Are SBC's Fundamentalists?

[Pastor Larry]

Momans teaching at NOBTS (an outright lie).

Who is Momans?

Liberalism gone amuck (another opinion but put forward as a definitive fact).

Surely you don't deny that liberalism was rampant in the SBC schools at that time do you? I didn't think anyone disputed that, and that was why the election of Mohler to president at SBTS was so controversial and resulted in a lot of problems for Mohler. You should look up and listen to his talk on this issue. I think it was a two hour presentation called The Cost of Conviction or something like that.

When Mohler came on, within a couple of years the entire faculty at SBTS turned over due the enforcing of the doctrinal basis for the seminary.

So I think it is a bit of historical revisionism to say that liberalism was not running amuck in the SBC schools. It had not yet filtered down entirely to the churches, but the churches were not taking much of a stand against it.

 

[sag38]

Surely, you know a typo when you see it.

In the 1980's it was in the process of being cleaned up.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Surely, you know a typo when you see it.

What's the typo? "Momans"? If you google it, you find that it is the name of several people, none of whom seem connected to the SBC so far as I can tell. That was my question. I googled it to find out what you are talking about because I have never heard of a "Momans" teaching at NOBTS. I still have no idea what you are talking about. Who is it?

In the 1980's it was in the process of being cleaned up.

Not actually. In the 1980s, the conservatives were still in the process of regaining control, and they were just beginning the repopulation of the seminary boards of trustees, so the "process of being cleaned up" had not really begun yet. If I recall correctly, the "clean up" wouldn't take place until the late-80s through the mid-90s.

I am not saying what these people told you was right. I am just commenting on the history and the timeline of it, that there were real reasons to be concerned back in the 1980s.

 

[sag38]

Mormons (Church of Latter Day Saints)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Mormons (Church of Latter Day Saints)

Duh ... I don't know why I didn't think of that.


I have never heard that about NOBTS.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[mcdirector]

I am reminded of an article in the Baptist Standard when I was a young woman about Mormons and Baptists working hand in hand for evangelical purposes. I think it was in Africa but I don't remember for sure. I about dropped my teeth. Apparently I wasn't the only one because in the next edition, there was a correction and many letters to the editor about exactly how they were working together and how they could not join in evangelical efforts.

So, 30 years later I still remember this faux paux. (Mild term I know. It was a dreadful mischaracterization of any work that Mormons and SBC might do together.) And 30 years later, it still concerns me that it was ever written. Not a shining example of what Baptists could and should be. It also made me wonder if the cause of Christ had been so diminished in mission circles at that time that Baptists really were working with Mormons because it was expedient.

Having worked with SBC at the associational level and in the convention, I have found that the span is great - from very liberal to uberfundamental. The above to me was one of the absolute low points.

 

[Phillip]

Meaningless question. SBC churches range from radical right-wingers that would make an Xer jealous to radical left-wing modernists who would make Bishop Pike jealous.

The center has moved right over the past 20 years but that is all that anyone with any knowledge of the SBC can honestly say.

I have to agree that SBC churches range from one extreme to the other. I will say that having been SBC most of my life that the SBC churches in our local area (with the exception of a few--one of which has a pastor that I don't even think is a Christian--so I don't consider that group that splits about once every three years). This is pretty central Bible belt area and I find most SBC's are pretty much on the right side of the scale to varying degrees, but most are pretty Biblical and keep the basic beliefs intact such as "no women pastors", etc. They do tend to move toward contemporary music, but are sticking to the "laid-back" what I call "Adult Contemporary Christian Music" (based on my past radio experience).

I have been visiting a real fundamentalist church in town only because my daughter goes and I want her to keep my grandkids in church; but, I've been disappointed at the level of "fundamentalism" the preacher calls himself. He is a KJVO1611 (by the way, did I mention he has not been in a formal seminary?), he has a habit of naming other churches by name in the services (some of which I attended and he was wrong because I had specific inside knowledge having been a member of those churches), but he would name these churches and tell the church how they were wrong. After attending about 15 times or so I only heard one positive message about accepting Jesus Christ. The other messages were how all Christians today are nothing but sinners and although he had an altar call his sermon rarely mentioned Jesus' grace or even His death and ressurection. He would rather call a Bible the (Non-Inspired Version) in every single message somewhere and how they are the only church that will be right in the city because the other Baptist churches don't believe in the real Bible (which is not true---I have NEVER heard a Baptist church in town say there was anything WRONG with the KJV---they just don't believe it is inspired like this church does.)

His church is not growing and of course the reason is the other churches are giving Christianity a bad name and not "what are we doing wrong, if anything."

