The sign of the son of man

[lastday]

RAdam,

Now you're getting to the MEAT of truth about the exact time!
The word for "exact time" is found in Rev.11:18 at the 7th Trumpet!!
I've waited for this moment to establish our knowing this time in advance!!!

Would you agree that Matt.24:30 refers to the actual coming of Christ?
Would you agree the 7th Trumpet has the reference to the exact time?
If this is the only reference to the exact time, what do you make of it?
Mel Miller

 

[Tom Butler]

What did RAdam say that got to the meat of the problem?

What was the problem that RAdam got to the meat of? (I know, I shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition. Usually, it is something up with which I will not put.)

Where did RAdam say whatever it was that got to the meat of the problem?

 

[Eagle]

What did RAdam say that got to the meat of the problem?

What was the problem that RAdam got to the meat of? (I know, I shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition. Usually, it is something up with which I will not put.)

Where did RAdam say whatever it was that got to the meat of the problem?

You are hilarious Tom Butler! LOL! :laugh: I am also curious tho, as to what is the problem, containing meat, wherewith, we have got to?

 

[canadyjd]

Would you agree that Matt.24:30 refers to the actual coming of Christ?

Do you believe Matt. 24:30+ is referring to the time of the rapture of the saints?

peace to youraying:

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Eagle and Tom Butler,
Hi Tom, I remember you from back in 2005 on BB Forums.
I resumed in July hoping I am better prepared to dialogue.
I credit realizing we can "know the exact time for the End".
Please refer to:
8/24/2010 - 2:32 PM - #18 - Satan's Co-Conspirators -
RAdam,
His Quote:

If you'll read the context of that section of Matthew 24, as well as Mark 13 and Luke 21, you'll see that Jesus is giving them signs that will be present after 70 AD.
He gave them a very specific sign for the destruction of Jerusalem and then gave them general signs that would occur at all points regularly after Jerusalem's destruction so that they would always be watching and be ready for the return of Christ. He then tells them that they will not know the day and hour of His coming.
It could not be clearer.

I responded:

You have expressed better than I what Jesus intended for Jewish Believers!
They know, better than we, Jesus must come on a Saturday or a Sunday!!
I believe they will suspect Mashiach Yeshua will not appear until Sunday!!!

Then I added, 8/24/2010 - 2:50 PM - #102 - All Israel Saved -
RAdam,
You wrote:

So Jesus really meant no man would know the day/hour until NASA discovered it? Great.

I responded:

AMEN!
The purpose of Christ's cautioning words is to avoid setting the "day or hour"!
The reason is realizing that Israel's time changes as of their twilight Hour!!
They won't know if Christ's appearance is before or during that Hour!!!

I haven't revealed why Messianic Jews know the SC is on Tishri 15 or 16.
The evidence comes from Lev.23:34-39 and a Lunar Eclipse on Tishri 15. Messianic Jews know the Sign of the Son of Man will occur on Tishri 15.
But they will not know whether He will "appear" before or after 6 PM.
If He appears during the Twilight Hour, after 6 PM, it will be Tishri 16.
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,

To be fair to you, I will quote your answer to me from "All Israel Saved"!
This was #103 at 4:05 PM this afternoon as you explained your sarcasm!!
I will not respond to your charge I am a "charlatan who calls Jesus a Liar"!!!
You Wrote:

I was being sarcastic.
The purpose of Christ's words is pretty simple and clear: God will not tell us when the Lord Jesus is coming back. Instead, He wants us to be always watching.
If someone claims to know when Jesus is coming back, he is accusing Jesus of being a liar and is saying he has information that Jesus and consequenty the word of God refuses to give. You, sir, have no idea when Jesus Christ is coming back. You are no different than any number of charlatans who have claimed to know when the Lord would return and were all proven wrong in time. You will similarly as well. The Lord cometh as a thief in the night, and neither you and I know when that will be.

This is a kind of "incendiary" language for which RST terminated my thread!
What is required of me should be required of each member of a BB Forum!!
If I am not to unveil what I think is heresy, I must not be inflammatory!!!
Mel

 

[rsr]

What is required of me should be required of each member of a BB Forum!!
If I am not to unveil what I think is heresy, I must not be inflammatory!!!
Mel

If you believe a member has violated the rules, use the button to report it; do not pour gasoline on the fire.

Do not let this thread deteriorate so that it is summarily closed.

Thank you.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Dear rsr and RAdam,
Thank you rsr; for I believe I now see what my error has been.

