Catholic Taliban?

[DHK]

I have already said that a church has the Scriptural authority to excommunicate a member that openly and publicly contradicts the belief of that church.

That the member is a politician does not negate that Scriptural authority.

Can you cite a Scripture verse that supports denying a church the authority to excommunicate a politician?

I should delete this post as it is not on topic. I have already given you one warning (and perhaps more).
How do you compare a church of a few dozen members to an unscriptural corrupt organization of over one billion members. There is no comparison, so your question is moot. It has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[targus]

I should delete this post as it is not on topic. I have already given you one warning (and perhaps more).
How do you compare a church of a few dozen members to an unscriptural corrupt organization of over one billion members. There is no comparison, so your question is moot. It has nothing to do with the OP.

So the Catholic church lost the Scriptual authority to excommunicate because there are a lot of Catholics?

What is your Scriptural basis for saying that?

And actually it is the local bishop that threatened to excommunicate this guy.

 

[DHK]

So the Catholic church lost the Scriptual authority to excommunicate because there are a lot of Catholics?

What is your Scriptural basis for saying that?

And actually it is the local bishop that threatened to excommunicate this guy.

There are no denominations in the Bible.
The very definition of Roman Catholic Church does not fit the definition of the word "church" or ekklesia in the Bible, which simply means "assembly."
It is not an assembly.
It is not Christian nor has ever been.
It is a false world religion whose doctrines send people to hell.

 

[targus]

There are no denominations in the Bible.
The very definition of Roman Catholic Church does not fit the definition of the word "church" or ekklesia in the Bible, which simply means "assembly."
It is not an assembly.
It is not Christian nor has ever been.
It is a false world religion whose doctrines send people to hell.

And that is the crux of the problem.

It is not possible then to discuss the topic with you because you do not believe the Catholic church to be a church - and because of your belief you would deny them the Scriptural authority of excommunication.

And that is why you accuse me of being off topic.

 

[DHK]

And that is the crux of the problem.

It is not possible then to discuss the topic with you because you do not believe the Catholic church to be a church - and because of your belief you would deny them the Scriptural authority of excommunication.

And that is why you accuse me of being off topic.

Even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt that they were Christian, the onus would be on you to demonstrate that they (the RCC authorities) in love, took Scriptural steps to excommunicate Aquino. You do the homework. Have they done this? Have they started a process?
Or is the Taliban way of threats and intimidation the only "Christian" way they know?
Comparing the political situation in the Philippines to me and my church is off topic.
Comparing it to the Bible is what you should be doing. I am not your sole authority in all matters of faith and doctrine; the Bible ought to be. Is it?

 

[targus]

Even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt that they were Christian, the onus would be on you to demonstrate that they (the RCC authorities) in love, took Scriptural steps to excommunicate Aquino. You do the homework. Have they done this? Have they started a process?
Or is the Taliban way of threats and intimidation the only "Christian" way they know?
Comparing the political situation in the Philippines to me and my church is off topic.
Comparing it to the Bible is what you should be doing. I am not your sole authority in all matters of faith and doctrine; the Bible ought to be. Is it?

The Bible gives churches the authority to excommunicate.

And I already asked you for your scriptual citation that prevents a church from excommunicating a member simply because he is a politician.

As to homework - it seems to me that the responsibility to check whether the Catholic church is doing this in the correct way would be on the accuser - the one who is making the Taliban charge.

I have only read your articles - and the fact is that he has not been excommunicated - there have been communications between his church and him - and he is persisting in the behavior.

That sounds to be a proper process.

What more are you looking for?

Just because your do not believe contraception to be a sin does not change the fact that the Catholic church does. If this guy wants to make contraception a government supported activity - perhaps he could take your advice and look for another church.

After all he does have the soul liberty to do so does he not.

Soul liberty does not mean that one can believe whatever one chooses and then expect the church that you are currently a member of to simply accept it if it is something the is contrary to that churches beliefs.

 

[DHK]

The Bible gives churches the authority to excommunicate.

To excommunicate on what grounds? On the grounds of a controversial subject that falls under the categories given in Romans 14? No!

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Excommunicated for what? Here is an example:
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
--The crime was incest. Adultery. It was not a simple difference of opinion in the use of contraceptives. It was far more serious. It held the consequence of bringing shame to the name of Christ and to that particular local church. The action to be taken was to put one out of the church until he had repented of his sin. Eventually he did repent and came back into the fold.

And I already asked you for your scriptual citation that prevents a church from excommunicating a member simply because he is a politician.

