The Atonement;AW Pink

[Iconoclast]

My thoughts and understanding of the priestly work of our Lord come from a perspective that embraces what theologically are known as the doctrines of grace. I believed these truths from scripture before I knew of the terms or history surrounding these terms.
You might not have come to the same conclusions that I have....[yet]::laugh:
If you can improve my understanding of these truths i will be thankful to God.
This first outline comes from AW Pink.
The second one will come from Hugh Martin
Third will be John Owen

Everyone is welcome to come in.:wavey: Be Kind, and Patient with each other.
Let us see if we can edify one another as Holy Brethren,even as we might differ.....on some points.:thumbsup:

Let's take some time and look into the teaching of The Atonement-

1] IT's Source

2]Necessity

3]Pre-requisites

4]Nature

5]Design

6]Efficacy

7]Application

8]Results

9]Effects

10]Extent

11]Typification

12]Reception

What questions would you like answered in looking at the atonement?

What verse,or verses would you like to consider,and in which category?

 

[Iconoclast]

From the introduction;
To what source can we appeal for light, for understanding,for an explanation,and interpretation of the cross?
human reasoning is futile
speculation is profane
opinions of men are worthless
We are to rely on God's word alone

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

What did Christ do on earth to reconcile us to God ?

 

[asterisktom]

My thoughts and understanding of the priestly work of our Lord come from a perspective that embraces what theologically are known as the doctrines of grace. I believed these truths from scripture before I knew of the terms or history surrounding these terms.
You might not have come to the same conclusions that I have....[yet]::laugh:
If you can improve my understanding of these truths i will be thankful to God.
This first outline comes from AW Pink.
The second one will come from Hugh Martin
Third will be John Owen

Everyone is welcome to come in.:wavey: Be Kind, and Patient with each other.
Let us see if we can edify one another as Holy Brethren,even as we might differ.....on some points.:thumbsup:

Let's take some time and look into the teaching of The Atonement-

1] IT's Source

2]Necessity

3]Pre-requisites

4]Nature

5]Design

6]Efficacy

7]Application

8]Results

9]Effects

10]Extent

11]Typification

12]Reception

What questions would you like answered in looking at the atonement?

What verse,or verses would you like to consider,and in which category?

A great topic! Unfortunately, I just now saw this as I was going to bed.:sleeping_2:

Hopefully others will add to this thread tonight. It is very good for us to study out and meditate on what we have in Christ, on just who He is. We covered many of these points you raised as we went through our study on Hebrews in my old Bible study. As I taught through it I often referred to both Owen and Pink esp. Owen and his Commentary and Christologia.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Source.......
1] The will of God
2]The love of God
3]The righteousness of God
4]The glory of God
5]The covenant of God


To understand any doctrine it is helpful to consider and stretch our minds by framing out that teaching by thinking of the where the scriptures lead us on that topic.
Can you think of scriptures that match this outline,that link God as the source of the atonement?

 

[Allan]

The Source.......
1] The will of God
2]The love of God
3]The righteousness of God
4]The glory of God
5]The covenant of God


To understand any doctrine it is helpful to consider and stretch our minds by framing out that teaching by thinking of the where the scriptures lead us on that topic.
Can you think of scriptures that match this outline,that link God as the source of the atonement?

I think before you start laying out mans view of how the atonement works, it is best to begin where it began. In the OT... under the Law. Though there are foreshadows preceding it.. it was in the Law where the Atonement is described.. to whom it is for.. as well as it's purpose.

We all know that God is the source.. but as that source he has given us, with great care, His word to guide us in understanding (as you are desiring to show). However, it is best to begin from the beginning and grasp first what the Law (which established the work and necessity of the atonement) says about it. It is from there we understand the work of Christ and the propitiation for our sins.

just my thoughts.

 

[kyredneck]

.....What questions would you like answered in looking at the atonement?

What verse,or verses would you like to consider,and in which category?

This question would fall into category 11 – Typification. What/who does Azazel represent? I'm for real curious to hear other's thoughts/knowledge on this.

7 And he shall take the two goats, and set them before Jehovah at the door of the tent of meeting.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for Jehovah, and the other lot for Azazel.
9 And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for Jehovah, and offer him for a sin-offering.
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before Jehovah, to make atonement for him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness.
26 And he that letteth go the goat for Azazel shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp. Lev 16

I believe this is the only mention of Azazel in the scriptures.

