Do Molecules have Free Will?

[The Archangel]

There is not an earthquake which God didn't bring to pass. There is not a flood or hurricane which God doesn't control. There is not a death that he has not appointed.

God uses evil as a backdrop to display the glory of his goodness.

And if men must suffer in the process this is a small price to pay for that which is most valuable in all the universe- God's glory.

This is simply not so. I have already posted scripture from Ezekiel where the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal, and twice God said that he never commanded this, and that it never came into his heart or mind.

You think you are praising God and making him sovereign when you are falsely charging him with sin.

Winman,

You are hopelessly wrong. Consider Amos 3:6b:

Does disaster come to a city,
unless the Lord has done it?
​

The answer is, of course, "No." When disaster comes to a city, it is the Lord who has done it.

Consider Job. After Job's property was taken and his children killed what did he say:

20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. (Job 1:20-22)

​

According to Job, who did these things to him? God did. And to say so is not sinful because we are specifically told "In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong."


And when Job lost his health and his wife encouraged him to curse God and die what did he say:

10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil [or calamity]?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips. (Job 2:10)

​

Notice what Job says about God. God caused the evil [or calamity] in Job's life and Job says so. It is not misrepresenting God to say so because, again, the text clearly says "in all this Job did not sin with his lips."

So, when an earthquake, hurricane, tornado, bolt of lightning, etc. should adversely affect anyone it is God that has done it.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

Jeremiah 32:31-35 ‘For this city has been to Me a provocation of My anger and My fury from the day that they built it, even to this day; so I will remove it from before My face. 32 ‘because of all the evil of the children of Israel and the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me to anger; they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 ‘And they have turned to Me the back, and not the face; though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not listened to receive instruction. 34 ‘But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin

 

[Amy.G]

Consider Job. After Job's property was taken and his children killed what did he say:

20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. (Job 1:20-22)

​

According to Job, who did these things to him? God did. And to say so is not sinful because we are specifically told "In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong."


And when Job lost his health and his wife encouraged him to curse God and die what did he say:

10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil [or calamity]?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips. (Job 2:10)

​

Notice what Job says about God. God caused the evil [or calamity] in Job's life and Job says so. It is not misrepresenting God to say so because, again, the text clearly says "in all this Job did not sin with his lips."



The Archangel

Yes, you are misrepresenting God to say so because God didn't do it. Satan did.

God removed His hedge of protection for a period of time, but Satan did the evil to Job, not God.

Also, if you continue reading, Job did sin. He became self righteous.


Elihu is speaking:
Job 33:8-12 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying, I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me. Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy, He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths. Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.

 

[The Archangel]

Yes, you are misrepresenting God to say so because God didn't do it. Satan did.

God removed His hedge of protection for a period of time, but Satan did the evil to Job, not God.

Also, if you continue reading, Job did sin. He became self righteous.


Elihu is speaking:
Job 33:8-12 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying, I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me. Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy, He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths. Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.

Not at all. You are missing the point. Job himself credits God with doing these things. That's not an interpretation, the text explicitly says it. In the first three chapters, Job never charges Satan with doing evil to him. On the other hand, Job does say that God "has taken away."

As for Satan's role...I think Martin Luther said: Satan may be the devil, but he's God's devil.

In all actuality, there is no getting around Job's words in the first two chapters where he explicitly states--on two separate occasions--that God has done what was done to him.

The Archangel

 

[Luke2427]

That is a very early Old Testament way of thinking ie. "God tormented Saul with evil spirits". But this concept of God is the first cause of everything is not found in the theology of the New Testament.

In fact I would say the opposite is true. God through Jesus is victorious in spite of the evil that exists. Demons are mentioned, a warfare of good and evil is ongoing. Demons "believe" God and tremble.

I used New Testament examples. Why you call it Old Testament thinking is beyond me. Jesus said the blind man was had been blind all of his life, not for any sin in his parents life but simply that God's glory might be made manifest.

Are you unwilling to accept the premise that the suffering of man is a small price to pay for the glory of Christ?

Do you deny that the Bible says, "God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will"?

Do you ignore the theological attribute of God's omnipotence- that ALL power is his?

Your post does not even address the arguments I made. It is just a drive-by post.

This is a debate site. You are supposed to make arguments and I am supposed to address them. Then visa versa.

Address the arguments and then make one of your own.

 

[Luke2427]

Jeremiah 32:31-35 ‘For this city has been to Me a provocation of My anger and My fury from the day that they built it, even to this day; so I will remove it from before My face. 32 ‘because of all the evil of the children of Israel and the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me to anger; they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 ‘And they have turned to Me the back, and not the face; though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not listened to receive instruction. 34 ‘But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin

Yes, that is fine Bible quoting. But you did not tell us what you think it means.

