishes. He doesn't have to save any. But thanks to His great mercy some are saved. He mercies some and hardens others -- that's the God of the Bible.BTW, He is the only God, so if you have a problem with that -- you have a major issue with Him. He doesn't take kindly to those who disregard His sovereign right to what whatsoever He wishes.

 

[Rippon]

Exactly. The scriptures say that everyone who comes were drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn will come. Calvinists cannot seem to grasp this simple, but important difference. I have seen numerous Calvinists say all who are drawn will come, but that is not what the scriptures say.

The given are the ones who come. The very same ones are the drawn and not cast away and raised up at the last day. No one escapes through the cracks. All of these folks are the same grouping of people.

 

[Rippon]

It is the one who "comes" to Jesus that will be raised on the last day.

The ones who come are the very same ones that the Father gives to His Son. The drawn ones are the ones who come.The very same individuals remain under the same umbrella throught John 6. These folks will not be cast out and they will be raised up at the last day.

 

[Rippon]

ALL that are drawn are raised up.

AMEN to that!

 

[Winman]

AMEN to that!

No, that is not what John 6:44 is saying, it is saying all that come were drawn, and that they will all be raised up.

It is saying all that come will be raised up, not all that are drawn will be raised up. You are reading into this verse what it does not say.

The scriptures show that not everyone who is drawn will be saved.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

These persons were drawn, they were called and bid to come to the wedding, but refused to obey and come. And a few verses later it says God destroyed them.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

And here Jesus shows that the vast majority of those who are called or drawn will be lost. Only those few who obey and come when they are called are saved.

 

[Ruiz]

No, that is not what John 6:44 is saying, it is saying all that come were drawn, and that they will all be raised up.

It is saying all that come will be raised up, not all that are drawn will be raised up.

The scriptures show that not everyone who is drawn will be saved.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

These persons were drawn, they were called and bid to come to the wedding, but refused to obey and come. And a few verses later it says God destroyed them.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

And here Jesus shows that the vast majority of those who are called or drawn will be lost. Only those few who obey and come when they are called are saved.

With all due respect, we should turn to the basics of grammar. The Subject of the second half of 6:44 are the drawn. There is no indication either in Greek or English of a separate group of people who come. I think your interpretation goes against both English and Greek Grammar.

 

[webdog]

I have never heard anyone ever refer to the residents of Hell being spiritually dead.They are simply experiencing the torments of eternal perdition and separation from Christ.

REALLY?!?

This is what happens when you let your soteriology redefine simple terms. Spiritual death is separation. How much more separated can man get from God than HELL?!?

 

[Winman]

The given are the ones who come. The very same ones are the drawn and not cast away and raised up at the last day. No one escapes through the cracks. All of these folks are the same grouping of people.

Again, you are understanding John 6:65 in the exact reverse of what it is really saying. It is saying the ones who come were given.

What it is showing is that no man can take credit for his own salvation. If you come to Jesus Christ, it was due to God's grace in revealing his Son to you. On our own, none of us would ever conceive of the gospel. That is a spiritual truth revealed to man by God, a spiritual truth that is impossible for the natural man to conceive of on his own.

What does the verse say?

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Is this verse saying that no man can be given unless he comes? No.

Is it saying that no man can come unless it were given him? Yes.

So, you are turning the meaning of this verse around to say the opposite of what it is really saying.

 

[webdog]

With all due respect, we should turn to the basics of grammar. The Subject of the second half of 6:44 are the drawn. There is no indication either in Greek or English of a separate group of people who come. I think your interpretation goes against both English and Greek Grammar.

I'm afraid your grammar is in error and you are reading your presupposition into it. The plain reading a child can understand is saying in order to be raised up on the last day, one must come to Christ (v. 40) but no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father (v.44).

Anything added to that or taken away from that is pure eisegesis. It is not even addressing who is or who can be drawn.

 

[Ruiz]

I'm afraid your grammar is in error and you are reading your presupposition into it. The plain reading a child can understand is saying in order to be raised up on the last day, one must come to Christ (v. 40) but no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father (v.44).

Anything added to that or taken away from that is pure eisegesis. It is not even addressing who is or who can be drawn.

