The place for women in the Church, volume 3...

[tinytim]

How does Philip's daughters prophesying make them leaders of the church?

I'm not talking about them leading.. .I am referring to the the point that women must be silent... It's hard to prophesy while being silent. Prophesying also has a component of teaching, in that the person Prophesying is revealing a truth from God. I don't think I ever referred to Philip's daughters as leaders. If I did, please show me, I'll recant.

Brother, the passage from I Tim. is clear, there are no "if's" about it. Paul makes the argument for male leadership in the church (yes, he is specifically talking about the church and the Christian home) by referencing scripture (Gen.) and the creation.

You may have a case for "cultural" influence in the I Cor. passage, but not I Tim.

If you will read the passage from Judges 4, you will see that Barak the son of Abinoam was the leader of Israel. Deborah was a judge, but clearly understood that Barak was the leader of Israel... and even chastises Barak for wanting a woman to go with him into battle. So, yes, Deborah was under the headship of her husband (she is called the "wife of Lappidoth) and recognized the leadership of Barak.

peace to youraying:

Yes, I understand this, but being a judge in Israel gave the person a role of leadership. Look at all the other judges. It may have not been the main role, but she would have been recognized as a leader, one whom made decisions that affected the people.

 

[freeatlast]

Good question.

And if it is not cultural, and it dates back to Eden, why is this "male headship" mandate limited to church, as many here claim?

I see this all the time when a person hates God's word and commands they try and use other scripture to prove that they do not have to obey what is written.
The passage in Tim. does go back to Eden because that is what it teaches and that should really be enough for anyone who claims to want to follow the Lord. Now about Deborah she was not a priest/pastor/teacher she was called a judge. She was worked in Israel as a military commander mostly. She had no calling in the religious area as in what we would call the church. She was more like someone in the governmental area. So ladies if you want to go fight in the war go ahead, but leave the leading of the church to the men. Second some of the judges were also priests, but not Deborah. That would have violated God's intent from creation.
Also some point to the daughters of Phillip. There is nothing wrong with women prophesying (preaching). God does not tell a woman she cannot do that. However He does tell her that in the church she is to remain silent. The scripture does not say or even suggest that Philips daughters did their preaching to men or in the church. They could certainly preach in the church if it was to women. But what they cannot do is set up a church with women only and become the Pastor leader or teach or lead a man. For a woman to preach in a church she needs to be part of a biblical church that is lead by men and she is teaching some women in that church. There is even clear commands for that in the NT. The older women are to teach the younger.
All these people who want to do it their way and disobey the word of God by trying to use passages that do not teach what they are trying to suggest. People be aware of them and understand what they really are. They are in rebellion against the Lord, not lovers of the Lord. We have scripture that they will come in the last days and they are numerous in today's world and church. They are spoken of in Jude. Be warned about them and run from them no matter how nice and loving they may try and come across because they are false teachers and false followers. And yes these women have some men who are helping them in their ungodly desire to get the church to reject the word of God.

 

[freeatlast]

Yes, I understand this, but being a judge in Israel gave the person a role of leadership. Look at all the other judges. It may have not been the main role, but she would have been recognized as a leader, one whom made decisions that affected the people.

Deborah was not a priest. She was a judge. In our society a woman and even a Christian woman can run for office if she wants, but she cannot lead in the church in any capacity and she is never to teach a man even in a mixed group. She is not to have a leadership role in the church.

 

[tinytim]

Deborah was not a priest. She was a judge. In our society a woman and even a Christian woman can run for office if she wants, but she cannot lead in the church in any capacity and she is never to teach a man even in a mixed group. She is not to have a leadership role in the church.

So if I am understanding you, you believe that it is OK for women to lead outside of church, just not in it?

 

[canadyjd]

I'm not talking about them leading.. .I am referring to the the point that women must be silent... It's hard to prophesy while being silent. Prophesying also has a component of teaching, in that the person Prophesying is revealing a truth from God. I don't think I ever referred to Philip's daughters as leaders. If I did, please show me, I'll recant.