Are you saying GOD DID NOT KNOW THAT THEY WOULD DO THIS??????

Is that what you think it means when it says "nor did it come into my mind". Because if you do think that is what it means you put yourself awfully close to the open theists.

Don't just quote a verse. Every one of us have read the Bible through plenty of times. What good is it to post a verse that all of us are familiar with? How does that make a point to bible scholars like I figure most of us on here are?

Make a point- don't just quote a verse that we all know. The point of debate is to make points.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, you are misrepresenting God to say so because God didn't do it. Satan did.

God removed His hedge of protection for a period of time, but Satan did the evil to Job, not God.

Also, if you continue reading, Job did sin. He became self righteous.


Elihu is speaking:
Job 33:8-12 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying, I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me. Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy, He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths. Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.

Amy, the words of Elihu are riddled with error. They are quoted so the reader can get a picture of what these miserable comforters were doing to Job. God later comes in and upbraids these friends for their words. Elihu is the one speaking when God interrupts in 38:1 to Job saying "Who is this that obscures my counsel with ignorant words."

For goodness sake, Amy, don't quote Elihu authoritatively when God Himself said his words were "ignorant".

Job did sin. God pointed it out. Use that- not Elihu's words.

But either way it seems off topic.

The point is that God did bring about Job's suffering though he did it through his power he has loaned to Satan. Satan could not hurt job because God is Sovereign over all. Then Satan could hurt Job because God is Sovereign over all. God was in complete control of Job's suffering.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, that is fine Bible quoting. But you did not tell us what you think it means.

Are you saying GOD DID NOT KNOW THAT THEY WOULD DO THIS??????

Is that what you think it means when it says "nor did it come into my mind". Because if you do think that is what it means you put yourself awfully close to the open theists.

Don't just quote a verse. Every one of us have read the Bible through plenty of times. What good is it to post a verse that all of us are familiar with? How does that make a point to bible scholars like I figure most of us on here are?

Make a point- don't just quote a verse that we all know. The point of debate is to make points.

Luke: I guess I should not "assume" that anything is self-evident to everyone. My point is, as I have stated earlier (in this thread, I think)
"foreknowledge is not equivalent to foreordination". I certainly believe God "knows all", but I remain "unconvinced" that He "ordains" all in the sense of micromanaging every event and decision that occurs in human history.

It seems pretty clear for me, from this scripture reference, that it was not the "intent" of God that this idol worship occur, did he know that it would, certainly, did He "cause" it to occur, I think not. Can he use it and still accomplish his "will", yes, that is why He is God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, that is fine Bible quoting. But you did not tell us what you think it means.

Are you saying GOD DID NOT KNOW THAT THEY WOULD DO THIS??????

Is that what you think it means when it says "nor did it come into my mind". Because if you do think that is what it means you put yourself awfully close to the open theists.

How about not making personal assumptions and assertions. Am I an "open theist", no. Although, I do not hold that postion, I have "respect" for someone who may, provided they claim a relationship with God through faith in Christ. All the rest is the job of Diety.

Don't just quote a verse. Every one of us have read the Bible through plenty of times. What good is it to post a verse that all of us are familiar with? How does that make a point to bible scholars like I figure most of us on here are?

Not sure your frame of mine, if snippy, then you may just tone it down a bit. Scripture says enough, doesnt it, no matter which side of the theological aisle you happen to be on. Sometime commentary makes no contribution to the point.

Make a point- don't just quote a verse that we all know. The point of debate is to make points.

Thank you Mr. Bible scholar, I do not consider myself as such. Rather, just a "beggar trying to help another find a place to get a crumb"

 

[Luke2427]

Thank you Mr. Bible scholar, I do not consider myself as such. Rather, just a "beggar trying to help another find a place to get a crumb"

Then you probably should not post on a website devoted to debate primarily on Bible issues.

A scholar is:

a learned person, especially an academic specialist in one area of knowledge

If you are not a learned person who specializes in the Scripture you really should not post here, should you?

What benefit is an unlearned post to a discussion such as this?

What benefit is a post by a learned person who has no proficiency for the Bible.

There is no need to paint yourself to be a humble person by making these claims. Making comments that make one seem humbel is the opposite of true humility.

Neither is there a need to paint one's comments to be arrogant who is stating facts.

I want a doctor to TELL me he is a doctor. I don't want to wonder about the man about to cut me open. If he lacks the confidence to call himself what he is then I doubt his credentials.

I certainly don't say to a doctor- well Mr. Smarty pants. I'm not as smart as you are!

That would make me extraordinarily insecure.