Compared to that fundamentalist, I would say that most SBC's are not ridiculous. Most in this area are fundamentalist, but they do use common sense, read their Bibles and definitely worship the same Jesus that we all worship. Even the other local fundamentalists aren't so negative. I also get tired of being screamed at at the top of his voice in a room that is not much bigger than my living room. He's going to have a heart attack some day; so, I guess I really don't know what fundamentalism is if I use him as my basis.

We have one fairly large church that is not called a "Baptist" church but the pastor was an SBC and started his own "Life Church" which is less liberal than some SBC's I have visited and wouldn't go back to--my point is, the Doc is right, it depends on the church and those who are "in control". etc.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello To All,

I would agree with those who point out the diversity of ALL baptist (so-called) churches, and the range of the teaching found in them.

I know a man years ago who was a member of a Baptist Church, that not only tried to teach him the "gift" of tongues, but led his wife into adultery (and this was done by two men, one the Pastor, the other a prominent deacon).

I don't think anyone here would cast all Baptists or Baptist Churches as being represented by this "Baptist" church, seeing it is evident that their actions showed these (two) men to be most likely, children of the devil.

Nor do I think that all who attended that church would be assumed to be lost.

I have been a member of both SBCs and IFBCs, and personally, I believe that there were sincere Christians in all of them, yet, it was the leadership (and a few times doctrine, which, I admit, was rejected due to my own pride) which ultimately led me to find another home.

I am now happily worshipping at an IFBC, and the leadership has my admiration in both doctrine and administration.

Just my two cents.

God bless.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

The problem on this thread is similar to our earlier discussion on extreme IFB churches; you cannot judge a movement by an individual, that is unfair to the movement.

The forum asks the question, “Are SBC’s Fundamentalists?” Is the question asking about individual members or individual churches? If about individuals; then the answer is some are, some aren’t. You could ask the same question about all IFB’s or all Methodists and you would get the same answer. There are heretics and genuine believers in any camp.

Then in our options to answer, one option is “The SBC is apostate.” Well now we are talking about the entire denomination, not an individual church or member so of course the answer is no.

Option 2 says some individuals are ok, but the movement is liberal. Well that cannot be true either. If we want to judge the movement or denomination as a whole we have to go back to the Baptist Faith and Message. This is the one great advantage SBC churches have over IFB churches. The SBC churches have a shared statement of faith that is quite fundamental. Any church can believe anything they want and IFB churches can run from either extreme. When they join the SBC churches are agreeing to a shared statement of faith that includes our fundamentals. Actions over the last 20 years including the removal of missionaries who would not agree to that statement of faith shows that the SBC is willing to fight for those fundamentals. Now you can point to plenty of individual churches or members who fail to live up to that, but at some point they had to at least say they believed it. That means that while the individual members or churches may be liberal, but the movement and denomination is fundamentalist. (as historically defined)

Option 3 is supported by the Baptist faith and message and option 4 does not even warrant a reply. The only hope for Christianity, or the world itself is in or savior not in our denominations.

Many posters are quick to point out the great diversity in Baptist churches and the false teaching at both extremes. The Baptist Faith & Message represents a great attempt on behalf of the SBC to limit that and establish a minimum standard of shared beliefs.

If you church does not have a statement of faith you need one. If you are SBC then you have a start right there, but if you are independent you need to write your own. I have come in as an interim pastor several times over the years to independent churches who had no statement of faith. Without such a statement approved by the members these churches are ripe to be led astray by a strong willed pastor or member. Those of you in healthy churches should be shocked to learn there are churches out there who do not know what they believe, but trust me there are. BEWARE my friends, there are wolves among the sheep and a strong statement of faith is a good way to flush them out.

Ok I cast my vote; the SBC is fundamentalist, on with the discussion.

 

[Phillip]

I wrap up what I think in the statement that "Most SBC churches are fundamentalist and according to the other poster, most follow the Baptist Faith and Message--some going so far as to have it posted in the church, many right on the entrance to the auditorium."