Before RAdam charged that "anyone claiming to know when Christ is coming is a liar", he could only be talking about not knowing the exact "day and hour" and I agreed.
Either he did not accept my agreement or I did not allow that he had changed from using "day/hour" to that of "when He comes", i.e., that perhaps he meant the exact moment instead of day/hour. In that case, I was even wrong to question whether he thought of me as a "charlatan who calls Jesus a liar".

I had added, 8/24/2010 - 2:50 PM - #102 - All Israel Saved -
RAdam,
You wrote:

So Jesus really meant no man would know the day/hour until NASA discovered it? Great.

[I didn't realize you meant this in sarcasm].
I responded:

AMEN!
The purpose of Christ's cautioning words is to avoid setting the "day or hour"!
The reason is realizing that Israel's time changes as of their twilight Hour!!
They won't know if Christ's appearance is before or during that Hour!!!

[I thought I was still in agreement with you].

But then I again wrongly assumed that your words: "when Christ is coming" meant the same thing as not knowing the "day or hour"! I stuck with the words "day or hour" as the crux of your thoughts instead of asking what exactly you meant by "when Christ is coming"!! Actually, not only in my old age, but all my life, I have been a slow learner"!!!

So please forgive me. I will do my best to improve my attitude. And not be so intense in my responses.
Mel Miller

 

[lastday]

Lastday

canadyjd,
Your response to my question with a question is OK if you wish not to answer.
Originally Posted by lastday

Would you agree that Matt.24:30 refers to the actual coming of Christ?
Do you believe Matt. 24:30+ is referring to the time of the rapture of the saints?
peace to you

Please note that men will "see the sign of the Son of Man before they 'mourn'"
and it seems they see that sign before the Son of Man sends the angels to
"gather the Elect upon, and/or out of, the 4 winds", as Paul puts it, "unto the
Synagogue unto our Lord Jesus Christ"...the meeting place in the sky. I take it the "4 winds" restricts (limits) the entire action of His gathering of the Elect
[from earth and of sending the angels to gather us within the earth's atmosphere "immediately after the great tribulation"] to the meeting place which is also
immediately above the earth. Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31 (and which occurs perhaps 5 or 6 hours after they see the Sign).
2 Thess.2:1. So Luke 21:25-31 should precede Luke 21:36 by a matter of 6-7 hours.

I know many identify the Elect as Jews. My objection to that is "the Jews are those who 'mourn' and are 'left behind' and who will be 'rescued' from
death and from God's wrath". I believe I can prove that His wrath occurs during the Hour of Trial which, I think categorically, must be limited to exactly
ONE HOUR of the "Day that comes like a thief on all mankind on all the face of all the earth"...a Day that ends at "twilight as the Lord comes
with all the Saints". Luke 21:35-36; Zech.14:5-9; I Thess.3:13.

My objection to making the Elect refer to the Jews is that this "gathering happens on the Day Christ appears". On that Day Jesus promised to "raise
up every/all believer(s)". John 6:38-40,44,54. I cannot see Him gathering the Jews "together above (episunago) on the 4 winds to the Synagogue in the air"
(episunagogue) while leaving Believers behind. At the same time, He promises that "all who seek not to save themselves (as Lot's wife did) will be "kept alive
on the Day of His Apocalypse" (Luke 17:30-33) and, backed up by Zechariah and confirmed by Paul, "God will bring ALL the Saints with Jesus" at the gathering
in the air...most likely during the Twilight Hour. Zech.14:5-6; I Thess.4:13-16.
How do you agree or disagree?
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

canadyjd,
Your response to my question with a question is OK if you wish not to answer.
Originally Posted by lastday

Would you agree that Matt.24:30 refers to the actual coming of Christ?
Do you believe Matt. 24:30+ is referring to the time of the rapture of the saints?
peace to you

Please note that men will "see the sign of the Son of Man before they 'mourn'"
and it seems they see that sign before the Son of Man sends the angels to
"gather the Elect upon, and/or out of, the 4 winds", as Paul puts it, "unto the
Synagogue unto our Lord Jesus Christ"...the meeting place in the sky. I take it the "4 winds" restricts (limits) the entire action of His gathering of the Elect
[from earth and of sending the angels to gather us within the earth's atmosphere "immediately after the great tribulation"] to the meeting place which is also
immediately above the earth. Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31 (and which occurs perhaps 5 or 6 hours after they see the Sign).
2 Thess.2:1. So Luke 21:25-31 could precede Luke 21:35-36 by a matter of 6-7 hours.