 

[quantumfaith]

Then you probably should not post on a website devoted to debate primarily on Bible issues.

A scholar is:


If you are not a learned person who specializes in the Scripture you really should not post here, should you?

What benefit is an unlearned post to a discussion such as this?

What benefit is a post by a learned person who has no proficiency for the Bible.

There is no need to paint yourself to be a humble person by making these claims. Making comments that make one seem humbel is the opposite of true humility.

Neither is there a need to paint one's comments to be arrogant who is stating facts.

I want a doctor to TELL me he is a doctor. I don't want to wonder about the man about to cut me open. If he lacks the confidence to call himself what he is then I doubt his credentials.

I certainly don't say to a doctor- well Mr. Smarty pants. I'm not as smart as you are!

That would make me extraordinarily insecure.

You are entitled to your positions and comments, and I an entitled to mine. I will continue to post comments as I see fit.

 

[quantumfaith]

Then you probably should not post on a website devoted to debate primarily on Bible issues.

A scholar is:


If you are not a learned person who specializes in the Scripture you really should not post here, should you?

What benefit is an unlearned post to a discussion such as this?

What benefit is a post by a learned person who has no proficiency for the Bible.

There is no need to paint yourself to be a humble person by making these claims. Making comments that make one seem humbel is the opposite of true humility.

Neither is there a need to paint one's comments to be arrogant who is stating facts.

I want a doctor to TELL me he is a doctor. I don't want to wonder about the man about to cut me open. If he lacks the confidence to call himself what he is then I doubt his credentials.

I certainly don't say to a doctor- well Mr. Smarty pants. I'm not as smart as you are!

That would make me extraordinarily insecure.

BTW: This is baptistboard.com, not baptistboardbiblescholar.com. This is a place for debate, discussion and spirtual/intellectual give and take for the purpose of learning, stretching and refinement of each ones theological positions. My, what a "pastoral heart" you are exemplifying toward me.

 

[Luke2427]

BTW: This is baptistboard.com, not baptistboardbiblescholar.com. This is a place for debate, discussion and spirtual/intellectual give and take for the purpose of learning, stretching and refinement of each ones theological positions. My, what a "pastoral heart" you are exemplifying toward me.

Every layman and minister ought to be a bible scholar. His life should be one great study of the Word of God and the God of the Word. That makes him a Bible scholar. I assume that most on this board read their bibles daily, go to church and study them weekly, meditate on their truths hourly. Most have read their Bibles through multiple times. These are the characteristics of a scholar- one whose life long work is devoted to a particular study.

So really what place does someone who does not at least meet these qualifications have posting authoritatively on a section called "Baptist theology and Bible Study".

The reason I seemed short was because I resented the smirk you made insinuating that I was arrogant because I called most on this site bible scholars. And I felt your comments about you just being a poor beggar showing people how to get crumbs unlike those of us who consider ourselves life long students of the Bible- I felt it struck a chord of pseudo-humility. Almost like- Well smarty pants, let me show you how humble I am!

If I misinterpreted- I apologize.:thumbs:

Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant when I called us scholars.
Perhpas it would have been better to clarify with some parenthetical statement like (by scholars I do not mean seminary students- I mean those who have studied the Bible for years and make it their life long passion). Maybe my ambiguity is the cause of this contention.

If so- I am sorry.

 

[quantumfaith]

Every layman and minister ought to be a bible scholar. His life should be one great study of the Word of God and the God of the Word. That makes him a Bible scholar. I assume that most on this board read their bibles daily, go to church and study them weekly, meditate on their truths hourly. Most have read their Bibles through multiple times. These are the characteristics of a scholar- one whose life long work is devoted to a particular study.

So really what place does someone who does not at least meet these qualifications have posting authoritatively on a section called "Baptist theology and Bible Study".

The reason I seemed short was because I resented the smirk you made insinuating that I was arrogant because I called most on this site bible scholars. And I felt your comments about you just being a poor beggar showing people how to get crumbs unlike those of us who consider ourselves life long students of the Bible- I felt it struck a chord of pseudo-humility. Almost like- Well smarty pants, let me show you how humble I am!

If I misinterpreted- I apologize.:thumbs:

Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant when I called us scholars.
Perhpas it would have been better to clarify with some parenthetical statement like (by scholars I do not mean seminary students- I mean those who have studied the Bible for years and make it their life long passion). Maybe my ambiguity is the cause of this contention.

If so- I am sorry.

I also apologize, and hope we can exchange positions, interpretations and insights in an honest, straightforward and gentle approach form this point going forward. While and when we do not agree, at least respect the honesty and committment to Christ that we do share with one another.

Mercy, Peace and Love in abundance.

 

[Winman]

Yes, that is fine Bible quoting. But you did not tell us what you think it means.