Now, having said this, I have met a couple of pastors, both at the same church one of which has split up three churches in town in the name of fundamentalism (his idea of statement of belief is whatever he feels he wants) and the second was a pastor at the same church who was an outright liar and would go as far as lie to destroy a person who disagreed with him in a business meeting. He went against me once and I wrote an open letter to the church. He tore the letter down right before anybody got copies and stood in front of the church and read the letter adding his own compentary and adding many things I never said---my wife wanted to go out to the car and get a stack of copies, but people were looking at us saying "we don't believe him and several got up and walked out." He lied about my wife who did nothing in the church short of taking care of the nursery. She never did anything contriversial and was always Christlike. One Wednesday night six months later, they voted us out of the church. My wife wanted to go back and go before the church and present a rebuttal. I told her to look at the situation. There are about 100 people showing up in church, but on the Wednesday night there were less than 20 people of which I heard about 15 abstained and the five the voted against us were the OLD deacons who did anything the pastor asked for the past 16 years.
I was very disappointed and hurt by this and for a while I blamed God, but I then realized it wasn't his fault but the fault of a pastor who could not tell the truth. he even told me in his office once that the ends is worth whatever path it takes to get there even if a lie is required. He also had me bring up items in the business meeting so that he wouldn't be associated with it to the public. Being nieve at the time I did his evil plot, but when I found out he was hurting people through lies, I quit and he turned on me. Another time there was a little old lady who spoke her mind in business meetings. They had run a wire across the floor and I told the pastor it was dangerous and needed to be tapped down because someone like "that woman" (I named her) might fall and get hurt. The pastor then grinned and said, well if we are lucky it might kill her and we won't have to put up with her mouth any more.

This last statement was my limit and I let some deacons know what he said and they went straight to the pastor who went straight at my family. I'm glad my daughter wasn't still going, she had married and had a child less than 9 months after she was married, then admitted she wasn't a Christian, just thought she was and joined a bigger church. She asked to introduce her baby to the church after it was born but after she made her profession of faith and was married. She wanted to do like all other babies in the church who carry their babies up, not to be dipped or baptised just introduced and given their first little new testament--just a church thing to introduce new children knowing they were not old enough to be of age. The pastor said that since she was not married when he was conceived he was a bastard child and could not be introduced to the church. She and her husband immediately dropped out of church for over a year, and thankfully are back in a real Fundamental Baptist Church, but at least she is in a church where I disagree with some of the translation doctrines of the Bible I KNOW their pastor is a Christian--he lives it.

I heard later from a lawyer who used to go to the church and left that he was not going to show a half-breed to the church. The baby's father is 1/2 black making the child 1/4 black. He said the pastor had a goal to run them off as soon as possible because we didn't need any blacks mixing with our white girls. I also heard he just soon not have any blacks in the church. (He is full blood Cherokee indian and this is the second church he has ever pastored.)

My point is, a bad apple can mess up any church and don't judge the SBC's on someone who goes bad and makes the church look bad along with the denomination that they claim they are. He claims to be very fundamentalist, but he's about as literal as you can get in some ways and in others he can play the game---so with a person who messes up a church like this it may be hard to spot until you hang around and because he can make any story sound real.

Please don't judge the SBC churches on what you hear on TV either. There is nothing more exciting to big networks than to point out arguments in the SBC national convention every year; but, there has been a change in the convention and don't judge individual churches on the convention. Unlike the Catholics we don't take orders from them, they take orders from the church's representatives and fights will occur, but here in the Bible belt there is a more fundamentalist tone than a lot of churches I have visited outside of this area.

Most people who claim to be Christians in this area usually are if they are SBC because the gospel is preached continuously by all pastors and its hard not to know whether or not you are saved if you go to any of the other churches except for that one country church which was led astray by one man and since most people only show up at morning worship on Sunday, they only have about 15 to 20 show any other time, if that many. So, its not the standard. The other churches have many more committed people and the ratio of those who come every time the doors are open is much closer--so you know at least the people are more committed.

I now go to another church where I admitted before being voted on where we went and we were voted in unnamously without a letter from the other church. We have been told by others that they knew that church's pastor was off the wall and not to worry about our reputations--so, to me I hold my head high, tell the truth and worship God in the most Biblical Church we can find.

 

[Luke2427]

I wrap up what I think in the statement that "Most SBC churches are fundamentalist and according to the other poster, most follow the Baptist Faith and Message--some going so far as to have it posted in the church, many right on the entrance to the auditorium."

