T.u.l.i.p

[Eagle]

Good answer. I agree with you. You mentioned "He cannot violate Himself" and that's well put. God can have limits but only limits He has placed on himself.
My point in asking this is because many who reject the doctrine of election do so in thinking that if God chooses whom He will save, then he would save all. My point is that it is God chose to make faith a requirement of Salvation. God in his perfect foreknowledge knows that not all will have faith. So in this sense, God is choosing not to save some people (those without faith). Now, this doesn't prove in any way unconditional election, but it does demonstrate that God is making choices in regards to our salvation. Does God want everyone to repent and be saved. As your answer was, yes and no.

Hey jbh28,

Here is an allegory. A man is drowning in a storm tossed sea. You are in a boat - the only boat. You are the only one in the boat. You really want to save this man - even tho you know that he is a despicable man. He is a man that has done you wrong. Nevertheless, you recognize that any life has value - even his - and that it can be changed to a God-honoring life. You clear everything out of the way so that you can get him in the boat; you brace yourself; you reach out for him. All the despicable man in the water needs to do is reach back and accept the salvation that you freely offer. You reason with him, you show him that you have made the way clear for him to come into the boat. You point out that there are no strings attached. You demonstrate your willingness to die, if you must, in order to help him into the boat. You even plead with him. The man still has to reach out and accept your free offer to save him. Whether he accepts or not - your desire remains to save the man.

 

[Amy.G]

The ones who come are the very same ones that the Father gives to His Son.

Yes.

The drawn ones are the ones who come.

One must be drawn in order to come to Christ, but not all who are drawn will come, else all would be saved.



John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Amy.G]

Hey jbh28,

Here is an allegory. A man is drowning in a storm tossed sea. You are in a boat - the only boat. You are the only one in the boat. You really want to save this man - even tho you know that he is a despicable man. He is a man that has done you wrong. Nevertheless, you recognize that any life has value - even his - and that it can be changed to a God-honoring life. You clear everything out of the way so that you can get him in the boat; you brace yourself; you reach out for him. All the despicable man in the water needs to do is reach back and accept the salvation that you freely offer. You reason with him, you show him that you have made the way clear for him to come into the boat. You point out that there are no strings attached. You demonstrate your willingness to die, if you must, in order to help him into the boat. You even plead with him. The man still has to reach out and accept your free offer to save him. Whether he accepts or not - your desire remains to save the man.

The problem with your story is that according to Calvinism, there is no boat for the despicable man. He is left to drown.

 

[The Archangel]

Here is an allegory. A man is drowning in a storm tossed sea. You are in a boat - the only boat. You are the only one in the boat. You really want to save this man - even tho you know that he is a despicable man. He is a man that has done you wrong. Nevertheless, you recognize that any life has value - even his - and that it can be changed to a God-honoring life. You clear everything out of the way so that you can get him in the boat; you brace yourself; you reach out for him. All the despicable man in the water needs to do is reach back and accept the salvation that you freely offer. You reason with him, you show him that you have made the way clear for him to come into the boat. You point out that there are no strings attached. You demonstrate your willingness to die, if you must, in order to help him into the boat. You even plead with him. The man still has to reach out and accept your free offer to save him. Whether he accepts or not - your desire remains to save the man.

The problem with your story is that according to Calvinism, there is no boat for the despicable man. He is left to drown.

You are both quite wrong. According to Calvinism, there is, in fact a boat. The problem is not with the boat or anything or anyone in the boat.

The flaw with the analogy is that man(kind) is not drowning. Mankind has already drowned and is lying dead at the bottom of the ocean.

Non-believers are not in need of a life preserver. Non-believers are in need of life, for they are dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)

The Archangel

 

[asterisktom]

The flaw with the analogy is that man(kind) is not drowning. Mankind has already drowned and is lying dead at the bottom of the ocean.

Non-believers are not in need of a life preserver. Non-believers are in need of life, for they are dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)

The Archangel

Thank you, Archangel. That is it exactly. I get so tired of that analogy because it is wrong on several levels. We need to think more of ourselves as having been helpless and dead, like the skeletons in the Valley of Dry Bones, Ezek. 37.

