Excuses....for “a lack of faith”

[stilllearning]

Hello glfredrick

You said........

“That "revelation light" is called previnient grace. I cannot find that in the Scriptures. It was a concept exemplified by Arminian John Wesley to explain how humans dead in their sin and trespasses can have the human strength to reach out to God.”

The “Light” that I was talking about, is found in the Scriptures.
(Therefore I posted some of the Scriptures that talk about it!)

As for the man-made term, that you used; I have never heard of it.

 

[Winman]

That "revelation light" is called previnient grace. I cannot find that in the Scriptures. It was a concept exemplified by Arminian John Wesley to explain how humans dead in their sin and trespasses can have the human strength to reach out to God.

That is a contradiction. If they need light, then they were unable to reach out to God on their own. So Wesley was not arguing that men have the ability to know and seek God of themselves.

And Wesley has scripture to support his view.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[glfredrick]

Neither of those passages speak of God's previnient grace to make one "alive enough" to reach out to God on their own.

The concept actually pre-dates Wesely and is a Catholic idea. With it comes the over-arching notion that man is merely "sin-sick" and in need of healing -- the point that drives Roman Catholic doctrine.

Again, I cannot find that in the Scriptures.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[freeatlast]

Hello rsr

You asked.....


Well Jesus said........
“.....It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

And we know, that everybody will have the opportunity get saved: So Jesus must be wrong.
(Because we don’t have the faith to believe that He can put a camel through the eye of a needle.)

So we make up excuses, for what Jesus must have really meant!

Either He wasn’t talking about a real camel, or He wasn’t talking about the eye of a real needle!

I too must say I am not aware of anyone ever making excuses on this matter. Perhaps you have chosen the wrong word. None the less, I can tell you that based on what you have written, and gotten all up in the air over, that you do not have a clue as to what the Lord is actually trying to combat with His words.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello freeatlast

You said.......

“I too must say I am not aware of anyone ever making excuses on this matter. Perhaps you have chosen the wrong word. None the less, I can tell you that based on what you have written, and gotten all up in the air over, that you do not have a clue as to what the Lord is actually trying to combat with His words.”

You are right, I may not have any idea what the Lord is trying to say here;
But.....what I am up in the air about, is the audacity some people have, when it comes to refusing to simply accept the words of the Bible.

Jesus said........
“And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

Now for sure, he wasn’t going to put a camel through the eye of a needle, but this is what He said.

My point is, for some reason, people CAN’T SEEM TO ACCEPT THIS; And are constantly making excuses for what the Lord must have meant to say!
--------------------------------------------------
I call this a lack of faith and you may call it something else; But it still isn’t right!

It is not right, to try and make the Bible say something it does not say, simply because you can’t accept that the Lord CAN put a camel through the eye of a needle, if He chose to!

 

[freeatlast]

Hello freeatlast

You said.......

You are right, I may not have any idea what the Lord is trying to say here;
But.....what I am up in the air about, is the audacity some people have, when it comes to refusing to simply accept the words of the Bible.

Jesus said........
“And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

Now for sure, he wasn’t going to put a camel through the eye of a needle, but this is what He said.

My point is, for some reason, people CAN’T SEEM TO ACCEPT THIS; And are constantly making excuses for what the Lord must have meant to say!
--------------------------------------------------
I call this a lack of faith and you may call it something else; But it still isn’t right!

It is not right, to try and make the Bible say something it does not say, simply because you can’t accept that the Lord CAN put a camel through the eye of a needle, if He chose to!

God bless you but you have made my point. Your being up in the air over something you are not even understanding is not the way to go. So even though you have not asked, and you should have, here is what is being said.

The Lord is not suggesting that He/God can or would try and put a camel through the eye of a needle. That would be absolutely pointless and very hard on the camel. The Lord is using exaggerated teaching to make a point.
The Jews had a belief that He needs to tear down. In fact His own disciples even held this view. The story of the rich young ruler comes into this. This man came to the Lord and he evidently had lived a very good life. Not only that he was rich. He came to the Lord not to really seek salvation, but to get praise. After the discussion and his question of how to get right with God the Lord tells him to go and sell all he has and give to the poor and come and follow Him. The man rejects this and leaves. The Lord seizes the moment to teach His disciples truth and correct their false belief. By the way that false belief was that rich people all went to heaven. Their riches was a sign that God had favor on them.
So here is what the Lord says to the disciples to get their attention;
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Then to add insult to injury the Lord says;
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Now the Lord has got their attention. The reason is it is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle and the disciples pick up on this. Listen to what they reply with.
When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Look at these guys. They were not just amazed, but they were "exceedingly amazed!" This went against all that they had learned! If a rich man cannot get saved then who can? This even made them fear that they would not go. The Lord answers this.
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
In other words there is nothing that we can do as men to get saved. Not riches, not sacrifice, not living good, not many prayers not anything except to repent and come to faith. It is all about God, not men.