 

[RAdam]

Azazel, or the scapegoat, is one of those complex types.

- It typifies Jesus Christ in the sense that all the sins of God's people were placed onto it.
- It typifies Jesus in that it is a live goat, as well the sin offering goat that dies also represents Jesus, in that Jesus died and yet lives.
- It typifies the entire body of sin for God's elect people.
- The fit man, by whose hand the scapegoat is taken into the wilderness pictures Jesus taking away the sin of His people into what the bible calls a land no inhabited (literally a land of separation). Jesus forever separated our sins from us, and we shall not be punished with everlasting punishment for them. Now those sins are gone, they are forgotten, God has cast them behind His back, they are as far from us as the east is from the west (an infinite distance).

That whole 16th chapter of Leviticus is filled with pictures of the atoning work of Christ. What a great section of scripture! What a wonderful Savior we have!

 

[psalms109:31]

Reminder

I think it was a reminder of cain and able and the comming of the Lord the one who takes the sin of the world punishment and also takes the sin away of those who trust the Lord and believes in Him and who He is. They are saved the same was as those who trusted in the Lord and His word and looked at the snake lifted up and saved from death.Trusting in the Lord is no way working for our salvation or take away from grace. Only men believe that not God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Azazel, or the scapegoat, is one of those complex types.

- It typifies Jesus Christ in the sense that all the sins of God's people were placed onto it.
- It typifies Jesus in that it is a live goat, as well the sin offering goat that dies also represents Jesus, in that Jesus died and yet lives.
- It typifies the entire body of sin for God's elect people.
- The fit man, by whose hand the scapegoat is taken into the wilderness pictures Jesus taking away the sin of His people into what the bible calls a land no inhabited (literally a land of separation). Jesus forever separated our sins from us, and we shall not be punished with everlasting punishment for them. Now those sins are gone, they are forgotten, God has cast them behind His back, they are as far from us as the east is from the west (an infinite distance).

That whole 16th chapter of Leviticus is filled with pictures of the atoning work of Christ. What a great section of scripture! What a wonderful Savior we have!

RAdam......good post, and Lev.16 ties in with what Allan brought up about some of the ot portions.

kyredneck.....Zondervans bible dictionary says this; on azazel
scapegoat/removal
1] it has been regarded as the name of an evil spirit living in the wilderness to whom the sin laden goat was sent
2] an abstraction meaning removal
3]an epithet of the devil....the goat laden with sin belongs to the devil
12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
19He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

The Source.......
1] The will of God/eph1:11,acts2:23
2]The love of God/ Jer31:3 jn3:16
3]The righteousness of God/ ex34:7 rom3:26 5:21
4]The glory of God/rom11:33-36 jn17:10 ,24 rev4:11
5]The covenant of God/ heb13:20

 

[Iconoclast]

The Necessity; jn3 Lk24
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

It was necessary because of;

1]the will of God

2]the law of God

3]by sin

Can you think of verses that would demonstrate this?

 

[DixieBoy]

I come from a background of observance of the DOA (Day of Atonement.) I thought I would share some of my understanding on this subject. The goat that was sacrificed at the temple was to cover Aaron sins. Then he could enter into the Holy of Holies. The sins of the nation of Israel were placed on the head of the Azazel. Azazel comes from Azaz meaning a rough or high mountain ledge.

The Azazel was taken to this ledge and cast headlong over the cliff, thus killing the animal. The rope attached to the animal was red in color. If the rope remained red it was viewed as God's sign that their sins were not forgiven. If it turned white it was viewed as God's acceptance of the sacrifice and their sins forgiven.

While on the subject of sacrifices I wanted to mention, that parts of most sacrifices were eaten by the priest only. The most important sacrifice was that of the Skip Over. The flesh of it was to be eaten by all citizens of Israel. Its meaning was/is that death skips over us. It is the only sacrifice rolled over into the NT. It is now the bread and wine we take at Communion.

