Bread for Lord's Supper

[Tater77]

I am curious. If the fellow who insists that unleavened means only flour and water ... if he is so 'literal' in his interpretation does he also insist that wine, I mean real wine be used?

It would seem strange to take one word, unleavened bread, in a passage so literal and take a liberal interpretation of the word, wine.

Just curious.

Its because too many Baptists actually think Jesus drank grape juice.

 

[glfredrick]

Its because too many Baptists actually think Jesus drank grape juice.

I recommend that the grape juice fans do a little experiment. Harvest a few grapes. Squeeze the juice. Store it in a container consistent with the first century and don't use modern appliances like refrigerators. See if you end up with grape juice or fermented beverage...

I note that the Passover time is not the same time as grape harvest time... That means that the fruit of the vine had to be stored, which means that it was not grape juice. :thumbsup:

Those who hang on every word of Scripture, yet ignore what that same word has to say about wine are sort of lying about their zeal to get it just right.

Note: Because we can store grape juice and halt its fermentation, I don't have problems using it. Jesus probably would have Himself (speculation). But, the Bible is fairly clear about the use of the term "wine." It is not the use of wine that is an issue, it is drunkenness and lust for the product that is.

 

[Batt4Christ]

Its because too many Baptists actually think Jesus drank grape juice.

Of course, some have the opposite problem, and insist that "fruit of the vine" always means "wine", as in fermented wine.

I have been through many conversations regarding wine - the First-century implications and applications, as well as the modern take on it.

I personally am not so hung up on the "juice vs. fermented wine" issue as many. Modern wines mostly fit into the classification the Bible refers too as "strong drink" - as the % of alcohol found in today's commercial "wine" far more potent than a lot of "strong drink" of the first century.

But that being said - there is enough history to show that Christ likely used whatever was available at the time - when grapes were "in-season", one might actually drink what we refer to as "grape juice". When out-of-season, then the common "wine" would likely have been either somewhat fermented (or even partially vinegar) juice/wine, or could have been reconstituted from grape paste. Even "regular/naturally fermented" juice/wine often had water added to it.

But as far as the Lord's Supper - my personal preference is for grape juice - we have a choice, those in the first century had little choice.

As far as the unleavened bread discussion - again, thank you - both for the interesting comments, and for the recipes!

 

[katblue87]

Thanks for all the replies. I somehow knew there would be some wise-"guys" post about "praying for the lost"... Which is unfortunately the response so many give to ANY debate...

But for the handful of helpful and constructive responses - thank you.

The reality - this occupied a grand total of about 2 minutes of time at the church building. I spent more time creating and recreating my post than has been invested otherwise (outside of my sincere curiosity about the "recipe" in general).

I tend to agree that the actual ingredients in the bread are a LOT less important than the spirit in which the whole Lord's Supper is taken in. I know some who use whatever bread is handy - from homemade honey wheat, to the hard and stale Catholic-authorized flour/water wafers... and everything in-between.

While I believe that the bread used for the institution of the meal was unleavened out of necessity due to the time of year (Passover), again - that is far less important than the purpose OF the meal - to remember Christ's sacrifice for us.

That being said - I have a problem in general with ANY dogmatic practice or belief of a church (or individual) that cannot be justified through scripture.

Unleavened bread - even if you take it so far as to be strictly Kosher/true to the letter of the Law - can, and usually does, have more than flour and water. I don't have a problem with using such - if whoever is preparing it chooses too... but what is the scriptural limit to those two ingredients? Catholic Canon Law? Since when did Baptists start observing and keeping Catholic law?

Of course the real irony is the ingredient list on the box that the same-said deacon bought himself for use in the Lord's Supper... flour and vegetable shortening....

This thread is so many many years old that I am doubting to receive a response. Curious if there was ever a true legitimate reason for water and flour only?? I am going through the same thing with our Primitive Baptist Church. We are fairly by the letter of the KJV......and I just can't find any reference to water and flour only.

 

[Batt4Christ]

This thread is so many many years old that I am doubting to receive a response. Curious if there was ever a true legitimate reason for water and flour only?? I am going through the same thing with our Primitive Baptist Church. We are fairly by the letter of the KJV......and I just can't find any reference to water and flour only.