In the example that the Lord gave about the camel it was to make the point that salvation by man's efforts IS IMPOSSIBLE! It is impossible to put a camel through an eye of a needle and it is impossible for man to get saved by being or doing things. Now don't go off track. This is not about what God can do with a camel. This about what a camel can do. And in this case as this man is rich it is impossible for any rich person to get saved on his own works. However even the rich can be saved if they truly turn to God because God can save even the rich. The reason the rich have so much difficulty is that they love their riches. That is the idea. Instead of the rich being at the front of the line as the disciples thought the rich are at the back of the line, but they can get in if they turn to God. It is called literary hyperbole to make a point.

It has nothing to do with what God can or cannot do in relation to His power. The Lord is not trying to show the power of God in putting a camel through the eye of a needle. He is showing that only God saves and certain things in our lives does not make us more likely to get into heaven but less likely. In this case it is riches.

 

[canadyjd]

...But each and every one of them, had the opportunity to get saved, by responding to the natural revelation all around them.
And every soul that positively responds to this light, will be given more light, eventually finding someone to tell them about the Lord.

But every soul that rejected this light, pushed themselves deeper into Spiritual darkness, eventually becoming unreachable.........
Romans 1:19-32

The only problem is that the verse you quote from Romans says everyone of them rejected the natural revelation. All natural revelation did was make them "without excuse". Just like the O.T. Law, it didn't save anyone.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

Hi canadyjd

You and I are saying the same thing.

I never said that natural revelation could save; Only that it is a light of God’s existence; And if a person responded to that light, than God would give him more light.

Just as the law, can’t save; It only reveals our sinfulness and need for salvation to us.

 

[Mexdeaf]

God bless you but you have made my point. Your being up in the air over something you are not even understanding is not the way to go. So even though you have not asked, and you should have, here is what is being said.

The Lord is not suggesting that He/God can or would try and put a camel through the eye of a needle. That would be absolutely pointless and very hard on the camel. The Lord is using exaggerated teaching to make a point.
The Jews had a belief that He needs to tear down. In fact His own disciples even held this view. The story of the rich young ruler comes into this. This man came to the Lord and he evidently had lived a very good life. Not only that he was rich. He came to the Lord not to really seek salvation, but to get praise. After the discussion and his question of how to get right with God the Lord tells him to go and sell all he has and give to the poor and come and follow Him. The man rejects this and leaves. The Lord seizes the moment to teach His disciples truth and correct their false belief. By the way that false belief was that rich people all went to heaven. Their riches was a sign that God had favor on them.
So here is what the Lord says to the disciples to get their attention;
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Then to add insult to injury the Lord says;
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Now the Lord has got their attention. The reason is it is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle and the disciples pick up on this. Listen to what they reply with.
When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Look at these guys. They were not just amazed, but they were "exceedingly amazed!" This went against all that they had learned! If a rich man cannot get saved then who can? This even made them fear that they would not go. The Lord answers this.
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
In other words there is nothing that we can do as men to get saved. Not riches, not sacrifice, not living good, not many prayers not anything except to repent and come to faith. It is all about God, not men.

In the example that the Lord gave about the camel it was to make the point that salvation by man's efforts IS IMPOSSIBLE! It is impossible to put a camel through an eye of a needle and it is impossible for man to get saved by being or doing things. Now don't go off track. This is not about what God can do with a camel. This about what a camel can do. And in this case as this man is rich it is impossible for any rich person to get saved on his own works. However even the rich can be saved if they truly turn to God because God can save even the rich. The reason the rich have so much difficulty is that they love their riches. That is the idea. Instead of the rich being at the front of the line as the disciples thought the rich are at the back of the line, but they can get in if they turn to God. It is called literary hyperbole to make a point.

It has nothing to do with what God can or cannot do in relation to His power. The Lord is not trying to show the power of God in putting a camel through the eye of a needle. He is showing that only God saves and certain things in our lives does not make us more likely to get into heaven but less likely. In this case it is riches.

That is an excellent exposition. Thank you for posting it.

 

[freeatlast]

That is an excellent exposition. Thank you for posting it.

Your welcome. May the Lord now be honored by it. God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

You and I are saying the same thing.

I never said that natural revelation could save; Only that it is a light of God’s existence; And if a person responded to that light, than God would give him more light.

Let me be clear, we are not saying the same thing.

First, no one responded to the light of natural revelation. That is the point of Romans 1. They are all under the wrath of God.