Anyway, my two cents. :jesus:

 

[Iconoclast]

I found this nice online link today if any would like to look more in detail

http://www.godrules.net/library/pink/pink.htm

 

[Iconoclast]

As we have pointed out above, atonement could only be effected by a full satisfaction rendered to the Law; and this involved two things: first, a perfect obedience given to all its precepts; second, a full endurance of its unrelenting punishment. But how could a Divine Person enter the place of subserviency and become subject to the Law’s demands? And again, how could a Divine Person suffer and die? This seems an insolvable problem, yet Divine wisdom provided a glorious solution. One of the Eternal Three, without in anywise ceasing to be God, took upon Him the form of a Servant and became Man. The Divine incarnation was undertaken in order to accomplish sin’s expiation. The eternal Word’s becoming flesh was a gracious means to a glorious end: it was that He might mediate between God and His people.
1. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE MAN
2. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE SINLESS
3. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE HOLY
4. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE MASTER OF HIMSELF
5. THE MEDIATOR MUST ACT VOLUNTARILY
6. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE FEDERALLY UNITED TO HIS PEOPLE
7. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE DIVINE

Are we all agreed on these points? If so let's proceed.

The mediatorial position assumed by Christ and the redemptive work which He performed cannot be rightly understood till they are viewed in connection with the Everlasting Covenant.

The birth of Christ was the begun manifestation of the eternal union between Him and His people.

In the Covenant, Christ had said to the Father, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the Church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me” ( Hebrews 2:12,13).

Most blessedly is this explained in what immediately follows: “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same,” and therefore “He is not ashamed to call them brethren.” Federation is the root of this amazing mercy, covenant — identification is the key which explains it. Christ came not to strangers, but to “brethren”; He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His ( Ephesians 1:4; Matthew 1:21).

Since such a union has existed between Christ and His people from all eternity, it inevitably followed that, when He came to earth, He must bear their sins, and now that He has gone to heaven they must be clothed ( Isaiah 61:10) with all the rewardableness of His perfect obedience. This is the strongest buttress of all in the walls of Truth, yet the one which has been most frequently assailed by its enemies. Men have argued that the punishment of the Innocent as though He were guilty was an outrage upon justice. In the human realm, to punish a man for something of which he is neither responsible nor guilty, is, beyond question, unjust. But this principle did not apply to Christ, for He had voluntarily identified Himself with His people in such an intimate way that it could be said, “For both He that sanctifieth, and they who are sanctified, are all of one ” ( Hebrews 2:11).

When we say that the union between Christ and His people is a federal one, we mean that it is of such a nature as to involve an identification of legal relations and reciprocal obligations and rights: “By the obedience of One shall many be made [legally constituted] righteous” ( Romans 5:19).

God’s elect were “chosen in Christ” ( Ephesians 1:4). They are “created in Christ Jesus” ( Ephesians 2:10). They were circumcised in Him ( Colossians 2:11). They are “made the righteousness of God in him ” (2 Corinthians 5: 21). In view of this ineffable union, Scripture does not hesitate to say, “We are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones” ( Ephesians 4:30).

Can you see how clearly this unfolds in the scriptures?

 

[kyredneck]

7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the Tent of Meeting.
8 Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats--one lot for the Lord, the other lot for Azazel or removal.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord's lot fell and offer him as a sin offering.
10 But the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel or removal shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over him, that he may be let go into the wilderness for Azazel (for dismissal). Lev 16 Amplified Bible

....The Azazel was taken to this ledge and cast headlong over the cliff, thus killing the animal. The rope attached to the animal was red in color. If the rope remained red it was viewed as God's sign that their sins were not forgiven. If it turned white it was viewed as God's acceptance of the sacrifice and their sins forgiven.....

Where in the scriptures are any of these instructions given? Where in the scriptures is it articulated that they were to do it this way? I understand the scriptures to say that the goat was to be set free, not killed. And I see no mention whatsoever of a red rope that was to turn white. This has to be Jewish superstition.

 

[psalms109:31]

I like many things Pink teaches and is very wise. I am not a hyper pink or a hyper anything. I believe the Scripture over men. I agree He secured a people that was
already His, but also included with them those who have heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. It is awesome that God will include a dog like me begging at the table. Praise God through Jesus.