I know many identify the Elect as Jews. My objection to that is "the Jews are those who 'mourn' and are 'left behind' and who will be 'rescued' from
death and from God's wrath". I believe I can prove that His wrath occurs during the Hour of Trial which, I think categorically, must be limited to exactly
ONE HOUR of the "Day that comes like a thief on all mankind on all the face of all the earth"...a Day that ends at "twilight as the Lord comes
with all the Saints". Luke 21:35-36; Zech.14:5-9; I Thess.3:13.

My objection to making the Elect refer to the Jews is that this "gathering happens on the Day Christ appears". On that Day Jesus promised to "raise
up every/all believer(s)". John 6:38-40,44,54. I cannot see Him gathering the Jews "together above (episunago) on the 4 winds to the Synagogue in the air"
(episunagogue) while leaving Believers behind. At the same time, He promises that "all who seek not to save themselves (as Lot's wife did) will be 'kept alive'
on the Day of His Apocalypse" (Luke 17:30-33) and, backed up by Zechariah and confirmed by Paul, "God will bring ALL the Saints with Jesus" at the gathering
in the air...most likely during the Twilight Hour. Zech.14:5-6; I Thess.4:13-16.
How do you agree or disagree?
Mel

 

[RAdam]

Allow me to respond, since my comments in a totally separate thread have been transposed to this thread with no context supplied. First of all, they were largely misunderstood by lastday the first time around and appear that they still are. Secondly let me say that I resent lastday taking my comments and using them to form a new thread. Finally allow me to reiterate that the bible clearly says that no man or woman can know the time of the coming of our Lord. It will be a thief in the night and we are to be in a state of watchfullness at all times. If you claim to know this time, you are violating the clear language of scripture. I don't care how you try to wiggle past that, it is undeniable. The only people who have ever claimed to know that time were charlatans, plain and simple.

 

[lastday]

RAdam,

I repeat: "I apologize for not recognizing your 'sarcasm' nor your meaning of 'time'".
My other thread was terminated just as we were making points with one another.
I still don't understand what you mean in relating the "time" with the day or hour.
I am willing to discuss why Jesus could return on Tishri 15 or 16 in AD 2033.

Jesus, very soon now, will surely keep His word that "we will know the end is near"!
I don't care to argue; but only to fill in the reasons for concluding what I believe!!
Anyone who has questions is welcome to discuss but only with a good attitude!!!
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends,
It is important to understand why Jesus spoke of "knowing when the End is Near; but also that "no one can know the exact day or hour". Mt.24:33,36.

The temptation for many people is to apply these words of Jesus to present day Believers...days prior to "knowing the End is near"...just like Preterists apply the words of Comfort in 2 Thess.1 to first century Saints instead of all Believers.

Jesus couples these two statements in reference to Endtime Believers who
will "know the End is Near" when Antichrist desecrates the Temple, when ten
kings destroy Mystery Babylon and the Two Prophets arrive from heaven. He
knows they will make the countdown of 1260 days until the Beast kills the Two Prophets...with just 3 or 4 days remaining until the 7th Trumpet sounds that
"God's wrath has come and the APPOINTED TIME to judge and reward the Prophets and Saints, both small and great, and to destroy those who are
destroying the earth". Rev.11:18. The one caution Jesus makes is to NOT think that anyone can predict whether He will appear on Tishri 15 or Tishri 16.

This would be the Last Day on which He will raise up all believers!
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Paul33,
You have given us the breakthrough needed in dealing with Preterism:

On the thread for Christ's Physical Return, you have scored on BullsEye:

Originally Posted by Tom:

OK. I am clear on the fact that you have no difficulties. You would begin to have difficulties
if you realized that you are applying overly-literal fulfillments to spiritual prophecies.

Originally Posted by Paul:

You are extremely literal on these imagery verses, but you are quite stretchy on the word "day".
And you are applying overly-figurative interpretations to literal prophecies.
You are extremely figurative on these prophetic verses, but you are quite literal on the word "day."

Paul has finally UNMASKED and DISARMED Tom of his false View of Scripture:

Tom can's see Jesus gathering the Elect from earth in Mark 13:27!
Nor why the angels literally gather us on four winds in Matt.24:31!!
Nor why the Elect aren't mentioned in Luke 21 when Christ appears!!!

The Elect are not mentioned by Luke because Jesus addresses the Jews!
The Jews will be "jealous and will mourn" when they see us with Jesus!!
They will "beg to escape all these things and to stand before Him"!!!

It is clear why Tom is literal on the word "DAY"!
The Elect will be gathered together above on the DAY He appears!!
The Elect include ALL the Martyrs of Jesus and ALL who survive to the END!!!


