If God is silent what should the preacher do?

[Tom Bryant]

The "believing" there brother Tom I think is the problem. Almost all cults "believe" the Bible is teaching their distinctives. The Amish "believe" the Bible teaches that technology and worldliness are two sides of the same coin.

Some brethren on here "believe" the Bible teaches that one version of Scripture will be preserved perfectly.

The problem is this "believing". And when some of these doctrines are preached they start heretical movements, they stir confusion in the body of Christ.

It seems to me that the better thing to do is NOT preach something unless it is clear either in precept or principle in the Bible.

No one believes that the Bible has to say thou shalt and thou shalt not to justify preaching against something. But principles can be clear without being explicitly spelled out. Those clear principles can and should be preached.

Again, I understand and agree with most of what you are saying. But if the Amish really believe that technology and worldliness are proportional, then they better preach it.

I believe the Bible teaches that baptism is only for believers after after salvation but others believe that the Bible teaches differently. I am going to preach what I believe the Bible teaches and not really care if someone doesn't think that is what the Bible says.

I have friends who believe that there is no universal church only the local form. They better preach what they believe the Bible teaches.

The problem in many churches is that the people are not taught to study the Bible on their own. So they have only the pastor to believe. When a believer studies the Bible on their own, they can then come to their own conclusions about what the Bible teaches. If it is different than what their pastor teaches, they need to then talk to him or leave the church and go to one that believes as they do.

I am not disagreeing that there are some incredibly ignorant preachers out there who are preaching their own ideas for God's Facts. I just think this could be telling people not to take a stand about an issue that they believe the Bible teaches.

 

[webdog]

Give me a break. Revelry doesn't mean we have to be out at night, drunken, singing to Bacchus. Everybody knows what revelry means. But just for you, here is the definition from the dictionary.

Revelry

–noun, plural -ries.
reveling; boisterous festivity: Their revelry could be heard across the river.
Origin:
1400–50; late ME; see revel, -ry
Synonyms
merrymaking, celebration, carousal, spree.

If people are playing music in church at 120 decibels, bobbing their heads up and down like Angus Young, that is revelry. It is not respectful, it is not decent.

You simply refuse to acknowledge that some people take music to excess in church today.

The text you quoted is dealing with sin. Revelry in this context is sin. A birthday party for my kids where they are loud and listening to loud music, or music used in worship is not the intention of such "revelry". Remember, the context is sinful actions.

 

[webdog]

The bible tells us to use two instruments to worship God in song - the heart and the voice. Now, you can get mad at me all you want, but that is what the bible says. It's not about preference. You say I can't make a case against Christian rock (has there ever been a greater oxymoron?) in a church service. I say the bible makes a case against any sort of music or song not made by the heart and voice.

The Bible also says to worship in spirit and in truth which are immaterial. Are you forgetting they lyre and tambourine?

 

[webdog]

I believe the preacher - and all Christians, in fact - do well to steer between both those two principles (normative and regulative). The truth seems to be between those two (what I would call) extremes. Personally, I see both of them as Charybdis and Scylla. Being drawn to either can be damaging.

This is where spiritual wisdom and a good handle on Scripture should come in, giving us guidance on case by case bases.

Agreed completely. Probably a first for us here on the BB

 

[RAdam]

The Bible also says to worship in spirit and in truth which are immaterial. Are you forgetting they lyre and tambourine?

Where does the NT tell me to use a lyre or a tambourine?

 

[webdog]

Where does the NT tell me to use a lyre or a tambourine?

I missed the memo where we are to completely disregard the OT. It wasn't sin to use them in worship in the OT, why would that be different now in the NT?

 

[RAdam]

I missed the memo where we are to completely disregard the OT.

Are you going to set up a tabernacle or temple, consecrate priests of the tribe of Levi and line of Aaron, bring meat, drink, trespass, sin, peace, etc. offerings? Are you going to observe the feast days and fesitvals and observe a Saturday Sabbath? The OT is not our manual for worship procedure in the NT church.

 

[webdog]

Are you going to set up a tabernacle or temple, consecrate priests of the tribe of Levi and line of Aaron, bring meat, drink, trespass, sin, peace, etc. offerings? Are you going to observe the feast days and fesitvals and observe a Saturday Sabbath? The OT is not our manual for worship procedure in the NT church.