Second, God intervenes in a person's life for salvation, by Holy Spirit, without any regard to any work that person does. God doesn't wait to see who will respond to His natural revelation, and then choose that person for salvation. If that were true, then those who have salvation have reason to boast... because they responded to the natural revelation when others did not.

I know you don't see it this way, but that is a works salvation. If God responds to man in chosing for salvation, then you have a works salvation.

If man responds to God's intervention, then you have grace.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

Hi canadyjd

You said.......

“Let me be clear, we are not saying the same thing.”

Ok, your right; I reject hyper-Calvinism, because I see where the Bible teaches that people are elected, based upon God’s foreknowledge.

God foreknew, the individuals who were going to positively respond to His Light and elected to save them.
Therefore people do respond to the Light of natural revelation.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said........

“God intervenes in a person's life for salvation, by Holy Spirit, without any regard to any work that person does. God doesn't wait to see who will respond to His natural revelation, and then choose that person for salvation. If that were true, then those who have salvation have reason to boast... because they responded to the natural revelation when others did not.”

I don’t call, responding to God’s drawing, “work”: That would be like calling “believing” work.
God’s gift of salvation, is just that; A gift. Reaching out to accept a gift, isn’t “work”.
--------------------------------------------------
As for, the importance of salvation by Grace alone........
Romans 4:14-16
V.14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
V.15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
V.16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

I.e. We can’t separate Grace, from “faith”: Because salvation, is by faith, “that it might be by grace”.
Therefore, a person’s faith, in God’s light, is an integral part of Grace.

 

[Winman]

Hi canadyjd

You said.......

Ok, your right; I reject hyper-Calvinism, because I see where the Bible teaches that people are elected, based upon God’s foreknowledge.

God foreknew, the individuals who were going to positively respond to His Light and elected to save them.
Therefore people do respond to the Light of natural revelation.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said........


I don’t call, responding to God’s drawing, “work”: That would be like calling “believing” work.
God’s gift of salvation, is just that; A gift. Reaching out to accept a gift, isn’t “work”.
--------------------------------------------------
As for, the importance of salvation by Grace alone........
Romans 4:14-16
V.14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
V.15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
V.16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

I.e. We can’t separate Grace, from “faith”: Because salvation, is by faith, “that it might be by grace”.
Therefore, a person’s faith, in God’s light, is an integral part of Grace.

Yes, Calvinists constantly try to label believeing as a work, when the scriptures themselves contrast believeing as being the opposite of work.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Calvinists can insist faith and believeing is a work all they want, the scriptures show believeing is not a work.

Let's say you are caught in a building on fire on the sixth floor. You are forced to the window with no escape. Below you a group of firemen are holding a large net, calling for you to jump and promising they will safely catch you.

You have two options here, you could trust in your own abilities and try to climb down yourself. But you realize that is not possible. You look down at the net, it appears so small from your vantage. You have doubts that the firemen could actually catch you. But they persist in calling you and assure you they are able to safely catch you. You come to believe them and decide to jump. You are no longer trying to save yourself whatsoever but placing yourself completely 100% in their hands and depending on them to save you. This is trusting, this is belief, this is faith.

Now, the jumping is an action, it is a work. But this work or action follows the faith you first had. If you did not believe the firemen could catch you, you would not dare jump. You really would not. You may have all sorts of fears and doubts, but if you have enough faith to jump, that is all the faith you need.

It is the same with Jesus. Jesus said "come unto me". He has promised to save all who come to him and cast no one out.

Now if you believe Jesus's promise you will come to him. If you do not believe his promise you will not. If you have even a mustard seed of faith in his promise you will come to him. But the action of coming follows the faith you first had, believeing his promise.

Believeing is not a work. It is a judgment. It is judging Jesus as truthful or not.

And believeing someone does not make you good. You could be the worst liar and thief in town, yet you can trust your godly mother when she makes a promise to visit you in jail. Believeing her promise does not make a good person out of you, but it does judge her as being truthful and honest. It is saying she is good, not yourself.

Folks do not know what faith is, this is the problem. Faith is looking at the other person and judging whether they are good and honest, not looking at ourselves. It is not a work whatsoever, but it will produce works.

 

[glfredrick]

Dead people don't "reach."

Your analogy of jumping into a net implies that the individual is alive... That is the core mistake of Arminian theology. God MAKES us alive, but until then, we cannot reach, choose, grasp, wish, etc.

Also, it should be noted that God's election does not complete the act of salvation. That is the second mistake of Arminianism.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi glfredrick

You said........

“Dead people don't "reach."

John 4:19-20
V.19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
V.20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

She was reaching!

 

[Winman]

Dead people don't "reach."

Your analogy of jumping into a net implies that the individual is alive... That is the core mistake of Arminian theology. God MAKES us alive, but until then, we cannot reach, choose, grasp, wish, etc.

