What led me to preterism....

[Winman]

It comes down to this for me. Jesus said that before they had went through the entirety of the cities of Israel, He would return. Did He lie?

This could have been fulfilled when Jesus appeared to Saul (Paul).

Acts 1:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

When Jesus spoke to his disciples of persecution, he said it would be for his name's sake. The Romans did not attack Jerusalem in 70 A.D. because of Jesus.

But this great persecution led by Saul was for Jesus's sake. And it shows the believers as being scattered "throughout" the regions of Judaea and Samaria, so it is fairly safe to assume they were fleeing to cities throughout the region. In fact, we know some fled Israel altogether, this is why Saul was going to Damascus.

Did Jesus come? Yes. He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

This account fits Jesus's prophesy far better than 70 A.D.. We are told it was a "great persecution", we are told that the believers were scatted throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria and other countries as well. We see that Saul consulted with the leaders in Damascus. And we see that Jesus came. This is not what we think of as the second coming, but he came nevertheless and effectively saved the Christians from this persecution, Saul being the leader.

I do not understand why no one ever points to this great persecution and Jesus appearing to Saul as a partial fulfillment of the prophesies he gave his disciples. This account fits his prophesy far better than 70 A.D. and is directly shown in scripture.

 

[webdog]

It comes down to this for me. Jesus said that before they had went through the entirety of the cities of Israel, He would return. Did He lie?

Of course He didn't lie...you just don't understand Him

 

[Winman]

Matt 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Was this prophesy fulfilled in the great persecution of the church under Saul (Paul)?

Were believer's delivered up to councils and scourged in the synagogues? Yes.

Were they brought before governors and kings? There is evidence of this, Saul had letters from the leaders to capture believers in Damascus.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

So, it is shown Saul was working with the leaders and governors in this persecution.

Did brother deliver up brother and father deliver up child? We have no direct confirmation of this, but it is fairly safe to assume it happened. It is certain that when some Jews believed on Jesus it caused division within the family. It is not a stretch to believe that some may have betrayed family members who had converted to Christ over to Saul. This was called a "great persecution".

Were they hated for Jesus's name sake? Yes. This was not the reason the Romans attacked in 70 A.D. whatsoever.

And Jesus said when you are persecuted in this city, flee to another. This is exactly what is shown in Acts 9. And also notice that Jesus simply said, "till the Son of Man be come". Jesus mentioned nothing here of coming on the clouds in power or with his angels. He simply said he would come and nothing more.

Many prophesies seem to have a double fulfillment. And this might be the case here. I believe there will be a persecution of Jews who convert to Christ in the tribulation, but we may have seen a preview of this in the great persecution under Saul. It is a picture of the future yet to come.

 

[HankD]

It comes down to this for me. Jesus said that before they had went through the entirety of the cities of Israel, He would return. Did He lie?

No. There are several possibilities by way of explanation.

e.g. They have done their part but He has delayed His return
(another possibility will be presented below).

While questions like this do pose a difficulty, my premise is that preterism also has difficulties with certain singular passages of Scripture.

Yours is a valid question but I have one also.

e.g. The passage I keep bringing up:

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

1. This same Jesus - Not Titus, son of Vespasian.
2. Taken into heaven shall come in like manner as He went - from heaven, though the atmosphere and not from across the land mass from Rome.

Did the angel lie about who would return and the manner in which He would do so?

William it's not a matter of a "lie" but the proper interpretation of Scripture as the Scripture is inerrant.

There must be a way to reconcile these apparent conflicts.

In the passage you focus upon, yes, it appears that Jesus was saying what you suggest, if of course, by "ye" He spoke specifically to those who were listening or generally to that generation of believing Jews during the Tribulation upon His return.

However, the literalness of Acts 1:11 is just as pronounced as are several others and cannot be ignored or glossed over.

Also (IMO) full preterism has serious theological problems with the continuing existence of sin and death in the present world.

