T.u.l.i.p

[MB]

Total Depravity doesn't teach that unsaved people cannot do "good" things. Total means all of your has been affected by sin, not that you are as evil as you can be. I'm sure Hitler did some "good" things.

This sounds as if you're trying to say the word total doesn't mean totally. Being totally depraved would mean un-saveable. Wouldn't it?
Before Salvation we are lost with no hope of Salvation until that hope is given us. Hope is given us by our being convinced of the gospel. Once convinced by God's messenger and the Holy Spirit we believe because we are convinced and that belief is faith. Yet faith can only save if we submit to the righteousness of God. Rom 10:1-4

These Pharasee's in Romans believed in God but they could not submit to God's righteousness of sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world. They rejected Christ.
Submission is not a work it's giving up to Christ.
MB

 

[asterisktom]

I believe in only one doctrine, that of Jesus Christ the Son of God. All the other doctrines do not compare.
MB

Yep.
Me and the Bible.
B-I-B-L-E,
that's the book for me.

Excuse while I go throw away all my books of man's thinking. Hey... this here Internet gotta go too. :type: :type: :type: :type:

Wait a minute ... What are you doing here? : > )

 

[MB]

Yep.
Me and the Bible.
B-I-B-L-E,
that's the book for me.

Excuse while I go throw away all my books of man's thinking. Hey... this here Internet gotta go too. :type: :type: :type: :type:

Wait a minute ... What are you doing here? : > )

I posted here just to show you that total depravity isn't scriptural. I would encourage you to take a good look at Romans 10:1-4. Those Pharasee's believed in God by grace and by that same Grace rejected God's Son. I know this isn't something you can believe, but don't blame me. It's God's Word.
MB

 

[asterisktom]

I posted here just to show you that total depravity isn't scriptural. I would encourage you to take a good look at Romans 10:1-4. Those Pharasee's believed in God by grace and by that same Grace rejected God's Son. I know this isn't something you can believe, but don't blame me. It's God's Word.
MB

I hope you don't mind my previous comments. Just being humorous - or not (as my wife would say!)

Well, let's see. Here is the passage, Romans 10:1 - 4:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now where do you get where the Jews who didn't believe in Christ still had God's grace?

I think maybe you are unclear on what "total" means in total depravity. It would be like, say, just a few drops of mercury stirred into a glass of orange juice. The mercury would be mixed in with all of the goodness of the OJ. he glass would still smell very tempting, but it would be totally ruined for any good purpose.

This is not a "totally" good analogy, but hopefully comes close enough. The Bible says in Proverbs that, "the plowing of the wicked is sin".

Personally, I don't like the term chosen. I would have preferred maybe "Thorough depravity". Even "depravity" is not the best term to settle for.

 

[MB]

I hope you don't mind my previous comments. Just being humorous - or not (as my wife would say!)

Well, let's see. Here is the passage, Romans 10:1 - 4:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now where do you get where the Jews who didn't believe in Christ still had God's grace?

They were Jews and there fore elect but that's just part of His grace. They knew the God of the Tora but that's just part of Grace. They understood the old testament. Grace is what you believe that allows all this isn't it? They believed in God can anyone believe in God with out the grace to do it with? Do you believe man can believe in God on His own. If not then you would have to agree God's grace is always involved. It's by God's grace that we even have life to begin with.

I think maybe you are unclear on what "total" means in total depravity. It would be like, say, just a few drops of mercury stirred into a glass of orange juice. The mercury would be mixed in with all of the goodness of the OJ. he glass would still smell very tempting, but it would be totally ruined for any good purpose.

This is not a "totally" good analogy, but hopefully comes close enough. The Bible says in Proverbs that, "the plowing of the wicked is sin".

Personally, I don't like the term chosen. I would have preferred maybe "Thorough depravity". Even "depravity" is not the best term to settle for.