Now, having said this, I have met a couple of pastors, both at the same church one of which has split up three churches in town in the name of fundamentalism (his idea of statement of belief is whatever he feels he wants) and the second was a pastor at the same church who was an outright liar and would go as far as lie to destroy a person who disagreed with him in a business meeting. He went against me once and I wrote an open letter to the church. He tore the letter down right before anybody got copies and stood in front of the church and read the letter adding his own compentary and adding many things I never said---my wife wanted to go out to the car and get a stack of copies, but people were looking at us saying "we don't believe him and several got up and walked out." He lied about my wife who did nothing in the church short of taking care of the nursery. She never did anything contriversial and was always Christlike. One Wednesday night six months later, they voted us out of the church. My wife wanted to go back and go before the church and present a rebuttal. I told her to look at the situation. There are about 100 people showing up in church, but on the Wednesday night there were less than 20 people of which I heard about 15 abstained and the five the voted against us were the OLD deacons who did anything the pastor asked for the past 16 years.
I was very disappointed and hurt by this and for a while I blamed God, but I then realized it wasn't his fault but the fault of a pastor who could not tell the truth. he even told me in his office once that the ends is worth whatever path it takes to get there even if a lie is required. He also had me bring up items in the business meeting so that he wouldn't be associated with it to the public. Being nieve at the time I did his evil plot, but when I found out he was hurting people through lies, I quit and he turned on me. Another time there was a little old lady who spoke her mind in business meetings. They had run a wire across the floor and I told the pastor it was dangerous and needed to be tapped down because someone like "that woman" (I named her) might fall and get hurt. The pastor then grinned and said, well if we are lucky it might kill her and we won't have to put up with her mouth any more.

This last statement was my limit and I let some deacons know what he said and they went straight to the pastor who went straight at my family. I'm glad my daughter wasn't still going, she had married and had a child less than 9 months after she was married, then admitted she wasn't a Christian, just thought she was and joined a bigger church. She asked to introduce her baby to the church after it was born but after she made her profession of faith and was married. She wanted to do like all other babies in the church who carry their babies up, not to be dipped or baptised just introduced and given their first little new testament--just a church thing to introduce new children knowing they were not old enough to be of age. The pastor said that since she was not married when he was conceived he was a bastard child and could not be introduced to the church. She and her husband immediately dropped out of church for over a year, and thankfully are back in a real Fundamental Baptist Church, but at least she is in a church where I disagree with some of the translation doctrines of the Bible I KNOW their pastor is a Christian--he lives it.

I heard later from a lawyer who used to go to the church and left that he was not going to show a half-breed to the church. The baby's father is 1/2 black making the child 1/4 black. He said the pastor had a goal to run them off as soon as possible because we didn't need any blacks mixing with our white girls. I also heard he just soon not have any blacks in the church. (He is full blood Cherokee indian and this is the second church he has ever pastored.)

My point is, a bad apple can mess up any church and don't judge the SBC's on someone who goes bad and makes the church look bad along with the denomination that they claim they are. He claims to be very fundamentalist, but he's about as literal as you can get in some ways and in others he can play the game---so with a person who messes up a church like this it may be hard to spot until you hang around and because he can make any story sound real.

Please don't judge the SBC churches on what you hear on TV either. There is nothing more exciting to big networks than to point out arguments in the SBC national convention every year; but, there has been a change in the convention and don't judge individual churches on the convention. Unlike the Catholics we don't take orders from them, they take orders from the church's representatives and fights will occur, but here in the Bible belt there is a more fundamentalist tone than a lot of churches I have visited outside of this area.

Most people who claim to be Christians in this area usually are if they are SBC because the gospel is preached continuously by all pastors and its hard not to know whether or not you are saved if you go to any of the other churches except for that one country church which was led astray by one man and since most people only show up at morning worship on Sunday, they only have about 15 to 20 show any other time, if that many. So, its not the standard. The other churches have many more committed people and the ratio of those who come every time the doors are open is much closer--so you know at least the people are more committed.

I now go to another church where I admitted before being voted on where we went and we were voted in unnamously without a letter from the other church. We have been told by others that they knew that church's pastor was off the wall and not to worry about our reputations--so, to me I hold my head high, tell the truth and worship God in the most Biblical Church we can find.

Thank you for sharing. It sounds like you went through hell. I hate that this kind of crud happens in the body of Christ. It seems to me that the root of this problem is a lack of conviction in the sufficiency of Scripture. It sounds like this pastor is like many "fundamentalist" pastors I know who do not need Bible for what they believe or preach. They consider their viewpoints to be the word of God and preach them as such and run their churches that way.

This is a great evil in our land. And whereas it MAY be keeping a few church members from being as worldly as they might be without it, it is doing ten thousand times the damage as any "good" that may be coming of it.

This is why I started this thread- because of thousands of people who are experiencing things like what you articulate in this post.

We MUST, absolutely MUST, have bible for what we believe, preach and lead our churches by.

If the Bible doesn't clearly say it by either precept or principle then how DARE a pastor say it in the pulpit as if it is the Word of God and how DARE he lead the church based on his viewpoints which are not clearly articulated in Scripture.

It is, in my opinion, the rebirth of Catholicism in baptist circles. Remember Catholic spiritual hierarchy spoke for God where God's word had not spoken and burned people for disagreeing with them.