Here's a reply! It was my original post, so I get notifications when someone replies...

The only basis I've been able to cypher is the assumptions regarding the "passover meal" that was assumed to be what the Lord's Supper was being instituted in connection with on that day.

But even then - it would simply be a prohibition against any LEAVEN agents. Olive oil would have been almost always used in the breads, even for passover. So would salt. So I really cannot make a defense for "flour and water only".

 

[rlvaughn]

I had not noticed this thread before, but now have read through the posts and found it interesting. First, I was unable to find any exacting history regarding only flour and water to make the unleavened bread for communion. I thought I might find something in J. R. Graves's writings, who influenced our churches in the South (especially the old Southwest) greatly regarding the topic of the Lord's Supper. However, I have not found anything yet. He strongly advocated unleavened bread of fine wheaten flour, but I did not see he ever specified or excluded other specific ingredients.

I found a recipe for unleavened bread online from Statesboro Primitive Baptist Church in Statesboro, Georgia. It included only flour and water, but no details as to the why. An online story about Macedonia Missionary Baptist Church in Crestview, Florida (a predominantly African-American congregation) getting a historical marker, mentions a lady her demonstrating how her mother used to make communion bread from "a mixture of plain flour and water." My mother made the communion bread for many years for our East Texas Baptist church of only flour and water. All that to say, I don't know how it originated, but it seems to be fairly widespread. My inclination is that it is not related to the Catholic practice/requirement.

We use homemade communion bread at our current church, which I believe has a small amount of oil and salt in addition to the flour and water.

As far as unleavened bread is concerned, a mixture of only flour and water is unleavened, and I would be quite satisfied to not add anything else if the church thought it should be that way. I would not make it (oil and salt) a hill to die on. (I would not budge from unleavened, though.)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I've been in churches that use matzo bread broken up into pieces. The Russian churches, I've celebrated in, have used home-baked. But then they also use yeast bread.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I've been in churches that use matzo bread broken up into pieces. The Russian churches, I've celebrated in, have used home-baked. But then they also use yeast bread.

Due to the Covid-19 my local church www.lighthousenashville.org has used a single-use little cup-like thing that has a very tiny bread tasting thing-a-majig (c about 2/3ds dia) on the top layer & a not-very tasty drop or two of I guess is juice. At LCF, it's been a custom for each of our now-four groups of worshippers to walk up & receive the elements & then go back to our respective seats until every one in our auditorium has received both elements. We then proceed to ingest first the liquid element & then this bread-like element. Since this past Sunday (May 9,2021) we've once again gone to a Sunday AM worship service. This was to at least try not to give this Covid-19 "flu (?)" to anyone or to not get this flu. For about 10 months prior LCF went to having both an 8:30 & a 10:15 pair of worship services (With a special section of our auditorium set-aside for those who wish to wear a protective mask. I can possibly see the need for this MO, but IMHO, I'm glad LCF has reverted to just one Sunday AM "Adult" svc (& w/ separate svcs 4 those under 5th Grade (Lighthouse Kidz) & another Lighthouse Youth Church svc that usually only meets separately from our "Adult" svc only once a month. On both my POA & my Primary Care Physician recommendations, I've worn a mask at LCF's Worship Service since I'm 75 YO + have had many medical issues the past couple years. We've also had our 10:15 Sunday AM services both on Face Book & U Tube for those who can't make it to svcs + ZOOMing our SS & Life Group meetings. I'm also glad that LCF is going to have her 2nd Sunday noon-time dinners, which are primarily hosted by LCF's "Men of Valor" group. MofV is a group that LCF started some years ago for parolled men (& now with a couple parolled women) who've proved their sincere desires to have their lives changed for the good. So far as I know, LCF is the only church that offered to host such a group of young adults in all of TN. MofV wants to start a Knoxville branch too...Knoxville (In E TN) is the site of the University f TN's main campus. If this seems to work out, they've considered starting a KY MofV. A few weeks ago LCF featured testimonies of some 15 people (Including 2 women) who've been in this program. It was a real joy for me to hear how serious the changes in these 15 lives have been once "I Have decided to follow Jesus" has been more than just a song to these young adults. Lives of sin transformed into lives worth living, broken families being broken no more, & 15 people one would hardly expect to turn out right "turned out right." Yes, "There's POWER in the BLOOD!!"