I have given my response to your question concerning Matthew 10:23.
How do you repond to mine concerning the Acts 1:11 passage?


Thanks
HankD

 

[ReformedBaptist]

arguments like this:

http://americanvision.org/3445/are-we-living-in-the-last-days/

You mean a rehearsal of what this guy and that guy said? The article is likely convincing to you becaue you are already convinced!

Someone with bible knowledge can sneeze and refute dispensationalism and futurism off the spittle. lol I don't find the article convincing at all. Was there even an original thought?

 

[RAdam]

Hank hit on a very important point that shouldn't be ignored. It is the idea of bringing up a certain problem passage for a view of the end times, and acting like there are no problem passages for your view. The truth is both futurism and preterism have problems with various passages of scripture. The funny thing is, they both claim the Olivet Discourse and both have significant problems fitting everything in that discourse into either view. The reason is some things concern AD 70 and some a future (to us) event.

 

[percho]

Would someone list ALL the cities of Israel for me??

 

[Winman]

Would someone list ALL the cities of Israel for me??

Here is a good site with multitudes of maps of ancient Middle East.

http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=22&sub=298&cat_name=Maps+&+Geography&subcat_name=Biblical

 

[lastday]

Lastday

HankD and RAdam,
Observation:

Hank hit on a very important point that shouldn't be ignored. It is the idea of bringing up a certain problem passage for a view of the end times, and acting like there are no problem passages for your view. The truth is both futurism and preterism have problems with various passages of scripture. The funny thing is, they both claim the Olivet Discourse and both have significant problems fitting everything in that discourse into either view. The reason is some things concern AD 70 and some a future (to us) event.

One of the "Problem Passages" for Preterists is Matt.16:27-28 even though
they claim it's a problem for Futurists. Jesus states that the "Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with the angels and then (tote) He will reward every believer according to his conduct".

Preterists claim this promise is for Believers since AD 70 by "spiritualizing" the Presence of Christ. Instead, His Presence includes the visible gathering by the angels of all the Elect so that "every eye sees us coming" with Jesus. "Then" Jesus will rescue "Ephraim/Judah" (Israel/Judah), His former people, whom Hosea predicts will seek His face and live before Him after 2 days...on the 3rd day". That "3rd" day has not yet arrived because the Jews are still suffering "the days of God's vengeance...until all things written are fulfilled"! Luke 21:22.

What Preterists can't do is explain the proactive condition that Jews must suffer the "wrath" (Luke 21:23) of Gentiles until the "fullness of the Gentiles has come" (Rom.11:25) and the final 3.5 times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24) are fulfilled with armies gathered to Armageddon and Believers "watching for Christ's coming as a thief"!! Rev.16:15-16.

Preterists stumble (create their own problem) by misplacing the time-period for "some of those standing here who must taste death", as stated in vs.28 of our passage, before Christ can come in "Kingdom Power"...Mark 9:1. The setting for His demonstration of "God's Kingdom Power" is the 3.5 times to which Jesus refers in Luke 21:24. This is confirmed in Rev.12:10-11 where Believers are still tasting death during the final period of 1260 days of "Christ's Authority" to be displayed by Elijah as one of the 2 Witnesses whom all the world will observe as they suddenly arise from death and ascend to heaven. Preterists, again, must "spiritualize" the Two Prophets as "tasting death AFTER they have manifested God's Kingdom Power, as well as countering Satan's wrath, for 3.5 (kairos) times!!! Luke 21:24; Rev.12:12-14.
Mel Miller

 

[Grasshopper]

Hank hit on a very important point that shouldn't be ignored. It is the idea of bringing up a certain problem passage for a view of the end times,

But you ignore the bigger problem. The Bible clearly teaches the "end time"/"last days" were a 1st century occurance.

and acting like there are no problem passages for your view. The truth is both futurism and preterism have problems with various passages of scripture. The funny thing is, they both claim the Olivet Discourse and both have significant problems fitting everything in that discourse into either view.