 

[Allan]

As we have pointed out above, atonement could only be effected by a full satisfaction rendered to the Law; and this involved two things: first, a perfect obedience given to all its precepts; second, a full endurance of its unrelenting punishment. But how could a Divine Person enter the place of subserviency and become subject to the Law’s demands? And again, how could a Divine Person suffer and die? This seems an insolvable problem, yet Divine wisdom provided a glorious solution. One of the Eternal Three, without in anywise ceasing to be God, took upon Him the form of a Servant and became Man. The Divine incarnation was undertaken in order to accomplish sin’s expiation. The eternal Word’s becoming flesh was a gracious means to a glorious end: it was that He might mediate between God and His people.
1. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE MAN
2. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE SINLESS
3. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE HOLY
4. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE MASTER OF HIMSELF
5. THE MEDIATOR MUST ACT VOLUNTARILY
6. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE FEDERALLY UNITED TO HIS PEOPLE
7. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE DIVINE

Are we all agreed on these points? If so let's proceed.

I note you stopped here.. why?

How come you didn't go into 'whom' the Law declared the atonement was to be given 'for'? You will note in that that is was for ALL Israel, regardless whether an Israelite believed or not, it was made on his behalf.

Can you see how clearly this unfolds in the scriptures?

Nope.. not unless one wishes to ignore parts of the atonement that make it "Lawfully" acceptable unto to God.

I see Pink doing quite a bit of cherry picking personally to formulate his view, while leaving out aspects that contradict it.

 

[Amy.G]

Where in the scriptures are any of these instructions given? Where in the scriptures is it articulated that they were to do it this way? I understand the scriptures to say that the goat was to be set free, not killed. And I see no mention whatsoever of a red rope that was to turn white. This has to be Jewish superstition.

I was going to ask the same thing, but I thought maybe I just missed something. I guess I didn't after all. I've never heard of this.

 

[kyredneck]

I was going to ask the same thing, but I thought maybe I just missed something. I guess I didn't after all. I've never heard of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel

"The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910) contains the following entry:

The Rabbis, interpreting "Azazel" as Azaz ("rugged"), and el ("strong"), refer it to the rugged and rough mountain cliff from which the scapegoat was cast down on Yom Kippur when the Jewish Temples in Jerusalem stood. (Yoma 67b; Sifra, Aḥare, ii. 2; Targum Jerusalem Lev. xiv. 10, and most medieval commentators). Most modern scholars, after having for some time endorsed the old view, have accepted the opinion mysteriously hinted at by Ibn Ezra and expressly stated by Nachmanides to Lev. xvi. 8, that Azazel belongs to the class of "se'irim," goat-like spirits, jinn haunting the desert, to which the Israelites were accustomed to offering sacrifice. (Compare "the roes and the hinds," Cant. ii. 7, iii. 5, by which Sulamith administers an oath to the daughters of Jerusalem. The critics were probably thinking of a Roman faun.)"

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Allan,
You asked this;

I note you stopped here.. why?

How come you didn't go into 'whom' the Law declared the atonement was to be given 'for'? You will note in that that is was for ALL Israel, regardless whether an Israelite believed or not, it was made on his behalf.


Quote:
Can you see how clearly this unfolds in the scriptures?

Nope.. not unless one wishes to ignore parts of the atonement that make it "Lawfully" acceptable unto to God.

I see Pink doing quite a bit of cherry picking personally to formulate his view, while leaving out aspects that contradict it.
__________________

I stopped or paused because I believe this is where we as believers start to drift apart in our understanding of what was accomplished at the cross.
I am glad that you raised these questions, as I believe with every area of doctrine is given as it is so that as we go over it our understanding of God's love will grow.

Let's pause and look at each issue....no rush here....let's see how many good questions we can ask and answer.

Allan, you asked this
;

How come you didn't go into 'whom' the Law declared the atonement was to be given 'for'? You will note in that that is was for ALL Israel, regardless whether an Israelite believed or not, it was made on his behalf

This is interesting and instructive in that it makes me think of this;

The High Priest wore 12 stones on his breatplate to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
Allan will you admit at this point that the high priest was not interceding for any of the non-covenant gentile nations at this point of redemptive history? You state that it was for "all Israel".
Do you agree on this,at least during the OT.period?

The question of whom the all Israel is will unfold several times in this study. I know that you and several other brothers and sisters here try to stress that the work of the cross was designed for every person who was ever born. I do not think this position can be maintained scripturally and that's where I think we can take time and re-examine this issue.