Your former pastor is a baptist pope and it sounds like many have been "burned" by him.
He no more has Bible for his "ends justify the means" and for the ostracizing of your daughter and grandbaby and for condemning interracial relationships than the man on the moon. But he doesn't care. He doesn't need Bible. He IS THE WORD OF GOD.

Thousands and thousands are like him in this country. Many of them are less belligerent but no less popish.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

He IS THE WORD OF GOD.

Well said. Thank you for your comments Phillip. Sadly yours is a familiar and almost common tale in churches today. Many churches over the years have fallen into the personality trap and ended up following a man instead of God becoming more man led cults than God following churches. This can happen in any church, but as I mentioned earlier, a well stated statement of belief and documented procedures can help a lot. Any preacher who rules with an iron fist has forsaken servant leadership and needs to be replaced.

 

[glfredrick]

A couple of observations concerning Baptist pastors and churches...

1) Many are sick places. That is obvious. Being SBC doesn't make a church more or less sick. I've not noticed that the SBC per se is the primary cause of a sick church.

2) Many Baptist churches have wrong theology. This too is obvious. Just reading the various theological directions from the many posters on this board ought to make this point patently evident (And no, I'm not setting myself up as the single "right" person. We all have blind spots and make theological judgments that may not match up to Scripture.). Wrong theology drives wrong doctrine and practice.

3) Many Baptist churches have called men to lead them that they either: A) do not allow to actually lead, or B) allow lead by a heavy hand as if that pastor is the last word on everything. Both cases are wrong, scripturally. The true leader of any Baptist church is Jesus Christ, who redeems people, who are then led by the Holy Spirit to do God's work together, including calling a man who has the gifting of God required to hold the office of pastor, elder, and/or deacon. Those are the biblical offices, and the Bible has much to say about the men who hold those offices.

4) Tradition is rampant in Baptist churches (of all types) and indeed may drive more of the actions of any given church than does Scripture. In many a case, Scripture is pasted onto tradition in the sense that the pastor or church "speaks" then says, "See, the Bible agrees with me/us..." This is a most blatant sin against God. I see this same issue carried out in post after post here on this board, and I presuppose that most board members here are part of a Baptist or baptistic church. What we see here is likely carried out even more so in the home churches, in which case, I truly feel sorry for many people who are being led by some of the people who are that far off the scriptural mark.

5) There is a "culture of death" that is preached and taught in many Baptist churches. By that, I mean that death is preached rather than life. This is best exemplified by the utter lack of humility and acknowledgment of God's grace in the leaders and members of any given church. They are at war with each other, with other churches, and with the world around them in such a way that the name of God is blasphemed every time they open their mouth. While purporting to stand for God, these churches and leaders actually stand for the enemy of God, also called the "accuser of the brethren."

As a side note to this point, God is all about "re" words. Redemption, repentance, restoration, re-creation, reborn, reformation, realignment, realization, release, realistic, reallocation, reassembling, revelation, refuting, regarding, reawakening, receiving, recharging, repositioning, reclaiming, reorganizing, recommissioning, reconciliation, reconnecting, refreshing, reconstituting, re-dedication, redirecting, redeployment, redressing, refueling, reinforcing, re-energizing, reestablishing, refashioning, refining, refocusing, refurbishing, regathering, and a host of other things.

The words above spell "LIFE". Preaching against things spells death. God is the bringer of life. When we war against our brothers and sisters, we are not doing the work of God, even if they are wrong. We are doing the work of the enemy. Our task should be to lift up the wrong ones in prayer, that almighty God might convict and convince. We can speak out, but not in a way that brings death. We speak out for life.

 

[Jon-Marc]

There haven't been any Northern Baptist Churches since 1950 when the Convention changed its name to American Baptist Convention, then, again in 1972 to American Baptist Churches.

By northern (note mine isn't capitalized) Baptist, I mean I am from the north and was a member of Baptist churches in Michigan. One was called Fundamental Baptist; one was Victory Baptist, and I can't remember the name of the third one.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The danger in dealing with the SBC in this question is one must be careful in speaking of which SBC you are talking about. Are you refering to the SBC of the 30's which didn't want anything to do with the inter/non-denominational aspect of Fundamentalism? Are you referring to the SBC of the 50s and 60s when many of their schools where flooded with modernism? Are you speaking of the SBC of 20xx after the Conservative Resurgence?

It also helps to understand a good portion of what is termed the IFB movement came out of the Northern Baptist Convention. We haven't had any organic ties with what is now the SBC since the 1840s.