Also, it should be noted that God's election does not complete the act of salvation. That is the second mistake of Arminianism.

False, you have been brainwashed by false doctrine. Nowhere in the scriptures does it ever teach men are unable to respond to God, in fact in many verses it teaches the opposite.

I have mentioned the story of Cain so many times I am getting sick of presenting it. Cain was lost, but God himself said he could do well and would be accepted if he chose to do so.

Jesus said the "dead" could hear his voice, and those that would listen would be made alive.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

When Jesus raised the young girl who died, did she hear him when she was dead, or when she was alive? Look and see.

Luke 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

The scriptures say the body without the spirit is dead.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When Jesus spoke to this young girl she was dead. Her spirit was not in her body. After speaking to her her spirit returned to her body. Only then was she alive.

You know, when you deny that the spiritually dead cannot respond to God, you are also denying that God has the power and ability to speak and communicate to the dead. You are denying God's power. You ought to think about that.

 

[canadyjd]

Ok, your right; I reject hyper-Calvinism, because I see where the Bible teaches that people are elected, based upon God’s foreknowledge.

God foreknew, the individuals who were going to positively respond to His Light and elected to save them.

Brother, that is not what "foreknowledge" means. Nowhere in scripture will you find "foreknowledge" used to say God saw who would respond to His natural revelation and then choose to save them.

In Romans 8:29, you see the word "foreknew" used to describe those God had a relationship with prior to calling them.

I don’t call, responding to God’s drawing, “work”: That would be like calling “believing” work.

You didn't use the word "drawing". Drawing people to God is a work of Holy Spirit, not natural revelation.

...I.e. We can’t separate Grace, from “faith”: Because salvation, is by faith, “that it might be by grace”. Therefore, a person’s faith, in God’s light, is an integral part of Grace.

Of course we can separate "Grace" from "faith". "Grace" is the unmerited favor of God upon a person. Salvific grace is the unmerited favor of God upon a person that leads to salvation.

Faith is man's response to the salvific grace that God has bestowed upon him. Faith is an integral part of salvation, as is God's grace.

But a man's faith is not part of God's grace. Otherwise, you believe as the Catholics that man's faith works with God's grace to bring salvation. Which is a works salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

False, you have been brainwashed by false doctrine. Nowhere in the scriptures does it ever teach men are unable to respond to God....

Hi Winman. Good to see you.

No one said men can't respond to God, as in "special revelation...Holy Spirit drawing, etc". We are saying men can't respond without God's intervention. You know that is true, don't you?

I Cor. 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised". (emphasis mine, not yelling)

They are spiritual dead. Unless God intervenes, they cannot understand the things of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

John 4:19-20
V.19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. V.20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

She was reaching!

She had seen that mountain a thousand times before, but her life remained unchanged. The "natural revelation" did nothing to bring her to salvation.

As she stood in the presence of God, Himself (that is special revelation) and Jesus had mercy on her, exposing her sin and revealing to her who He is, she responded with faith.

She didn't "reach" until God intervened in her life with special revelation.

peace to youraying:

 

[zrs6v4]

Let me be clear, we are not saying the same thing.

First, no one responded to the light of natural revelation. That is the point of Romans 1. They are all under the wrath of God.

Second, God intervenes in a person's life for salvation, by Holy Spirit, without any regard to any work that person does. God doesn't wait to see who will respond to His natural revelation, and then choose that person for salvation. If that were true, then those who have salvation have reason to boast... because they responded to the natural revelation when others did not.

I know you don't see it this way, but that is a works salvation. If God responds to man in choosing for salvation, then you have a works salvation.

If man responds to God's intervention, then you have grace.

peace to youraying:

I agree completely with what you said.

With all of the knowledge in the world, even if God sent us an angel, a resurrected person, or any help to give us truth, we would not see or understand in a way that causes us to come to Him without a complete rescue mission by the Holy Spirit. We cannot beat our self deception, our blindness, our self-justification, self-reliance, or anything. Our very nature is opposed to God at its core. We are blind of most of our sins, even as the redeemed.

This is even true in our Christian lives (hence we are totally dependent on God). We are completely involved yet we don't hold ourselves up in the heavenly places, it is the Spirit in us revealing and guiding us. As a Christian fighting my sin and seeing the struggles from my fleshly blindness it seems impossible to seek God the way He desires, this is exactly why we cry out to God in utter helplessness at times. If it is impossible for me who has been born again to control and to seek God's heart rightly then how much more impossible is it for an unborn person? When the Spirit of God does a work in the person by revealing who God is and how bad the sinner really is it breaks him. It causes a completely helpless repentance and crying out to God. This is a place of complete renewal and submission to God through faith and understanding (from God's Spirit).