This SCENE will be the MOST SPECTACULAR EVENT IN HISTORY!
Tom would "spiritualize" God's great and wonderful Plan!!
God's Plan is Glorious and Real; not Ethereal!!!
Mel

 

[RAdam]

Do you believe Matthew 24:15 has yet to be fullfilled?

 

[lastday]

RAdam,
I believe Matt.24:15 will be fulfilled 42 months before Christ is revealed from heaven
because vs.21 requires that it is the start of the greatest time of tribulation ever to
be experienced in history and verses 29-31 reveal these 42 months end with Christ coming in personal power and glory with all the Saints from heaven and witnessed by
men during the "Hour of Trial coming on ALL mankind on ALL the face of ALL the earth".
Mel

 

[RAdam]

I figured you would say that. The problem with your view of a future fulfillment is the language of Daniel 9 (to which Jesus is referring) and the parallel passage in Luke 21, both of which demand that this was fulfilled in AD 70.

 

[lastday]

RAdam,

The problem with your view of a future fulfillment is the language of Daniel 9 (to which Jesus is referring) and the parallel passage in Luke 21, both of which demand that this was fulfilled in AD 70.

Luke 21 doesn't mention the great tribulation of Matt.24:15,21,29.
Luke 21:22-24 applies primarily to Israel from AD 70 to the End of Time.
Luke 21:25-36 occurs when Matt.24:29-31 is fulfilled at the End of 42 months.

My turn:
Before I prove the DAY of Luke 21:35 is the same DAY as Matt.24:36!
Please tell me why you think Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled entirely by AD 70!!
Also tell me why Dan.9:26 applies to the Day of Christ's Triumphal Entry!!!
Mel

 

[RAdam]

I'll be glad to, but first I want to make this point. Luke 21:20-25 and Matthew 24:15-22 are parallel passages. A quick view of them side by side show this. The only reason anyone would argue otherwise is if they had already formed a view of the passage from Matthew 24 which was yet to be fulfilled.

Now, on to Daniel 9. The whole of the 70 weeks deals with the second period of Jewish nationalism. It begins with the end of the 70 years captivity, which marked the end of the first period of the Jewish nation, and reaches unto the days of Messiah. The key feature of this prophecy is Messiah. 69 weeks reach "unto Messiah the Prince." Many take this to mean either the crucifixion or the triumphant entry. However, the prophecy is pointing to His baptism, when He was annointed and declared to be Messiah. This declaration came from John, God the Father, and God the Holy Ghost. Later, in Luke 4, Jesus declares Himself to be Messiah when He reads a passage from Isaiah 61. That passage declares, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath annointed me to preach the gospel to the poor..."

Now, when we get to verse 27 in Daniel 9 we get to the crux of the matter. We are told, "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The "he" is the subject of much disagreement among Christians. Let it be noted that "he" is a singular personal pronoun. The only singular personal noun in the foregoing verses is "Messiah the Prince." The only other personal noun is a plural personal noun, "the people of the prince that shall come." The "he" must be referring to Messiah. Any other view denies the language of the passage. Then we see what he would do. Well, the text says he would confirm the covenant with many for one week. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. In the midst of the week he would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Here is an interesting thing: half a week is 3 and a half days. According to the day = year fact established for this prophecy, half a week = 3 and a half years. Now, if the 69th week ended at His baptism, 3 and a half years later He would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. We see that very thing happening. 3 and a half years after His baptism Jesus is crucified, at which time the old testament system of sacrifices is fulfilled in Him and is to be discarded. Then we see that, even after His death, the gospel is preached to the Jew first. We then find that, in connection with His ministry, and that of His apostles and preachers, the city of Jerusalem and the temple (the city and sanctuary) are destroyed by "the people of the prince that shall come" after the continued rejection of the message of Jesus Christ by the Jewish people. One note on that: it is well documented that Titus did not desire to destroy the temple, but that his army did it against his orders. Thus, the sanctuary wasn't destroyed by Titus, but by his army, the "people of the prince that shall come."

Really, I have kind of blazed through so much, because there is so much to that prophecy. The thing of that prophecy is it has been fulfilled. Any other view tends to obscure and distort that section of scripture. Of particular note here is the preaching of Jesus on that final passover trip to Jerusalem, from His pronouncement of coming doom in Luke 19 through the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Winman]

The problem with this view is that the Roman's did not attack Jerusalem in 70 A.D. for Jesus's sake.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Christian's were not persecuted and hated by "all nations" in 70 A.D..

Jesus also said the gospel will be preached in all the world before this takes place.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Say what you will, the gospel was not preached to all the world and all nations in 70 A.D.. And the Romans did not attack Jersualem for Jesus's sake.