Wow, I do not know where you studied grammar, but the verse says

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

The antecedent of Him (second sentence) refers to the previous sentence in the same verse (in Greek this is one sentence thus making it more apparent who this is referring to, some english translations made this two sentences for a simpler structure).

"Him" must refer to the previous antecedent in the same verse (and greek sentence)sentence. The major option is referring to the nominative word in the first english sentence. This refers to the people drawn signified by the nominative οὐδεὶς (I hope the Greek comes through, if not it is transliterated oudeis). Both are referring to people in the masculine in Greek. Thus, those who are raised up is a masculine identifying to those who are drawn in the first part of the verse.

In other words, the αὐτὸν(transliterated auton) in the masculine accusative case in this verse refers back to the οὐδεὶς (oudeis) in the nominative masculine. Those are the ones who were drawn.

The only other nominative case word is the word "Father", but He is the one doing the action and not the recipient of the action. Thus, the Father is not raising up himself.

Thus, the basic Greek grammar (and I believe English Grammar) supports this contention.

Please, tell me how you can translate any other way given the structure of the Greek.

 

[Ruiz]

I could have made my above statements simpler.

1. V. 44 is one sentence in Greek.
2. Those who will be raised up is in the accusative case, referring back to the nominative in this sentence.
3. There are two options for a nominative. First, those who are drawn and the second is the "Father".
4. Most will agree that the Father is not being raised up. If someone disagrees, we can address that later.
5. It must be those who are drawn are raised up since that is the only other option in that sentence.

 

[webdog]

I could have made my above statements simpler.

1. V. 44 is one sentence in Greek.
2. Those who will be raised up is in the accusative case, referring back to the nominative in this sentence.
3. There are two options for a nominative. First, those who are drawn and the second is the "Father".
4. Most will agree that the Father is not being raised up. If someone disagrees, we can address that later.
5. It must be those who are drawn are raised up since that is the only other option in that sentence.

Where have I argued otherwise? Of course those raised up were drawn and consequently given by the Father. Verse 40 also states those who come to Christ are raised up. It's actually quite simple...you are making it much more difficult than it needs to be. What the verse is NOT saying, which I think you may be implying, is not all are drawn.

It is a common theme in John's letter that believers are the ones who possess eternal life (3:16, 18, 36; 6:27-29, 40; 6:54). Of course all believers will be "raised up" and have been drawn by the Father.

I find it ironic the reformed concentrate on this one particular verse without taking the whole of John's writing into account.

 

[jbh28]

Ask a Calvinist; its my understanding as Calvinism is structured that the same way God saves 1 He could likewise save ALL. Eg. Totally depraved -> regenerated -> saved. All actions are God none are man, therefore God could so choose to save ALL if God willed to do so but God chooses not to, instead God passes over the unregenerate and/or unelected.

So the difference then between heaven and hell hinges upon God's own freedom of choice to save or to not save.

My brief summary may not be the most attractive read but it is close to the way I understand Calvinism is structured, give or take some more creative exegesis on behalf of some of my Calvinist friends. :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

By the way, judging from the poll results I can see I'm in the minority. Non Calvinist that is.

Darren

So in your opinion, do you think God is able to save those that never get saved?

 

[webdog]

So in your opinion, do you think God is able to save those that never get saved?

Yes and no. He cannot violate Himself, and He has declared only those of faith will be saved. Can he save those who do not put their faith in Him? No. On the other hand He sovereignly has decreed this way of salvation. Could He have saved everyone if He had never decreed salvation by grace through faith? Yes.

 

[Ruiz]

Where have I argued otherwise? Of course those raised up were drawn and consequently given by the Father. Verse 40 also states those who come to Christ are raised up. It's actually quite simple...you are making it much more difficult than it needs to be. What the verse is NOT saying, which I think you may be implying, is not all are drawn.

It is a common theme in John's letter that believers are the ones who possess eternal life (3:16, 18, 36; 6:27-29, 40; 6:54). Of course all believers will be "raised up" and have been drawn by the Father.

I find it ironic the reformed concentrate on this one particular verse without taking the whole of John's writing into account.

Web, I have focused on the entire passage in my Masters thesis. However, I think these verses are the disputed verses. Pick up any commentary (reformed or otherwise) they spend a lot of time in explaining them.