As I said, you have a point about the I Cor. passage (women keep silent.... etc) being cultural and probably referring to a specific problem in the Corinthian church.

Prophesying does have a teaching component and revealing truth. We don't know the context of the daughter's "prophesying". We do know that Paul instructs older women to teach younger women, so perhaps that was the context... or perhaps they were evangelists like their father.

So, I'll agree with you that scripture doesn't prohibit women from speaking their minds about church business, or praying in church, etc. I'll even agree with you about older women teaching younger women. I might be pursauded that women can "evangelise" men, though I would probably have to be dragged... kicking and screaming.

But, I cannot ignore the clear teaching of scripture, from I Tim., that men are to be the leaders (elders) of any given assembly of Christian believers and that women are prohibited from holding the position of elder (the pastor being an elder)

Yes, I understand this, but being a judge in Israel gave the person a role of leadership. Look at all the other judges. It may have not been the main role, but she would have been recognized as a leader, one whom made decisions that affected the people.

I believe God appointed Deborah as judge to shame the men of Israel for their evil and cowardliness. That appears to be the context of the passage.

No other judge placed themselves under the authority of another, that I can see (perhaps with the exception of Samuel who was the last and gave way to the Kings).

Deborah placed herself under the authority of Barack. You also don't see (if I remember correctly) the standard line "so and so judged Israel for so many years" with Deborah.

Deborah is not the model for leadership. Deborah is the model for how to shame men who refuse to accept the responsibilities of leadership, imho.

BTW, if you haven't already, you will find the "that was a cultural thing" argument will not be used only for women as leaders/pastors. It will be used to justify homose*uality and same-s*x marriage among other things.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

So if I am understanding you, you believe that it is OK for women to lead outside of church, just not in it?

I only believe what scripture says. and in the church men are to be the leaders not women. Outside women can lead as long as they are not leading their own husband.

 

[RAdam]

I have a few questions:

Who did God give the commandment to in Eden? Answer: Adam

Who did God call after the transgression even though Eve was the one deceived and gave the fruit to her husband to eat also? Answer: Adam

Who did Paul say all died in as a result of that transgression? Answer: Adam

Why is Adam the answer to all of these questions? Because, according to God, Adam was the head. God gave him the commandment. He was the one in the leadership role. When his wife was deceived by Satan and broke that commandment, and then gave to him to eat, God called him forward. Why? Because he was the one in the leadership role. Paul said we all died in Adam, by his trangression judgement came unto condemnation, because Adam was the head.

This wasn't a cultural thing. This is God's order of things. He first created man and then created woman to be his help mate, because it was not good for man to be alone. Man was placed in the leadership role, and because of his poor spiritual leadership sin entered into the world, and death by sin. The man was the one God held responsible. It is the same today. Men, we are commanded to step forward and provide good spiritual leadership. If we do not, it isn't the woman's fault, it's ours and God will hold us responsible. The failure by man to do what he was supposed to do was the reason for the fall. Things work best when man fills his role, and when he doesn't things don't go so well.

 

[Jerome]

March 1927 meeting of the Baptist Bible Union.

A woman was to speak.
One Baptist pastor interrupted her and started spouting scripture about women's silence.
Another Baptist pastor bravely stood up for the woman's right to speak

The two men were host pastor John Roach Straton (known as the Fundamentalist pope) and J. W. Gillom (one-time pastor of Fort Worth's Broadway Baptist Church).

How times have changed.

 

[freeatlast]

March 1927 meeting of the Baptist Bible Union.

A woman was to speak.
One Baptist pastor interrupted her and started spouting scripture about women's silence.
Another Baptist pastor bravely stood up for the woman's right to speak

The two men were host pastor John Roach Straton (known as the Fundamentalist pope) and J. W. Gillom (one-time pastor of Fort Worth's Broadway Baptist Church).

How times have changed.

