Bread for Lord's Supper

[Batt4Christ]

If this needs to be in a different forum, please feel free to move -

OK - just typed a full post, clicked submit, and got the error that I wasn't logged in... go figure....

Anyway, here we go again:

Background: I have been the pastor of my current church for approximately 2 years now, and served as an associate pastor prior to this pastorate. I will be completing my Seminary work next May... Our church is a conservative Missionary Baptist congregation (BMAA).

Situation:

When I came here, I asked about their previous observances of the Lord's Supper - it had been nearly a year!). AS we made plans to start it back up, I asked about who provides/prepares. The chairmen of the deacons said that he and his wife would handle it, unless someone else wanted too. I asked if she would be making the bread, or buying it. She indicated that they would just buy it because it was much simpler (no-one has time anymore???).

Fast-forward 21 months or so...Tonight was our Lord's Supper celebration/observance. I felt "inspired" to investigate alternatives to the dry/hard/tasteless commercial bread (Broadman) that we have been using. I called up the deacon who has been taking care of this and shared what I had in mind - and he said "great" - just be sure it is unleavened (well...yeah...heheh).

I show up this evening with my container of bread I had made (did some serious digging, including Jewish sources for traditional recipes for passover/unleavened bread (also for Feast of Unleavened Bread). I also believe I have a grasp on the concept of what leaven is and what it represents....

First thing I am asked - "You didn't put anything in it, did you?"

My respone: "it's unleavened, and I followed a Passover-appropriate, no-leaven recipe".

Their reply - "No - you did use just flower and water, right?"

I said, "there is a little olive oil and salt" - which is perfectly appropriate...

To which I got the response "well, unleavened bread is flour and water only - that's why we get that bread put out 'by the association' (what association? They buy it from Lifeway, which is SBC, which we are not). They say that that bread (again, Broadman) is just four and water.

I just asked where that mandated recipe came from, and the deacon's wife said "when we use to make it, we always used just flour and water".

So I went about my other preparations, assuming that they would just use the store-bought stuff.

Strangely, when time for the Lord's Supper rolled around, the deacons had the bread I made there to use....??!!!

After the service, while we were cleaning up, I found the Broadman communion bread boxes (3 in the kitchen). All of them said "Ingredients: Pure wheat flour and Vegetable Shortening".

So I mentioned the the deacon that the Broadman bread has vegetable oil and he said - "yeah - they are flour and water"...

So I again said - no, the box says flour and vegetable shortening... and he gets a puzzle look on his face, says - "they are suppose to be flour and water"...

Doing a bit of checking - Broadman does have several varieties of communion bread - with ingredient lists varying from one that uses only Flour and Water (in compliance, from what I have learned, is Roman Catholic Canon Law #924) But the vast majority of such products contain at least some oil, and many contain salt and even sugar.

In my previous research, I found that bread appropriate for the Passover (the reason we make the assumption that Christ used unleavened bread in the first place) and for the Feasts of Unleavened Bread can contain several things besides flour and water. Nearly all recipes contain oil and salt, and quite a few contain a little sugar or honey.

What I am trying to figure out - what, outside of Roman Catholic Law, gives us a strict definition of "flour and water only" for unleavened bread for the Lord's Supper? I am a firm believer in backing up our church practices, beliefs, doctrines, and faith with God's Word. The only hint in God's Word regarding bread for the Lord's Supper is that Christ took "the bread", which logically would be unleavened as we assume that they are celebrating Passover week - a time when faithful Jews clean out their homes of all traces of leavening (not just those related to cooking/food).

But where in the world do we take a leap from unleavened bread to "flour and water only"? Is it some clinging to transubstantiation (Catholic) - that anything but flour and water represents impurity? Seems like an awfully legalistic endeavor with no end... start looking where you get the flour... is it bleached, is it from wheat grown without chemicals (organic?), is it from a variety of wheat native to the area of Israel? how about the water? From the tap? It has all sorts of crud in it.... bottle water? What's the source?

Which again brings out a whole other argument regarding the application of "The Law" to the New Testament Church.... Ugh.

Glad I didn't offer to grow some grapes....!!!:BangHead:

I sure would like some input! I have scoured my Bible, and even Bible software looking for some indication. Bread recipes in the Bible... well I see oil and salt... not to mention the historical fact that flour in that time could be made out of more than just wheat...

Subscribed and eagerly awaiting!

 

[tinytim]

Well, I make my own...

I use Butter, flour and sugar...
I soften the butter, use some sugar, spoon in the all purpose flour, until it becomes a paste, bake it at 350 until it just starts turning golden brown on the edges..
This was an old recipe passed down to me from some old time Baptists.. .(at least 170 yr old recipe) They may have used oil early on, but through the yrs switched to butter.