 

[Darrenss1]

The Lord has the right, since He is indeed the LORD, to save those whom He wishes. He doesn't have to save any. But thanks to His great mercy some are saved. He mercies some and hardens others -- that's the God of the Bible.BTW, He is the only God, so if you have a problem with that -- you have a major issue with Him. He doesn't take kindly to those who disregard His sovereign right to what whatsoever He wishes.

Thank you, you have just illustrated exactly my point regarding the Calvinist position. Indeed some can be a lot more nasty but you have mastered the core argument. Good job.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

I'm afraid your grammar is in error and you are reading your presupposition into it. The plain reading a child can understand is saying in order to be raised up on the last day, one must come to Christ (v. 40) but no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father (v.44).

Anything added to that or taken away from that is pure eisegesis. It is not even addressing who is or who can be drawn.

Such a simple thing yet a Calvinist cannot accept the plain reading of it.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

So in your opinion, do you think God is able to save those that never get saved?

Your question makes no logical sense. Where did you jump to the assumption of an assurance that someone can never get saved. This is a case of trying to question me according to your own doctrinal view. Eg, can God save someone He never intended to save?

Darren

 

[webdog]

You are both quite wrong. According to Calvinism, there is, in fact a boat. The problem is not with the boat or anything or anyone in the boat.

The flaw with the analogy is that man(kind) is not drowning. Mankind has already drowned and is lying dead at the bottom of the ocean.

Non-believers are not in need of a life preserver. Non-believers are in need of life, for they are dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)

The Archangel

The flaw with your analogy is spiritual death is never described the way calvinists describe it. It means separation from God, not a spiritual corpse. Hell to a spiritual corpse is meaningless.

 

[webdog]

Thank you, Archangel. That is it exactly. I get so tired of that analogy because it is wrong on several levels. We need to think more of ourselves as having been helpless and dead, like the skeletons in the Valley of Dry Bones, Ezek. 37.

Now you have the conundrum of a corpse being held accountable and punished for being a corpse.

 

[asterisktom]

Now you have the conundrum of a corpse being held accountable and punished for being a corpse.

The corpse is not only dead. It is dead in sin. That is the difference.

 

[webdog]

The corpse is not only dead. It is dead in sin. That is the difference.

Same conundrum applies as it is the doctrine according to TULIP that states the corpse was created that way.

 

[quantumfaith]

The corpse is not only dead. It is dead in sin. That is the difference.

From whence cometh the sin?

 

[asterisktom]

Same conundrum applies as it is the doctrine according to TULIP that states the corpse was created that way.

No, it is the Bible - the book of Genesis, particularly - that states how we became dead in sin.

 

[webdog]

No, it is the Bible - the book of Genesis, particularly - that states how we became dead in sin.

So the corpse is held accountable for being a corpse and punished for the transgression of someone else. Any form of punishment is meaningless to a corpse, not to mention death is also described as the ceasing or ending of life. Being created dead defies any logic.

 

[asterisktom]

From whence cometh the sin?

From the sinner. You know, people like you and me. Its all there in Genesis, and is laid out for us in detail in Romans (among other places).

 

[asterisktom]

So the corpse is held accountable for being a corpse and punished for the transgression of someone else. Any form of punishment is meaningless to a corpse, not to mention death is also described as the ceasing or ending of life. Being created dead defies any logic.

The corpse metaphor is just that: a metaphor.

 

[Rippon]

One must be drawn in order to come to Christ, but not all who are drawn will come, else all would be saved.

All here refers to a certain group -- not all humanity. Each one who is drawn -- not every person who has and shall live.

 

[Rippon]

Thank you, you have just illustrated exactly my point regarding the Calvinist position. Indeed some can be a lot more nasty but you have mastered the core argument. Good job.

Darren

Go line by line and tell me your objections to my post.

 

[Rippon]

Again, you are understanding John 6:65 in the exact reverse of what it is really saying. It is saying the ones who come were given.

How did I say the reverse of the meaning of this passage? Of course the ones who come were given of the Father to the Son.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Is this verse saying that no man can be given unless he comes? No.

I didn't say what you are trying to pin on me.

Is it saying that no man can come unless it were given him? Yes.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father gives said person to the Son.

So, you are turning the meaning of this verse around to say the opposite of what it is really saying.

Quite the reverse. I don't know how you come up with such distortions of my words. I believe the Scripture.