Preterist have no problems fitting the Discourse into a 1st century fulfillment.

The reason is some things concern AD 70 and some a future (to us) event.

Easy to type it, more difficult to prove it. Care to prove it?

 

[Logos1]

Absolute proof of Christ's return no later than 70 AD

It comes down to this for me. Jesus said that before they had went through the entirety of the cities of Israel, He would return. Did He lie?

You have pointed out proof positive of Christ’s return no later than 70 AD—otherwise we are still living under the Law.

Just think about it—this is very simple.

When the bible talks about Israel it is referring only to the Israel that is in a covenant relationship with God. The Old Covenant ended in 70 AD. This would force the return of Christ to be no later than 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and the Old Covenant ended.

Christ didn’t lie—so he had to come back while there was still an Israel in existence he was referring to and that Israel came to and end in 70 AD.

I think you have just made the correct argument than many skeptics on this board needed to become full Preterists.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

[J.D.]

You, and that article, make the mistake of assuming that the only two options are dispensationalism or hyper-preterism. I'm neither of those.

Full preterism encompasses multiple damnable heresies. It goes against Holy Scripture and against what the Church has taught throughout history. It is also against the Baptist Faith and Message. Full preterists should be given the opportunity to repent, and if they don't they should be excommunicated out of their churches via church discipline.

I'm going to make strongly worded statements condemning the damnable heresies of full preterism:

1. If any man denies the future, physical Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

2. If any man denies the future, physical, bodily resurrection and judgment of all men at the Second Coming, let him be anathema.

3. If any man denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, including Jesus having a physical, glorified human body as part of His post-resurrection human nature, let him be anathema.

This is inappropriate. And by the way, Gary Demar is not a "full" preterist. But he probably would earn an anathema from you for some other reason if you knew all of his views. Let's go with theonomy. That's it - He's a bloody THEONOMIST! Let him go to Hell!!!

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends,
Preterists stumble (create their own problem) by misplacing the time-period for many "of those standing here who
must taste death", as implied in vs.28 of our passage, "before Christ could come in His Kingdom" at AD 70; but that some
must die after Christ comes in Kingdom Power"...Mark 9:1. Instead, the setting for His demonstration of "God's Kingdom
Power" is the 3.5 times at the End of the Age; at the "completion of Gentile times" to which Jesus refers in Luke 21:24!!!

Jesus confirms this to John in Rev.12:10-11 where many Believers taste death during the final period of 1260 days of
Christ's Authority. "Some will die" during three final days until the Two Prophets arise. Rev.11:7-11. His Kingdom Power
and Authority will be displayed by Elijah as one of the Two Witnesses whom all the world will observe as they suddenly
arise from death and ascend to heaven. Preterists deny the Two Prophets literally "taste death AFTER they manifest God's Kingdom Power", as well as counter Satan's wrath for 3.5 (kairos) times or 1260 Endtime Days. Luke 21:24; Rev.12:12-14.

 

[RAdam]

But you ignore the bigger problem. The Bible clearly teaches the "end time"/"last days" were a 1st century occurance.



Preterist have no problems fitting the Discourse into a 1st century fulfillment.




Easy to type it, more difficult to prove it. Care to prove it?

Actually, we are in the last days right now. The bible says believers are to always look for His coming since it will be as a thief in the night.

Really? Preterists have no problem fitting all of the Olivet Discourse into AD 70?