While I am not sure if this event is true I can tell you that there is not enough information to know if she really was permitted by the Lord to speak or not. However to say that the second pastor stood in bravery may not be correct. He may have stood as a fool.

 

[tinytim]

As I said, you have a point about the I Cor. passage (women keep silent.... etc) being cultural and probably referring to a specific problem in the Corinthian church.

Prophesying does have a teaching component and revealing truth. We don't know the context of the daughter's "prophesying". We do know that Paul instructs older women to teach younger women, so perhaps that was the context... or perhaps they were evangelists like their father.

So, I'll agree with you that scripture doesn't prohibit women from speaking their minds about church business, or praying in church, etc. I'll even agree with you about older women teaching younger women. I might be pursauded that women can "evangelise" men, though I would probably have to be dragged... kicking and screaming.

But, I cannot ignore the clear teaching of scripture, from I Tim., that men are to be the leaders (elders) of any given assembly of Christian believers and that women are prohibited from holding the position of elder (the pastor being an elder)I believe God appointed Deborah as judge to shame the men of Israel for their evil and cowardliness. That appears to be the context of the passage.

No other judge placed themselves under the authority of another, that I can see (perhaps with the exception of Samuel who was the last and gave way to the Kings).

Deborah placed herself under the authority of Barack. You also don't see (if I remember correctly) the standard line "so and so judged Israel for so many years" with Deborah.

Deborah is not the model for leadership. Deborah is the model for how to shame men who refuse to accept the responsibilities of leadership, imho.

BTW, if you haven't already, you will find the "that was a cultural thing" argument will not be used only for women as leaders/pastors. It will be used to justify homose*uality and same-s*x marriage among other things.

peace to youraying:

I believe I am closer in agreement with you than it seems, I certainly agree with you more than with Freeatlast.

 

[tinytim]

I only believe what scripture says. and in the church men are to be the leaders not women. Outside women can lead as long as they are not leading their own husband.

You say you only believe what scripture says, but have not been able to show where the Scripture in Timothy applies ONLY to a church setting. The verses preceding and following the passage teaches people how they should live in society... IF I believed like you do, using your logic, I would also be against women leading in society as well.

Since you believe only what the scriptures says, prove to me that passage in Timothy is ONLY speaking about a church setting.

 

[The Archangel]

Just because Christians disagree over women pastors does not mean there are not good Christians on both sides. By declaring that a church that has a woman pastor is unbiblical is an opinion...

It is much more than an opinion. When Paul says "I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man" it is not opinion. And to be in direct contradiction to scripture is...unbiblical.

BTW.. I was raised to believe that a woman shouldn't pastor a church, or have leadership, or even be able to talk in church AT ALL... including business meetings.
I was raised that only the men could come around the altar for prayer, the women set in submission, making sure the children were taken care of.. .and if the woman missed something because of a crying baby, she was to ask her man at home.

She was to wear dresses, keep her mouth shut in submission, and NEVER work outside the home. If she had an opinion, or thought, she was to keep it to herself, after all, God only spoke to the men!

So, you came to your conclusions based on your past experience, not scripture.

I thank God that when I joined a church in the ABC/USA 20 yrs ago, I quickly learned the value of grace and freedom in Christ, and that even women are spiritually gifted equal with men. I learned what it meant that in Christ there are neither male or female.

This shows a great hermeneutical problem. The passage to which you are referring is Galatians 3 and v. 23-29 is dealing with salvation, not the role of women. You are addressing facts not in evidence. It is a common passage referenced by those who share your view. But rather than bolster your argument, it shows hermeneutical ineptitude.

I also want to make it clear, I am not advocating women pastors.. I have worked well beside them, and their churches are flourishing, and people are being saved and discipled.. so I am still in the air about that one. The question I am asking myself is this: is my cultural upbringing keeping me from accepting women pastors as legitimate, or is it really I want to take a theological stand on? I would encourage everyone to examine your beliefs and determine if they are there because of what you were culturally brought up with, or are they there because they are consistent with the whole council of scripture (Not just some prooftext, like this thread is built upon.)