This is a red herring. They are trying to excommunicate him because he is trying to pass a bill for the betterment of his nation.
Your question makes no sense. The wrong is on the RCC who act with Taliban methodology in threats and intimidation in order to try to stop him from passing this bill. Is that the Christian way of doing things?

As to homework - it seems to me that the responsibility to check whether the Catholic church is doing this in the correct way would be on the accuser - the one who is making the Taliban charge.

People observe. They have observed. Now the RCC better take notice. Are these observations correct, and do they need to change their ways? Are they acting according to the dictates of the Bible, or are they acting in a manner like unsaved pagans. It seems like the latter is true. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. They need to do that.

I have only read your articles - and the fact is that he has not been excommunicated - there have been communications between his church and him - and he is persisting in the behavior.

You are right. The threat is there. It is an ultimatum. It is intimidation. It is that which is against the law in this nation. It is also called corruption. The behavior (of Aquino) is not wrong if he believes it is for the right of the nation. The RCC does not take this harsh stance against any other Catholic. It is intimidation only here. Why? So they can make political inroads. They can't even take care of their own immoral priests which is a far worse problem.

That sounds to be a proper process.
What more are you looking for?

Love, principles in Mat.18:15-20 being carried out. Democracy in action. A separation between church and state--that which Celdron was protesting for.

Just because your do not believe contraception to be a sin does not change the fact that the Catholic church does. If this guy wants to make contraception a government supported activity - perhaps he could take your advice and look for another church.

That is not the issue. The issue could be polygamy and a belief in it. If the church wants to change it, it is wrong to do it through Taliban-like methods: intimidation, threats and ultimatums. Is that democracy in action. The Philippines is a democratic nation. It is not a dictatorship run by the Catholic Bishops. That is the problem. Why doesn't the RCC believe in a democratic process? Why must they be the sole authority and power in a democratic nation acting as dictators and thugs. Show me the democracy there.

After all he does have the soul liberty to do so does he not.

No one has soul liberty when he is being forced to do something against his will.

Soul liberty does not mean that one can believe whatever one chooses and then expect the church that you are currently a member of to simply accept it if it is something the is contrary to that churches beliefs.

The RCC doesn't care about contraception. If it cared it would do something about its own pedophiles holding positions in authority. If it cared it would take a just and equal stand on all Catholics who hold the same position on contraceptives. But there are more Catholics who agree with Aquino than there are that agree with the Pope. They can't discipline the whole church. They are not consistent; they are hypocritical.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

DHK you are basing your view that the Catholic Church has committed a crime for threatening to excommunicated the president because he doesn't uphold and goes against the teachings of the church. Question. How is that a crime? Any Church has a right to excommunicate any member for not adhering to their teachings. The catholic church has the right to excommunicate Nancy Pelosi for supporting abortion and the same for John Kerry and Niether would say the Church did something illegal. they may disagree but a church has a right to make a stance on its beliefs. Nothing illegal about it.
Our country strong arms people all the time. For instance people are tired of both parties in the US increasing Taxes and Government spending so what do they do? Threaten to withdraw support and establish a grass roots group called the Tea Party to 1) protest government policy and 2) encourage like minded polititians to stand up for their held beliefs. There is nothing illegal about that either. So what If the president is excommunicated. If he has integrity he will stand up for what he believes. Its not like the catholic church held a revolution. Even if they excommunicate him, he will still be president and still able to make executive decisions.

 

[DHK]

DHK you are basing your view that the Catholic Church has committed a crime for threatening to excommunicated the president because he doesn't uphold and goes against the teachings of the church. Question. How is that a crime?

It doesn't fall under the purview of that which warrants excommunication.

Any Church has a right to excommunicate any member for not adhering to their teachings. The catholic church has the right to excommunicate Nancy Pelosi for supporting abortion and the same for John Kerry and Niether would say the Church did something illegal.

You are talking hypotheticals. If you were talking reality, then why doesn't the RCC excommunicate them. It won't happen and you know it. Like I have been saying consistently, they won't even excommunicate their own pedophiles.

they may disagree but a church has a right to make a stance on its beliefs. Nothing illegal about it.

What is wrong is inconsistency and hypocrisy. If they excommunicate this man then they must excommunicate more than half of all their membership (perhaps up to 90% of them). Are they willing to do this? A belief in contraceptives in know way falls under the purview of excommunication. In this you are being ridiculous.