 

[katblue87]

I agree in not making this a hill to die on lol. That being said, it does bother me at the same time. If there are rules to follow let them be scriptural, or please don't gasp in horror if someone brings a wafer with oil. This really does not make sense to me and yet I will certainly go with the flow
Paul from Antioch, so glad you are resuming some in person services! Our congregation is so small we were not terribly affected by COVID restrictions since on any given Sunday each member is able to have their own pew And yes, There's POWER in the BLOOD!!!

 

[rlvaughn]

BTW, welcome to the Baptist Board, katblue87. I just noticed that you joined yesterday. I hope you find it useful and a blessing.

 

[katblue87]

BTW, welcome to the Baptist Board, katblue87. I just noticed that you joined yesterday. I hope you find it useful and a blessing.

I am sure I will[emoji4]
Appreciate the welcome[emoji3583]


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[Paul from Antioch]

I agree in not making this a hill to die on lol. That being said, it does bother me at the same time. If there are rules to follow let them be scriptural, or please don't gasp in horror if someone brings a wafer with oil. This really does not make sense to me and yet I will certainly go with the flow
Paul from Antioch, so glad you are resuming some in person services! Our congregation is so small we were not terribly affected by COVID restrictions since on any given Sunday each member is able to have their own pew And yes, There's POWER in the BLOOD!!!

One small church I used to visit from time-to-time had her LS participants all line up in one line with a piece (cracker) in his/her hand & then would immerse that "cracker" in a red juice (which was in a bowl) & then all the participants would eat the bread/wine (?) together. This very small church had (for her size) several very young children who, I would hope HAD received Jesus as their Savior. ...... I don't know if the NT specifically details how a NT church must physically observe this ordainance so long as its participants are truly born-again. Some churches observe "Closed" Communion wherein one must not only be saved, but also of that specific local church. What are your views on a "Closed" Communion?

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I agree in not making this a hill to die on lol. That being said, it does bother me at the same time. If there are rules to follow let them be scriptural, or please don't gasp in horror if someone brings a wafer with oil. This really does not make sense to me and yet I will certainly go with the flow
Paul from Antioch, so glad you are resuming some in person services! Our congregation is so small we were not terribly affected by COVID restrictions since on any given Sunday each member is able to have their own pew And yes, There's POWER in the BLOOD!!!

Then there is this controversy over whether or not grape juice or fermented wine MUST be used. The "Winos" claim that since Jesus actually used wine when He instituted this ordinance, using grape juice is NOT permitted. I don't see in the NT where wine MUST be used, although Paul in his letter to the church at Corinth seems to imply that it was used since a person can't get drunk on grape juice. Whether or not the NT forbids the use of grape juice, I'm not certain. It's been asserted that wine was in fact rather universally used until the WCTU (Women's Christian Temperance Union) became a force in the mid-latter 1800s - early 1900s. IS there any specific NT passage that backs the use of grape juice? IMHO, ether position seems to be more an argument from silence.

 

[katblue87]

One small church I used to visit from time-to-time had her LS participants all line up in one line with a piece (cracker) in his/her hand & then would immerse that "cracker" in a red juice (which was in a bowl) & then all the participants would eat the bread/wine (?) together. This very small church had (for her size) several very young children who, I would hope HAD received Jesus as their Savior. ...... I don't know if the NT specifically details how a NT church must physically observe this ordainance so long as its participants are truly born-again. Some churches observe "Closed" Communion wherein one must not only be saved, but also of that specific local church. What are your views on a "Closed" Communion?

Interesting question for me as I was raised Methodist without ever hearing of "closed" communion at the churches I attended. Recently (3 years ago) I converted to Primitive Baptist and we do have "closed" communion services. They are not specific to your local church, only specific to being a Primitive Baptist member anywhere. At first I wasn't sure how I felt about that having never thought about the physical act of communing with bretheren. But with my new "eyes" seeing scripture differently I feel closer in fellowship with our members than I ever did anywhere else. In this regard, it well works for me/us.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Interesting question for me as I was raised Methodist without ever hearing of "closed" communion at the churches I attended. Recently (3 years ago) I converted to Primitive Baptist and we do have "closed" communion services. They are not specific to your local church, only specific to being a Primitive Baptist member anywhere. At first I wasn't sure how I felt about that having never thought about the physical act of communing with bretheren. But with my new "eyes" seeing scripture differently I feel closer in fellowship with our members than I ever did anywhere else. In this regard, it well works for me/us.