In my humbled opinion "Lost" works good for me because, being lost you are unable to help your self. You are in effect helpless to find your way. It doesn't mean you can't be found, or saved, or shown the way. It simply means you are with out the means to find your own way.
We are all sinners. The difference is we have been found.
MB

 

[Eagle]

Could you give me an example of what you are talking about?

Err..., umm..., ssuurre? I guess, I don't understand what you want, since you know very well, I'm sure, how TD is defined, and understood by it's proponents. But I'll take a stab at it. Here is a quote of Arminius, supplied by quantumfaith, earlier in this thread:

Arminius himself wrote about depraved humanity: "In his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections, or will, and in all his powers by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, conceive, will, and perform whatever is truly good."

Is this an example?

 

[Tom Butler]

One of my pastors put it this way:

"Total depravity doesn't mean we're as bad as we can be. It means we're as bad off as we can be."

 

[Rippon]

This sounds as if you're trying to say the word total doesn't mean totally. Being totally depraved would mean un-saveable. Wouldn't it?

Absolutely not. You were totally depraved/corrupt when Christ saved you. All of us believers were in this prevasively corrupt condition when the Lord saved us. The "unsaveable"ones think that they are fine and have no need of being rescued.

 

[Jedi Knight]

If depravity was a color like blue......we would be blue all over.

 

[Winman]

They were Jews and there fore elect but that's just part of His grace. They knew the God of the Tora but that's just part of Grace. They understood the old testament. Grace is what you believe that allows all this isn't it? They believed in God can anyone believe in God with out the grace to do it with? Do you believe man can believe in God on His own. If not then you would have to agree God's grace is always involved. It's by God's grace that we even have life to begin with.


In my humbled opinion "Lost" works good for me because, being lost you are unable to help your self. You are in effect helpless to find your way. It doesn't mean you can't be found, or saved, or shown the way. It simply means you are with out the means to find your own way.
We are all sinners. The difference is we have been found.
MB

I agree with MB. I believe God's grace has been primarily shown to man through his word, the scriptures.

Man left to himself would never know or understand the true God, and never in a million years come up with the concept of the gospel. This is what John 1:13 is saying:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born again by believeing and receiving God's word, the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel came not by the will of the flesh or the will of man. Man will ALWAYS choose to believe he can save himself through his own goodness and good works.

If any part of Total Depravity is true, it is that man is unable to know and understand the true God and salvation through Jesus Christ unless God first reveals himself to us. Man does not have the ability to know these spiritual truths of himself. This is God's grace.

But I do believe man has the ability to be taught by God and being taught can trust on Jesus Christ.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Darrenss1]

However, I believe God draws all men and that all men have the ability to choose for God once drawn, or to refuse him.

I disagree completely with Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistable Grace. However I do agree that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in Preservation of the Saints, not Perserverance which are very different doctrines.

All excellent points!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Winman said:

I don't know exactly where I stand on Calvinism, I do believe man is depraved, and that no man can come to God unless God first draws him. However, I believe God draws all men and that all men have the ability to choose for God once drawn, or to refuse him.

And Rippon replied:

Oops, there you go again. He drwas all kinds of people -- but each and every past,present and future.

Everyone drawn by the Father and given to the Son is made willing -- none of them refuse.

I find it interesting that Calvinism depends so much on John 6:37-44 to really make it fit for "U.L.I".

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The 3 issues really are the drawing, the one given to the Son from the Father and the same ones given to the Son are likewise never cast out but raised up on the last day. There really is no connection on this passage that says that EVERYONE drawn is raised up or that EVERYONE drawn is given to the Son. Only that all that are given to the Son (they are believers not unbelievers) had to be first drawn. There are several things I don't agree with when it comes to Calvinism, namely the teaching that God does not have any intentions to save everyone, that God could save ALL, however God chooses only to save a few and the rest He "passes over".

Darren

 

[Winman]

Winman said:


And Rippon replied:


I find it interesting that Calvinism depends so much on John 6:37-44 to really make it fit for "U.L.I".