Our country strong arms people all the time. For instance people are tired of both parties in the US increasing Taxes and Government spending so what do they do? Threaten to withdraw support and establish a grass roots group called the Tea Party to 1) protest government policy and 2) encourage like minded polititians to stand up for their held beliefs.

Apples and oranges. First they aren't religious issues.
Second they aren't minor issues.
Third those are political issues which have consequences on the entire nation.

There is nothing illegal about that either. So what If the president is excommunicated. If he has integrity he will stand up for what he believes.

He does stand up for what he believes as do 90% of all Catholics who are never threatened with excommunication. Where is the consistency within the Catholic Church. Obviously this is the political club used by a religious thug who is trying to strong arm a leader of a nation. As a bishop he has no business in trying to run the government.

Its not like the catholic church held a revolution. Even if they excommunicate him, he will still be president and still able to make executive decisions.

They are threatening him with the purpose of trying to stop him from passing a bill. Threats and intimidation are not Christianity. Where did Christ use such methods? Is this the type of Christianity that you practice in your life?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It doesn't fall under the purview of that which warrants excommunication.
You are talking hypotheticals. If you were talking reality, then why doesn't the RCC excommunicate them. It won't happen and you know it. Like I have been saying consistently, they won't even excommunicate their own pedophiles.
What is wrong is inconsistency and hypocrisy. If they excommunicate this man then they must excommunicate more than half of all their membership (perhaps up to 90% of them). Are they willing to do this? A belief in contraceptives in know way falls under the purview of excommunication. In this you are being ridiculous.
Apples and oranges. First they aren't religious issues.
Second they aren't minor issues.
Third those are political issues which have consequences on the entire nation.
He does stand up for what he believes as do 90% of all Catholics who are never threatened with excommunication. Where is the consistency within the Catholic Church. Obviously this is the political club used by a religious thug who is trying to strong arm a leader of a nation. As a bishop he has no business in trying to run the government.
They are threatening him with the purpose of trying to stop him from passing a bill. Threats and intimidation are not Christianity. Where did Christ use such methods? Is this the type of Christianity that you practice in your life?

First of all a Church can use any thing it wants to excommunicate a member. In the NT however it has been shown a man sleeping with his fathers wife was excommunicated Also Paul suggested excommunication for people who had heretical beliefs. In this case the Catholic Church believes that the President has a heretical belief. Next there has been nothing said by you that suggest the catholic Church did anything illegal. They threaten to excummunicate someone they believe is a heretic! Any church has this right. Why doesn't the president become a baptist and it won't matter one way or another? Nothing that has been said is illegal. Your grasping at straws.

 

[targus]

DHK, here is my best guess to what you are asking.

The Catholic church considers contraception to be sin.

The Catholics are not threatening him with excommunication because he is sinning by using contraception. He could be using it - but who knows?

They are threatening him with excommunication because he is promoting sin.

He is promoting sin very publicly.

As to why are not all Catholics that use contraception excommunicated - it very well could be because it is a private sin that is carried on in ones home and not done in public. How could anyone know which individual Catholic is or is not using contraception?

If it is not possible to know who or who is not using contraception how is the Catholic church supposed to know who to excommunicate?

As to your "good of the country" arguement.

Some politicians argue for legalized gambling as a means of raising money "for the good of the country".

Some argue for legalization "for the good of the country".

Would you accept the promotion of these sins because they would be "for the good of the country".

I doubt it.

 

[DHK]

DHK, here is my best guess to what you are asking.

The Catholic church considers contraception to be sin.

The Catholics are not threatening him with excommunication because he is sinning by using contraception. He could be using it - but who knows?

They are threatening him with excommunication because he is promoting sin.

He is promoting sin very publicly.

He is not promoting sin. He is promoting what they believe to be sin--a very controversial topic--one which most Catholics disagree with. If they threaten to excommunicate him on this trivial basis then be consistent and threaten to excommunicate about 90 percent of all Catholics in North America. Are the Catholics ready to take such a stand? No. All that they are doing in the Philippines are for political clout and/or gain. It has nothing to do with their religion. It is politics and nothing else. It has nothing to do with "sin."
If it had anything to do with sin, why don't they take care of the pedophiles in their own leadership? What is worse? Using a contraceptive or attacking and raping children? You say that the use of a contraceptive is worthy of excommunication but not the rapist of a child. Horrible!

As to why are not all Catholics that use contraception excommunicated - it very well could be because it is a private sin that is carried on in ones home and not done in public. How could anyone know which individual Catholic is or is not using contraception?