1 Timothy 2 is not a proof text. Proof-texting is what you are doing with Galatians 3.

I guess my stance right now is this.. If a woman believes God is calling her to preach or pastor, she had better obey God. That doesn't mean I am called to listen, or approve of her calling.

So if someone believed God was calling them to leave their family and become a homosexual, you would say that person should obey God?

The issue is this: God does not call someone to be gay and we cannot say that someone who claims God did call them to be gay is approved by God.

In the same way, since Paul appeals to creation in 1 Timothy 2, we cannot say a woman called to be pastor is approved by God. God does not approvingly call people to do things in direct contradiction to His word.

I still believe this passage was cultural to the Ephesians (Where Timothy was pastor).. as was the passages to the Corinthian women...
Since both were Roman cities, it was a reaction to Roman culture.

Of course you would. The problem, which you have never addressed, is that Paul appeals to creation and he never appeals to the culture.

The Archangel

 

[tinytim]

I am graciously bowing out of this debate. To me there are more important issues than what a woman can and cannot do for her Lord.

God bless you all.

 

[RAdam]

Not only did Paul reference creation and the fall, he also not one time mentioned the cultural problem he was supposedly correcting according to those who advocate the "cultural problem" theory. When Paul is correcting the lack of discipline in the Corinthian church he mentioned the specific problem he is addressing. Same thing with the abuse of communion. Same thing with the factions exalting one preacher over another. But, when he gets to women being in subjection unto men, he not one time mentioned the cultural problem he is supposed to be seeking to correct. Interesting.

 

[The Archangel]

I am graciously bowing out of this debate. To me there are more important issues than what a woman can and cannot do for her Lord.

God bless you all.

The problem is that the issue you state (what a woman can and cannot do for her Lord) is not the issue at all. The issue is "What does scripture say."

Blessings on your upcoming studies.

The Archangel

 

[tinytim]

Thanks.. blessings to all.

 

[freeatlast]

You say you only believe what scripture says, but have not been able to show where the Scripture in Timothy applies ONLY to a church setting. The verses preceding and following the passage teaches people how they should live in society... IF I believed like you do, using your logic, I would also be against women leading in society as well.

Since you believe only what the scriptures says, prove to me that passage in Timothy is ONLY speaking about a church setting.

Well you can take the route if you wish. I am not against women leading at all in church or out, but God is. If it were up to me they would be pastors and deacons but God did not see fit to consult with on the issue. He only requires my obedience.

 

[canadyjd]

I am graciously bowing out of this debate. To me there are more important issues than what a woman can and cannot do for her Lord.

God bless you all.

Brother, as has already been said, you are not addressing the real issue here.

I hope and pray this is not the way you are being taught to debate very important issues that Christians ought to address. You make your points and when people bring scripture into the debate, you "graciously bow out" as if it is beneath you to even consider what others are saying.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

I am graciously bowing out of this debate. To me there are more important issues than what a woman can and cannot do for her Lord.

God bless you all.

What is more important, than obeying the Bible?

 

[Jerome]

March 1927 meeting of the Baptist Bible Union.

A woman was to speak.
One Baptist pastor interrupted her and started spouting scripture about women's silence.
Another Baptist pastor bravely stood up for the woman's right to speak

The two men were host pastor John Roach Straton (known as the Fundamentalist pope) and J. W. Gillom (one-time pastor of Fort Worth's Broadway Baptist Church).

I am not sure if this event is true

Oh, it's true all right:

WOMAN SPEAKER BARRED Straton Defends Her Right to Be Heard Despite Injunction That Her Sex Must Be Silent.

to say that the second pastor stood in bravery may not be correct. He may have stood as a fool.

You're suggesting that "Fundamentalist pope" John Roach Straton may have been a fool. Because it was he who stood up to the other pastor's bigotry.