I guess we shouldn't meet in buildings either since that is not found in the NT. Actually, let's remove chairs, writing utensils, speakers, pulpits, nurseries, children's ministries, heat, running water, toilets, etc. etc. etc. since they are not implicitly found in the NT.

 

[RAdam]

"It wasn't sin to use them in worship in the OT, why would that be different now in the NT?"

I never said it was sin to use them, don't put words in my mouth.

Why not use them now? Because the NT told us how to worship God in song. Why not bring a goat in to sacrifice it? It worked in the OT. Why not have a priest to offering sacrifices on your behalf? It worked in the OT. We don't follow OT worship procedure in these things because the NT taught us a different way to worship God in the NT church. People love to pick which things they want to bring over from the OT into the NT church. They want to bring over the instruments, but not the priests, the bloody sacrifices, the temple, the sabbaths, the feasts, etc. If you are going to bring something over, you need to bring it all to be consistent.

 

[webdog]

"It wasn't sin to use them in worship in the OT, why would that be different now in the NT?"

I never said it was sin to use them, don't put words in my mouth.

Why not use them now? Because the NT told us how to worship God in song. Why not bring a goat in to sacrifice it? It worked in the OT. Why not have a priest to offering sacrifices on your behalf? It worked in the OT. We don't follow OT worship procedure in these things because the NT taught us a different way to worship God in the NT church. People love to pick which things they want to bring over from the OT into the NT church. They want to bring over the instruments, but not the priests, the bloody sacrifices, the temple, the sabbaths, the feasts, etc. If you are going to bring something over, you need to bring it all to be consistent.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a question.

The rest is the red herring I addressed in my previous post.

 

[RAdam]

I guess we shouldn't meet in buildings either since that is not found in the NT. Actually, let's remove chairs, writing utensils, speakers, pulpits, nurseries, children's ministries, heat, running water, toilets, etc. etc. etc. since they are not implicitly found in the NT.

You don't seem to understand the difference between scriptural silence and where scripture speaks. The NT says nothing of how we should arrange our buildings, thus we have liberty. Same with chairs or pews. Same with heat, air conditioning, running water. We have liberty there. The NT was silent, giving us liberty. The NT wasn't silent on how to praise God in song. It said to you 2 instruments - the heart and voice. We don't have liberty in what instruments we can use, because the NT spoke on that subject.

Why not have women preachers? Why not baptise babies? Why not have someone read from the local newpaper it the pulpit rather than preach the word? Why can't we just do whatever we want and whatever we feel like? Because the NT isn't silent on these issues.

 

[RAdam]

And I asked you a question. Why don't you bring the rest of the OT worship procedure over?

 

[webdog]

And I asked you a question. Why don't you bring the rest of the OT worship procedure over?

There is no need for it, that is why. We do to an extent with a tabernacle. We have buildings to meet in. How did the early church (made up primarily of Jews) worship?

 

[webdog]

You don't seem to understand the difference between scriptural silence and where scripture speaks. The NT says nothing of how we should arrange our buildings, thus we have liberty. Same with chairs or pews. Same with heat, air conditioning, running water. We have liberty there. The NT was silent, giving us liberty. The NT wasn't silent on how to praise God in song. It said to you 2 instruments - the heart and voice. We don't have liberty in what instruments we can use, because the NT spoke on that subject.

Why not have women preachers? Why not baptise babies? Why not have someone read from the local newpaper it the pulpit rather than preach the word? Why can't we just do whatever we want and whatever we feel like? Because the NT isn't silent on these issues.

Scripture states to praise God in song using our hearts and voice...yet remains silent on instruments, technology, words, language, etc. I'm thinking you don't understand what scriptural silence entails.

 

[asterisktom]

Agreed completely. Probably a first for us here on the BB

Let's savour the moment.:thumbs:

 

[Darrenss1]

The NT wasn't silent on how to praise God in song. It said to you 2 instruments - the heart and voice. We don't have liberty in what instruments we can use, because the NT spoke on that subject.