Are you saying GOD DID NOT KNOW THAT THEY WOULD DO THIS??????

Is that what you think it means when it says "nor did it come into my mind". Because if you do think that is what it means you put yourself awfully close to the open theists.

Don't just quote a verse. Every one of us have read the Bible through plenty of times. What good is it to post a verse that all of us are familiar with? How does that make a point to bible scholars like I figure most of us on here are?

Make a point- don't just quote a verse that we all know. The point of debate is to make points.

Luke, having knowledge of something does not make one responsible. My car was built with the ability to far exceed all posted speed limits. In fact, it was necessary to build it this way so that it could easily cruise at posted limits without causing over stress to the engine. That does not make Honda responsible if I drive 100 MPH and run stop signs. Did Honda know that some people would use the ability built into the car to exceed the posted speed limits? Of course. But again, that does not make them responsible for my behavior.

According to your way of thinking, because God gave men free will, then God is responsible whenever men sin. And by this same thinking, man is not responsible for his sin. So, you have shifted personal responsibility off of man and onto God.

This type of thinking is a fallacy and illogical. Just because I was given the ability to exercise free will by God does not make God responsible when I use this freedom to commit sin, just as Honda is not responsible when I drive over the speed limit simply because they built a car that could exceed the speed limits.

God of course knew the Jews were committing this sin, that is obvious. But God said he never commanded it, nor did this idea come into his heart and mind. He did not put this thought in the Jews mind, the scriptures say God NEVER tempts ANY man to sin, EVER.

The one and only reason you cannot understand this is because you have been blinded by a false doctrine that denies men have free will to act independently of God.

 

[Amy.G]

Anyone who has ever raised a child knows there is a difference between allowing your child to fail and causing your child to fail.

There were times when I allowed my son to make a decision knowing full well he was making a big mistake, but that's part of the growing process. He learned from his mistakes.

God allows evil, but He never causes it. He can't. He is always righteous and His ways are always just.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, having knowledge of something does not make one responsible. My car was built with the ability to far exceed all posted speed limits. In fact, it was necessary to build it this way so that it could easily cruise at posted limits without causing over stress to the engine. That does not make Honda responsible if I drive 100 MPH and run stop signs. Did Honda know that some people would use the ability built into the car to exceed the posted speed limits? Of course. But again, that does not make them responsible for my behavior.

According to your way of thinking, because God gave men free will, then God is responsible whenever men sin. And by this same thinking, man is not responsible for his sin. So, you have shifted personal responsibility off of man and onto God.

This type of thinking is a fallacy and illogical. Just because I was given the ability to exercise free will by God does not make God responsible when I use this freedom to commit sin, just as Honda is not responsible when I drive over the speed limit simply because they built a car that could exceed the speed limits.

God of course knew the Jews were committing this sin, that is obvious. But God said he never commanded it, nor did this idea come into his heart and mind. He did not put this thought in the Jews mind, the scriptures say God NEVER tempts ANY man to sin, EVER.

The one and only reason you cannot understand this is because you have been blinded by a false doctrine that denies men have free will to act independently of God.

Do you believe God is in control of all things or are there things he has no control over whatsoever?

Do you believe that all power is God's power or is there power in the universe that is not his?

Do you believe that God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will?

Do you believe that in Him we live and move and have our being?

Do you believe that he is before all things and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST?

If you do then your system is riddled with logical fallacies.

The one and only reason you cannot understand this is because you have been blinded by a false doctrine that denies men have free will to act independently of God

Two things:
This "false doctrine" is the doctrine of Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, Carey, Augustine, Luther and a host of other men to whom we owe a great deal for our Christian heritage.

2. Free Will is not promised any where in the Bible. Any passage you can bring to bear will only be one in which you think it is implied. There will be no passage in the entire Bible that clearly says- Men have the ability to do good or evil freely.

In fact, what you have is that all men are bound to do what is in their nature to do- that is evil. You find that there are none that seeketh after God. You find that a leopard cannot change his spots and the ethiopian his skin- neither can he that is accustomed to doing evil do that which is good.
You find that there are NONE that doeth good.

Free Will is a misnomer. Men can only do what they want to do. Men only want to do that which is evil.

Prediction: you will bring to bear several passages which you will demand teach free will but they will actually only seem to imply free will to you because of your preconceived notions.

 

[Salty]

What offends me is getting off (my) OP. This is a general discussion not A vs C.

Okay, another thing that offends me is a SS teacher just reading verbatim out of the book during SS. It should be ONLY a guide, often the Bible is put under the chair, not the SS Quarterly.

Note - should there be more than 2 responses to this " offense" please start a new thread.
And now to new "offenses"