For example when we interacted on the Eph5;25 discussion you said;

However the scripture DOES teach He died for all.. in not only the very verse you and I are discussing but also various others including another of Johns writings where he uses the same language again.. though in much more specific wording (1 John 2:2)
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Or the NLT

Quote:
1 Jo 2:2 He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

and this;

The propitiation was made for ALL.

you said these things in post 29......then as I questioned you and you responded with this in post 32;

Simple.. The atonement in and of itself does not and has never taken away anything. Otherwise all those whom God foreknew would be BORN saved.

The propitiation must be received by faith as stated by scripture (Rom 3:25)

I agree that through faith we receive the work of Jesus on the cross!
However.....how do you say as you clearly have stated that Jesus takes away the sins of the unbelieving world? If they are not given grace and faith...how are their sins taken away?

Propitiation means to turn away the wrath of God. You say propitiation has been made for all! At the white throne judgement it will not be the love of God that the unbeliever receives.....but the wrath of God.......so why or in what way can you state that propitiation has been made for all,,,in any sense whatsoever?

This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial pointon this topic

Allan...[or anyone else ...are welcome] to try and explain how you see this view as possible. I believe God speaks in clear language on this.
Let me know what verses you think show your view better.I have stated up front that at this point I have a definate point of view[1689 confessional position] is the closest summary of where I stand biblically.

Also...anytime we quote any theologian we are interested on the scripturethey offer...I have posted links to Pink's book and others on the atonement as a starting point and a base of operations.
As time permits, feel free to illustrate where the man "cherry picks" cut and paste and we can look at it.:thumbsup:

 

[DixieBoy]

The Rite

Two goats were procured, similar in respect of appearance, height, cost, and time of selection. Haying one of these on his right and the other on his left (Rashi on Yoma 39a), the high priest, who was assisted in this rite by two subordinates, put both his hands into a wooden case, and took out two labels, oneinscribed "for the Lord" and the other "for Azazel." The high priest then laid his hands with the labels upon the two goats and said, "A sin-offering to the Lord"—using the Tetragrammaton; and the two men accompanying him replied, "Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever." He then fastened a scarlet woolen thread to the head of the goat "for Azazel"; and laying his hands upon it again, recited the following confession of sin and prayer for forgiveness: "O Lord, I have acted iniquitously, trespassed, sinned before Thee: I, my household, and the sons of Aaron—Thy holy ones. O Lord, forgive the iniquities, transgressions, and sins that I, my household, and Aaron's children—Thy holy people—committed before Thee, as is written in the law of Moses, Thy servant, 'for on this day He will forgive you, to cleanse you from all your sins before the Lord; ye shall be clean.'" This prayer was responded to by the congregation present (see Atonement, Day of). A man was selected, preferably a priest, to take the goat to the precipice in the wilderness; and he was accompanied part of the way by the most eminent men of Jerusalem. Ten booths had been constructed at intervals along the road leading from Jerusalem to the steep mountain. At each one of these the man leading the goat was formally offered food and drink, which he, however, refused. When he reached the tenth booth those who accompanied him proceeded no further, but watched the ceremony from a distance. When he came to the precipice he divided the scarlet thread into two parts, one of which he tied to the rock and the other to the goat's horns, and then pushed the goat down (Yoma vi. 1-8). The cliff was so high and rugged that before the goat had traversed half the distance to the plain below, its limbs were utterly shattered. Men were stationed at intervals along the way, and as soon as the goat was thrown down the precipice, they signaled to one another by means of kerchiefs or flags, until the information reached the high priest, whereat he proceeded with the other parts of the ritual.

The scarlet thread was a symbolical reference to Isa. i. 18; and the Talmud tells us (ib. 39a) that during the forty years that Simon the Just was high priest, the thread actually turned white as soon as the goat was thrown over the precipice: a sign that the sins of the people were forgiven. In later times the change to white was not invariable: a proof of the people's moral and spiritual deterioration, that was gradually on the increase, until forty years before the destruction of the Second Temple, when the change of color was no longer observed (l.c. 39b).J


Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=2203&letter=A&search=Azazel#1#ixzz13Jf4v4bA

The goat was led away to a rocky mount and was killed in public view. Our Lord was led away in like fashion to Golgotha, a rocky mount and was lifted up and slain so all could see.