In my 55 years as a born-again child of God, I've been to some Baptist churches that DID observe "Closed" Communion that were not by any stretch of one's imagination Primitive Baptist churches, e.g., one even sponsored several Missionary Conferences over the years. Obviously (to me anyway) that having observe the Lord's Supper ordinance isn't inherently ONLY a Primative Baptist thing. ...."Jest sayin' y'all!!"

 

[katblue87]

In my 55 years as a born-again child of God, I've been to some Baptist churches that DID observe "Closed" Communion that were not by any stretch of one's imagination Primitive Baptist churches, e.g., one even sponsored several Missionary Conferences over the years. Obviously (to me anyway) that having observe the Lord's Supper ordinance isn't inherently ONLY a Primative Baptist thing. ...."Jest sayin' y'all!!"

I don't believe anyone thinks that it is just a Primitive Baptist thing. Not me or anyone in our congregation. Maybe I misspoke. The idea for closed communion is simply communing with your family in Christ. That this special day is with a body of believers. I mentioned PB because I was referring to the dichotomy of my church life. No offense intended.

 

[Jerome]

Charles Hodge (19th-century Presbyterian) wrote that "the Reformed" regard leavened versus unleavened bread as a matter of indifference, important thing is that real bread be used, and NOT just flour and water!

Hodge: "flour and water or flour and some glutinous substance is not bread in the ordinary sense of the word."

source

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I don't believe anyone thinks that it is just a Primitive Baptist thing. Not me or anyone in our congregation. Maybe I misspoke. The idea for closed communion is simply communing with your family in Christ. That this special day is with a body of believers. I mentioned PB because I was referring to the dichotomy of my church life. No offense intended.

Are we not supposed to commune with our next-door neighbor's family as well?? As long as we do things decently and in order, I fail to understand why there MUST BE "Open," "Close," or even "Closed" Communion. How does one COMMUNE with another family if that first family (No pun intended here.) has not only secured a multitude of locks & surrounded HIS property with an inpenetratable series of walls? Besides, aren't we primarily supposed to focus our communion on the One whose broken body & shed blood??

 

[katblue87]

Are we not supposed to commune with our next-door neighbor's family as well?? As long as we do things decently and in order, I fail to understand why there MUST BE "Open," "Close," or even "Closed" Communion. How does one COMMUNE with another family if that first family (No pun intended here.) has not only secured a multitude of locks & surrounded HIS property with an inpenetratable series of walls? Besides, aren't we primarily supposed to focus our communion on the One whose broken body & shed blood??

For me, communion is for fellowship with the saints. A shared bond and lifestyle.I do believe it is meant for the church family. The last Supper was Jesus with his Apostles. I pray for everyone to want that relationship with Christ that they will find themselves ready for that shared communion. from the way I read the Bible it is not for everyone. We may see scripture differently but at least we are reading the good book

 

[tyndale1946]

Interesting question for me as I was raised Methodist without ever hearing of "closed" communion at the churches I attended. Recently (3 years ago) I converted to Primitive Baptist and we do have "closed" communion services. They are not specific to your local church, only specific to being a Primitive Baptist member anywhere. At first I wasn't sure how I felt about that having never thought about the physical act of communing with bretheren. But with my new "eyes" seeing scripture differently I feel closer in fellowship with our members than I ever did anywhere else. In this regard, it well works for me/us.

I don't know why I'm here, I guess I just stumbled in?... Oh well!... I grew up in a Primitive Baptist Church and we did observe close communion and the bread we used for the Lords Supper was unleavened and baked by the sisters... We also had wine in communion and for those who know me on here we also washed feet... There are a few of us on here and I'm not a preacher, and neither is the other member I know, but I do know the Primitive Baptist and was one since the age of 22... Had to close the doors almost 15 years ago as there were three left, me the youngest at the age of 57 and two elderly sisters... Nice to meet another Primitive Baptist katblue87... Welcome to the Baptist Board... I'm Brother Glen