Again this comes back to where does the NT explicitly "forbid" the use of instruments. This is exactly what the OP is talking about. To say we don't have liberty with instruments cannot be demonstrated in the bible. In fact I can't remember reading anywhere in scripture where any instruments were actually forbidden, anyone know any?? Yes the bible speaks volumes on our attitude and heart when we worship and praise but the instruments get more of a supplimental mention.

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

The bible tells us to use two instruments to worship God in song - the heart and the voice. Now, you can get mad at me all you want, but that is what the bible says. It's not about preference. You say I can't make a case against Christian rock (has there ever been a greater oxymoron?) in a church service. I say the bible makes a case against any sort of music or song not made by the heart and voice.

Who made you the arbiter of what comes from the heart?

Anger comes from the heart and is perfectly appropriate in a plethora of circumstances.

In order for you to have a point in the above quoted post you have to make a logical connection that the Bible saying that worship music comes from the heart and the voice condemns some types of music.

How does the fact that we worship God in song with heart and voice condemn some types of music?

 

[Luke2427]

Again, I understand and agree with most of what you are saying. But if the Amish really believe that technology and worldliness are proportional, then they better preach it.

I believe the Bible teaches that baptism is only for believers after after salvation but others believe that the Bible teaches differently. I am going to preach what I believe the Bible teaches and not really care if someone doesn't think that is what the Bible says.

I appreciate fully what you are saying. But the Amish belief is baseless. They are preaching for doctrine the traditions of men. It is dangerous. It is this kind of thing that creates heresy.

the question is not, should we preach what we believe? the question is should we be certain that what we believe is Bible before we even dream of preaching it?

And the answer is clearly- yes.

I have friends who believe that there is no universal church only the local form. They better preach what they believe the Bible teaches.

I do to. And they are wrong. We are all baptized into ONE body. Christ said he would build his (singular) church.
Why do you think that people had better preach what they believe if you know what they believe is wrong?

The problem in many churches is that the people are not taught to study the Bible on their own. So they have only the pastor to believe. When a believer studies the Bible on their own, they can then come to their own conclusions about what the Bible teaches. If it is different than what their pastor teaches, they need to then talk to him or leave the church and go to one that believes as they do.

Certainly. But the greater problem is the mess that's coming from our pulpits. It is coming from thence because of a lack of true biblical, historical-grammatical exposition of Scripture.

Your conviction that people should preach what they believe should be trumped by a sterner conviction that people should first believe what is clearly true in Scripture before they preach anything.

 

[Luke2427]

Where does the NT tell me to use a lyre or a tambourine?

This is the exact same argument the Church of Christ uses to condemn ANY musical instruments in worship.

The New Testament does not condemn musical instruments- therefore we are to assume that they are fair game- particularly since the Old Testament, written by the same God commands that we worship him with a multiplicity of musical instruments.

 

[Luke2427]

You don't seem to understand the difference between scriptural silence and where scripture speaks. The NT says nothing of how we should arrange our buildings, thus we have liberty. Same with chairs or pews. Same with heat, air conditioning, running water. We have liberty there. The NT was silent, giving us liberty. The NT wasn't silent on how to praise God in song. It said to you 2 instruments - the heart and voice. We don't have liberty in what instruments we can use, because the NT spoke on that subject.

Why not have women preachers? Why not baptise babies? Why not have someone read from the local newpaper it the pulpit rather than preach the word? Why can't we just do whatever we want and whatever we feel like? Because the NT isn't silent on these issues.

You ARE Church of Christ, aren't you. Church of Christ is a cult. They believe in baptismal regeneration and works salvation and think they are the only ones going to heaven. I hope this is not you.

As to your Church of Christ argument against instrumentation in musical worship-

Just because the Bible says to worship him with heart and voice doesn't mean that we are forbidden to use anything else.

If I say, "Go to the grocery store and buy me some milk and cheese," and you pick me up a box of chocolates too doesn't mean you've violated my command. You picked up the milk and the cheese- therefore you obeyed the command.

God says to worship him with heart and voice- but if you do that plus play an organ- you have not violated God's command because you have done exactly what he commanded- you worshiped with heart and voice.

It would have to say, worship him with heart and voice ALONE- for it to say what you are twisting it to say.