 

[webdog]

Web, I have focused on the entire passage in my Masters thesis. However, I think these verses are the disputed verses. Pick up any commentary (reformed or otherwise) they spend a lot of time in explaining them.

I've read numerous commentaries on that passage...and the common theme is to focus solely on THAT passage. That is faulty hermeneutics. I find most not just trying to explain that passage, but starting with the presupposition their soteriological view is correct then beginning to break it down. Of course if it's true that God does draw all men the reformed position has a problem with that verse. That is why I believe many commentaries have to start by trying to disprove that instead of just taking the passage at face value (in context of the surrounding verses, chapters and the writing of John as a whole) for what it says, not what you want it to say.

 

[Eagle]

Ask a Calvinist; its my understanding as Calvinism is structured that the same way God saves 1 He could likewise save ALL. Eg. Totally depraved -> regenerated -> saved. All actions are God none are man, therefore God could so choose to save ALL if God willed to do so but God chooses not to, instead God passes over the unregenerate and/or unelected.

So the difference then between heaven and hell hinges upon God's own freedom of choice to save or to not save.

My brief summary may not be the most attractive read but it is close to the way I understand Calvinism is structured, give or take some more creative exegesis on behalf of some of my Calvinist friends. :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

By the way, judging from the poll results I can see I'm in the minority. Non Calvinist that is.

Darren

Excellent response, Darrenss1, you put in a nutshell what the doctrine of Calvinism is.

Here's the problem, how does God receive the glory He is due, from mankind, angels, powers and principalities, etc., - when He dictates all the responses? (Eph. 3) I know this is deep, but, it really seems as though any old gospel would have sufficed for God's purposes - if He was dictating all the responses to it. Instead, the ONE & ONLY PERFECT gospel that would accomplish His purposes is the one He provided. It is the gospel that allows - no requires - men to make up their mind to choose to follow Him - since He has done all the work to enable us to.

God receives incalculable glory, BECAUSE His perfect gospel works to save billions of souls - through their own free will - IN SPITE OF BEING DEPRAVED! Only a perfect love, and a perfect gospel could pull this off! What a God! That is a God worthy of my love, worship, and allegiance! Isn't this what all of the OT & NT teaches us - that He is worthy of this?

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

What I envision when I read this - I know it's just me - but I see the angels trying to figure out exactly how this all will end - it really isn't looking all that successful at this point. I envision them studying over people, scripture, etc., then looking back at God, with an air of "Are you sure, that this gospel is going to work? How? You are leaving an awful lot to chance on people not receiving your love - wouldn't it be better to do it like the Calvinists say and ensure your success?"

 

[jbh28]

Yes and no. He cannot violate Himself, and He has declared only those of faith will be saved. Can he save those who do not put their faith in Him? No. On the other hand He sovereignly has decreed this way of salvation. Could He have saved everyone if He had never decreed salvation by grace through faith? Yes.

Good answer. I agree with you. You mentioned "He cannot violate Himself" and that's well put. God can have limits but only limits He has placed on himself.
My point in asking this is because many who reject the doctrine of election do so in thinking that if God chooses whom He will save, then he would save all. My point is that it is God chose to make faith a requirement of Salvation. God in his perfect foreknowledge knows that not all will have faith. So in this sense, God is choosing not to save some people (those without faith). Now, this doesn't prove in any way unconditional election, but it does demonstrate that God is making choices in regards to our salvation. Does God want everyone to repent and be saved. As your answer was, yes and no.

 

[Iconoclast]

No. It is the one who "comes" to Jesus that will be raised on the last day.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
Amy, these come because they are given of the Father.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
44No man can come to me, except the Father

13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Jesus came and died a covenant death for the sheep. They are His sheep because they are given by the Father. He is not willing that any of the sheep perish.Goats perish. His sheep do not EZK.34/ Jn 10

 

[webdog]

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
Amy, these come because they are given of the Father.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
44No man can come to me, except the Father

13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Jesus came and died a covenant death for the sheep. They are His sheep because they are given by the Father. He is not willing that any of the sheep perish.Goats perish. His sheep do not EZK.34/ Jn 10

Pulling random verses from context and putting them all together is not a good tactic to use to support your view.