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The 3 issues really are the drawing, the one given to the Son from the Father and the same ones given to the Son are likewise never cast out but raised up on the last day. There really is no connection on this passage that says that EVERYONE drawn is raised up or that EVERYONE drawn is given to the Son. Only that all that are given to the Son (they are believers not unbelievers) had to be first drawn. There are several things I don't agree with when it comes to Calvinism, namely the teaching that God does not have any intentions to save everyone, that God could save ALL, however God chooses only to save a few and the rest He "passes over".

Darren

Exactly. The scriptures say that everyone who comes were drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn will come. Calvinists cannot seem to grasp this simple, but important difference. I have seen numerous Calvinists say all who are drawn will come, but that is not what the scriptures say.

Jesus said if he was lifted up he would draw "all men" unto him.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[quantumfaith]

Exactly. The scriptures say that everyone who comes were drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn will come. Calvinists cannot seem to grasp this simple, but important difference. I have seen numerous Calvinists say all who are drawn will come, but that is not what the scriptures say.

Jesus said if he was lifted up he would draw "all men" unto him.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Ruiz]

Exactly. The scriptures say that everyone who comes were drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn will come. Calvinists cannot seem to grasp this simple, but important difference. I have seen numerous Calvinists say all who are drawn will come, but that is not what the scriptures say.

Jesus said if he was lifted up he would draw "all men" unto him.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 6:42
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. "

It seems the people God draws will be raised up. The force of this verse indicates that no one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn. Those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

John 6:42
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. "

It seems the people God draws will be raised up. The force of this verse indicates that no one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn. Those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

No. It is the one who "comes" to Jesus that will be raised on the last day.

 

[Darrenss1]

John 6:42
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. "

It seems the people God draws will be raised up..

Yes but it doesn't say ALL that are drawn are raised up. You could say all whom will be raised up were first drawn. But there is a difference between the two.

Darren

 

[Iconoclast]

If you are a serious student of the word I would find it hard to believe that you would agree with the politicians of the reformed movement. They are politicians and nothing more. Those who study well are seldom involved with the ignorant.

It is fun to antagonize those who claim God is sovereign and then back out of interpreting passages such as 1 Sam 16. I find that rather shallow of those who do such things and claim to believe in God's sovereignty and yet shy away from thinking that could have anything to do with evil.

You were given several answers to your "big problem"verse that really has nothing to do with the issue being discussed.
Unfortunately you do not seem to comprehend what you are given to read, so you will wait a real long time for an answer. Instead of looking up the verses you slander and attack a godly pastor because you cannot begin to comprehend what was written.
When a person turns from biblical light they will go to the darkness.
Your hiding behind 1sam. is because you do not want to face the truth of scripture. Not everyone will welcome the truth.It is given to some,and hidden to others.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The KIng is sovereign and despite many who attempt to refuse His reign over them ,,they will submit in the end;

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

.

 

[jbh28]

There are several things I don't agree with when it comes to Calvinism, namely the teaching that God does not have any intentions to save everyone, that God could save ALL, however God chooses only to save a few and the rest He "passes over".

Darren

Question, could God save all?

 

[Darrenss1]

Question, could God save all?

Ask a Calvinist; its my understanding as Calvinism is structured that the same way God saves 1 He could likewise save ALL. Eg. Totally depraved -> regenerated -> saved. All actions are God none are man, therefore God could so choose to save ALL if God willed to do so but God chooses not to, instead God passes over the unregenerate and/or unelected.

So the difference then between heaven and hell hinges upon God's own freedom of choice to save or to not save.

My brief summary may not be the most attractive read but it is close to the way I understand Calvinism is structured, give or take some more creative exegesis on behalf of some of my Calvinist friends. :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

By the way, judging from the poll results I can see I'm in the minority. Non Calvinist that is.

Darren