Jesus first gave His disciples a clear sign of AD 70 and told them when they saw this sign to leave Jerusalem and Judea and never come back. Then Jesus gives them general signs which point to His coming, but refuses to give them a clear sign of that event. In fact, He tells them that no man knows the hour of His coming. He tells them to always be watching because He comes as a thief in the night. So He gives a clear cut sign pointing to one event, but then refuses to do the same for the second event He discusses, even going so far as to say no man can know when it is going to occur. Obviously, these are two different events. Furthermore, the bible explains that when He comes He will gather all nations before Him and will divide them as a shepherd divides His sheep from the goats and tell some to enter the eternal kingdom and others to depart into everlasting fire. Now, the only way you can fit that into the first century is to monkey around with scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

Actually this is a big problem today. This type of thing and many like it is why I say the church is in deep trouble, and since I am a member of a Baptist church I say that any baptist church that allows anyone to remain active in that church after that person openly admitts to being a Preterist or claims the beliefs of a Preterist makes that church a false church. Again our churches are in deep trouble and every Pastor who does not deal with these problems is accountable for the sins of those who do them.

 

[HankD]

But you ignore the bigger problem. The Bible clearly teaches the "end time"/"last days" were a 1st century occurance

The inception of the "end times/last days" was a 1st century occurrence.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

Which ends with the resurrection:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

Also a new heaven and a new earth.​

2 Peter 3

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

When did these cataclysmic events occur?
Where is the resurrected humanity?
Where is the new heaven and the new earth?
where is the righteousness dwelling in this new earth?
Why does sin and death still reign over the human race?

Easy to type it, more difficult to prove it. Care to prove it?

Care to prove with Scripture how preterism transforms Jesus Christ into Titus the son of Vespasian coming from the city-nation of Rome?

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

HankD​

 

[webdog]

If no man can know the day or the hour...how can preterists state matter-of-factly it occured already?

 

[J.D.]

Actually this is a big problem today. This type of thing and many like it is why I say the church is in deep trouble, and since I am a member of a Baptist church I say that any baptist church that allows anyone to remain active in that church after that person openly admitts to being a Preterist or claims the beliefs of a Preterist makes that church a false church. Again our churches are in deep trouble and every Pastor who does not deal with these problems is accountable for the sins of those who do them.

Or we could just decapitate them. But a viable alternative to that nasty business might be that we could just exercise charity toward each other and "allow" for freedom of conscience on non-essentials.

 

[freeatlast]

Or we could just decapitate them. But a viable alternative to that nasty business might be that we could just exercise charity toward each other and "allow" for freedom of conscience on non-essentials.

If decapitation is what the scripture calls for then we should obey. The Lord did not think it a non essential. He gave scripture on such things and rebuked them for it. Scripture warns that such things harms the faith of some. This milk toast attitude today is why the church is so limp and error prone. Allowing error to simply continue falsely calling it charity is nothing short murder by accepting satan in our mist. This so called charity kills the truth. Dealing with sin does not have to be done with an attitude of hate. It should always be done out of love, but it has to be done to keep the welfare of the church intact. Charity to satan is not to be promoted.

 

[J.D.]

If decapitation is what the scripture calls for then we should obey. The Lord did not think it a non essential. He gave scripture on such things and rebuked them for it. Scripture warns that such things harms the faith of some. This milk toast attitude today is why the church is so limp and error prone. Allowing error to simply continue falsely calling it charity is nothing short murder by accepting satan in our mist. This so called charity kills the truth. Dealing with sin does not have to be done with an attitude of hate. It should always be done out of love, but it has to be done to keep the welfare of the church intact. Charity to satan is not to be promoted.

Okay, I've got two questions: 1) Where is your church, 2) What is the name of your church. Because I want to make sure I don't accidently walk into your church while on vacation and leave without my head attached.

Seriously though, your attitude is wrong and I hope you come to see it soon. I don't believe your desire to punish dissenters is motivated by love.

You might want to consider that the biblical admonition to “love one another” is a COMMAND OF GOD. It is not optional.

Churches have to confess what is believed, and has to restrict its teachers to be generally faithful to that confession. But no one except God has the right to bind the conscience of the individual. A preterist holding a preteristic opinion does not threaten the Church in any way. If he or she becomes divisive, that's different. Divisiveness is a sin.

By the way, I wonder how you define "preterist"; after all, even you are a preterist on SOME passages, aren't you?