Because it is not sin. It is a family decision on how they want to limit the size of their family according to their own financial restraints. Not all families can afford to raise 12-14 children. It would be sin to have that many children, fall into terrible debt, allow the children to be malnourished, and uneducated because of poverty. Some may even die as a result of not being able to wisely plan for the size of the family that the parents can afford to raise.
Whatever you believe on this subject the matter is a private one. It should not be dictated. The President's policy as to running the nation cannot be dictated by the RCC. That is wrong. The RCC is interfering in the politics of the nation. There must be a separation of church and state. The only separation here is that of intimidation and the action of Taliban-like methods.

If it is not possible to know who or who is not using contraception how is the Catholic church supposed to know who to excommunicate?

Then it is not their business is it? The church has no business in the bedrooms of a married couple.

As to your "good of the country" arguement.

The good of the nation is the control of STD's such as AIDS, and raising the standard of living.
The logic is this. You cannot always catch the thief from stealing. But there are ways of limiting what he can steal. You can take affirmative action and limit the consequences of the wrongs of the criminal.

Some politicians argue for legalized gambling as a means of raising money "for the good of the country".

I don't condone any sin. We aren't talking of gambling.

Some argue for legalization "for the good of the country".

Marriage has been legalized for some time now. It was God that legalized it. What man does in his bedroom is between him and God. He will give account to God not the RCC.

Would you accept the promotion of these sins because they would be "for the good of the country".

I don't promote sin.

 

[targus]

DHK, I am dropping this discussion.

It is obvious that there is not point in continuing it with you.

 

[asmcreations]

The government support the two contraceptive methods either artificial or natural. It's up for the people to choose. It's also unfair to call catholic leaders in RP "taliban" which term refers to terrorist. It's also like calling vatican also a "taliban". Catholicism in RP is deeply connected to vatican. To free up catholism influence in the country is to spread the true gospel of Christ which i believe only a mask in catholism not a true face. I been a catholic here in RP for several years until i got saved 7 years ago and understand the true meaning of salvation.

 

[DHK]

The government support the two contraceptive methods either artificial or natural. It's up for the people to choose. It's also unfair to call catholic leaders in RP "taliban" which term refers to terrorist. It's also like calling vatican also a "taliban". Catholicism in RP is deeply connected to vatican. To free up catholism influence in the country is to spread the true gospel of Christ which i believe only a mask in catholism not a true face. I been a catholic here in RP for several years until i got saved 7 years ago and understand the true meaning of salvation.

Welcome to the board asmcreations.
I appreciate hearing your testimony how the Lord brought you ought of Catholicism into a true understanding of the gospel of Christ. It is so true that the Catholic Church masks salvation by putting on a false face.

The author in the OP did not use the word "taliban" to refer to any terrorist activity but only the bishops method of intimidation of getting what they wanted.

However, I agree with your statement: "it is up to the people to choose."
Good post. :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense. " - Carl Sagan

Beautiful example of his own wisdom,

I have been wondering for many years what Carl Sagan's contribution to REAL science has been?

Or am I just ignorant?

Who could tell me in language an ignorant man may understand?

 

[Alive in Christ]

His contribution?

Gerhard...

"I have been wondering for many years what Carl Sagan's contribution to REAL science has been?

Or am I just ignorant?

Who could tell me in language an ignorant man may understand?

Carl Sagans actual contribution?

This phrase...

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS...AND BILLIONS...AND BILLIONS...AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS, AND...ON AND ON IT GOES

Other than that, probably very little, except decieving probably MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people into believing his nonsense.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard...



Carl Sagans actual contribution?

This phrase...

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS...AND BILLIONS...AND BILLIONS...AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS, AND...ON AND ON IT GOES

Other than that, probably very little, except decieving probably MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people into believing his nonsense.

GE:

O, I see, very clever!

I also thought if he would have come so far if he had to have to invent wheels....

In South Africa we used to have a minister of foreign afairs, Pik Botha; he and Sagan were friends you know. He and Sagan a year or so ago together organised some institution or thing for the discovery of South African intellect, pray. That was the last I have heard of any of the three; no, of the four.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Carl Sagan deserves a lot more than people here give him credit for. According to wiki he helped with the discovery of surface temperatures of Venus, theorized that Titan would have liquid oceans of some sort, and showed that amino acid formation from basic chemicals due to the introduction of radiation. He advocated for science. His Show Cosmos educated and informed many young people to the recent finds and discoveries of science and speculated future things. It initiated many children into the world of science and discovery.