I have never heard of only flour and water... that's a new one on me.


You should remind them that oil represents the Holy Spirit.

 

[glfredrick]

That much fight over bread? Someone has way too much time on their hands. The issue isn't the bread, but what that bread represents -- the body of Christ!

Question -- if the argument over bread is that specific are you using wine? That is exactly what the Bible stipulates. Just wondering if there is a fight over one element and tacit agreement that the other should be something other than what the Scriptures signify.

http://www.foodforlife.com/sprouted-grain-difference/genesis-1-29.html

Check out the products from the company above -- biblical recipies... Not really suitable for Lord's Supper bread, but good stuff for the dinner table!

 

[go2church]

It's bread, nothing to make a big deal about. Don't get the whole literal thing when it comes to elements in the Lord's supper. They are symbolic for goodness sake.

 

[Jerome]

Sound's like it's time for a church-wide taste test—church lady's original recipe versus pastor's gourmet concotion.
Why not set up a Pepsi-Challenge-style booth at the next potluck?

 

[SaggyWoman]

Wow. And how much time is spent praying for the lost??

 

[Trotter]

I've taken part in a Lord's Supper in a truck stop on Easter morning with some fellow believers. We used some unleavened crackers and some grape juice we bought there in the truck stop where we had our ministry. No big deal as it is the purpose behind it, not the stuff in your hands, that is important.

I prefer to go with unleavened bread simply because that's what Jesus and His disciples used because of the Passover.

 

[Deacon]

I don't know how many times I've spent more than 5 minutes putting together a post only to loose the whole thing when the forum automatically signs me off. :BangHead:

************************
No wonder you only have communion every year or so!
Shucha hassle preparing it.

We usually purchase the machine-made Kosher matzo from the supermarket
and break it into small portions.

Rob

 

[abcgrad94]

Some folks simply think THEIR OPINION is God's word--and it ain't! The specification in the Bible is "unleavened." If they want to get nit-picky about exact ingredients, appoint them to make it themselves or just go buy it.

Don't let this ruffle your feathers too much. You say this is your first senior pastorate and you've been on the job only 2 years. You haven't seen anything yet, brother! LOL! You will always find someone in the church who likes to feel important by exerting some type of "control," even if it's limited to how the coffee is brewed or how the flowers are arranged. When it first happens, it's disheartening and frustrating, but after a while you'll be able to overlook such pettiness and patiently love them in spite of it.

My dh would compliment them on their desire to try to "do it right" and appoint someone to take care of the communion on a regular basis. Then he'd smile and calmly forget about it and let the chips, er, crackers, fall where they may.

 

[Batt4Christ]

Thanks for all the replies. I somehow knew there would be some wise-"guys" post about "praying for the lost"... Which is unfortunately the response so many give to ANY debate...

But for the handful of helpful and constructive responses - thank you.

The reality - this occupied a grand total of about 2 minutes of time at the church building. I spent more time creating and recreating my post than has been invested otherwise (outside of my sincere curiosity about the "recipe" in general).

I tend to agree that the actual ingredients in the bread are a LOT less important than the spirit in which the whole Lord's Supper is taken in. I know some who use whatever bread is handy - from homemade honey wheat, to the hard and stale Catholic-authorized flour/water wafers... and everything in-between.

While I believe that the bread used for the institution of the meal was unleavened out of necessity due to the time of year (Passover), again - that is far less important than the purpose OF the meal - to remember Christ's sacrifice for us.

That being said - I have a problem in general with ANY dogmatic practice or belief of a church (or individual) that cannot be justified through scripture.

Unleavened bread - even if you take it so far as to be strictly Kosher/true to the letter of the Law - can, and usually does, have more than flour and water. I don't have a problem with using such - if whoever is preparing it chooses too... but what is the scriptural limit to those two ingredients? Catholic Canon Law? Since when did Baptists start observing and keeping Catholic law?

Of course the real irony is the ingredient list on the box that the same-said deacon bought himself for use in the Lord's Supper... flour and vegetable shortening....

 

[glfredrick]

Careful avoidance of my question about wine... :tonofbricks:

 

[Jim1999]

Our liquor stores in Canada sell a non-alcoholic wine for churches, but most baptist churches use grape juice. Bread is also bought in the shops and diced for individual service.

What do you think was used on the battlefield in war? Sometimes we used plain, well, muddy water, a lot of times actual wine, even coffee a few times. The bread was generally pieces torn off a stale loaf we had handy. It was just nice to have a quiet moment to remember the Lord where we were.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Crabtownboy]

At home in the States we have a Church of the Brethren. I believe the title is Granddaughters Cookbook. In it is a recipe for communion bread and it certainly has more ingredients than just flour and water, and yes it is unleavened. Unleavened simply means it does not have yeast in it.

Here are several communion bread recipes:

COMMUNION BREAD

10 c. flour
1 lb. butter
3-5 tbsp. sugar
1/2 pt. cream
1 pt. milk
1/2 tsp. salt

Mix dry ingredients thoroughly; add cream and milk to make a medium dough. Divide into 3 or 4 parts and knead well. When dough is smooth and free from bubbles, roll out with rolling pin onto metal baking sheets. Trim and mark with a ruler, cut and stick with fork. Bake in slow oven (350-375 degrees) until well done. Cut strips apart before removing from baking sheets.

COMMUNION BREAD

5 c. flour
1/2 lb. butter
5 tbsp. sugar
1 c. milk
1/2 c. cream

Work well first 4 ingredients, then add last 2 and work well. Divide into 3 parts and work all air bubbles out. Roll very thin. Bake on back of cookie sheet. Measure with ruler and prick with fork. Bake until light brown at 350 degrees. Turn out on cloth, trim edges and cut in strips.

AUNT CORA'S COMMUNION BREAD

1 c. butter
1 c. milk
1 c. sugar
1 tsp. salt
Flour, to stiffen

Put flour into large bowl, about 2 pounds, make hole; add all other ingredients. Mix until stiff enough to roll out; add as much flour as needed. Knead until blisters form, about 10 minutes. Roll out on bottom of inverted pans; cut into strips, almost through dough, then prick with fork where it is to be broken.

Bake 10 to 15 minutes at 350 degrees.

Let cool, place waxed paper on both sides, wrap in wet towel, let sit overnight. Next morning, cut strips the remainder of the way through and break into pieces - or leave intact to be broken later. Seal so that it is airtight, then place in refrigerator or freezer.

How many more would you like?

 

[Crabtownboy]

That much fight over bread? Someone has way too much time on their hands. The issue isn't the bread, but what that bread represents -- the body of Christ!

Question -- if the argument over bread is that specific are you using wine? That is exactly what the Bible stipulates. Just wondering if there is a fight over one element and tacit agreement that the other should be something other than what the Scriptures signify.

http://www.foodforlife.com/sprouted-grain-difference/genesis-1-29.html

Check out the products from the company above -- biblical recipies... Not really suitable for Lord's Supper bread, but good stuff for the dinner table!

The Baptist Seminary in Prague uses Baptist Wine ... they call it that as it is wine from vineyards that were restored by German Baptists several centuries ago after a war in what is now the Czech Republic.

Some Baptists in Europe use wine, some do not. There are many traditions. Some eat the bread and then sip the wine. Some hold the bread and dip it in the wine.

Too often we in American believe our way is the only way. It isn't.

 

[glfredrick]

:thumbs:

The Baptist Seminary in Prague uses Baptist Wine ... they call it that as it is wine from vineyards that were restored by German Baptists several centuries ago after a war in what is now the Czech Republic.

Some Baptists in Europe use wine, some do not. There are many traditions. Some eat the bread and then sip the wine. Some hold the bread and dip it in the wine.

Too often we in American believe our way is the only way. It isn't.

Yup... Our church uses regular bread, dipped in either wine or juice, as one's conscience allows. We admit that the Bible, while not condoning drunkenness, also says "wine" (and that grape juice in the absence of refrigeration becomes wine whether or not one likes it that way). One dip of bread in wine will not a drunk make. Sending the priest (ala our Roman Catholic friends) into the back room to down the remaining cup or cups might... :thumbs:

 

[Zenas]

Some hold the bread and dip it in the wine.

For what it's worth, this practice is called intinction. I've never seen it done in a Baptist church but I saw it once at a wedding in a Methodist church.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Under normal circumstances, I'll go with unleavened bread. Your recipe for ACW hardtack would work.

 

[abcgrad94]

You know, if the congregation is mostly older folks with no teeth, hardtack might pose a problem!

 

[Crabtownboy]

I am curious. If the fellow who insists that unleavened means only flour and water ... if he is so 'literal' in his interpretation does he also insist that wine, I mean real wine be used?

It would seem strange to take one word, unleavened bread, in a passage so literal and take a liberal interpretation of the word, wine.

Just curious.

 

[Jerome]

Are you curious enough to actually read the passages describing the Lord's Supper?