Interpretation of 1 Jn 2:1-2

[zrs6v4]

You still seem to not be listening.

Its possible

The point should be understood that God was working THROUGH Israel not ONLY with the Jews.. IE.. the Atonement was not only for the Jews.

This is clear and true. I agree

Israel was the vessel used to bring forth the word, the promises of God and even eventually Christ Jesus.
It was the example of how God works toward man AND His spiritual people

I agree here also.

You seem to be missing a crucial part entirely.. it was for a NATION men not a spiritual people and as such you still have to DEAL with the issue that God commends the atonement to be for ALL and not only for those who believe.

Ok this doesn't make to much sense, your right I don't quite get your reasoning. Here is what I see:

1. The Atonement was made for those members of Israel alone (including believers and unbelievers due to the physical aspect). What I mean by physical aspect is that the nation of Israel was a physical nation of God, but the church are not merely the physical church, but spiritual and thus the universal church by true faith in Christ.
2. Those outside of Israel could become a part of Israel.
3. The Atonement was for the Descendants of Abraham through the promised line, but in the NT was for the Spiritual descendants of Abraham only. So Old is physical and New is spiritual which was a hard part for the apostles to grasp at first, namely Peter until his vision. He saw the atonement by Christ as being made for Israel only, but it was for many people of many different nations. This is why they began preaching to the Gentiles because God was saving them.
4. The main point is that the Atonement was ultimately made for those who were a part of Israel (in the Old Covenant), and not the whole world meaning all nations (in the Old Covenant), unless they became a part of Israel (which I am foggy on how that was done). Whether there were believers or unbelievers in Israel was not the focal point, but it is the focal point in the spiritual realm of the New Testament because that is who the atonement was made for. This is why the children of God can be of every tribe, tongue, and nation by entering in Christ's body through faith.

I must reinstate to clarify my view. The Old Testament was a physical sign of atonement and a shadow of the atonement to come. It was not able to save. It was made for Israel including all who entered Israel, and included atonement for believers and unbelievers at the time. The New Testament atonement is for the church only. The church meaning spiritually reborn into Christ. The church includes all believers from all the world. It does not apply to unbelievers just as it didn't to other nations in the Old Covenant. Believers are the spiritual nation of Israel and will be apart of the new Jerusalem. The huge key in my view is that the nation of Israel was physical and the church is spiritual (I wanted to clarify this).

Please explain where I don't quite catch your point, again it is possible I'm missing your thrust

 

[Allan]

Allan,you posted this;


I do not agree with what you state here as I think your view departs from scripture in this way;

I understand you disagree and that is ok.
However watch how scripture actually agrees with me, in the very passage you quote.

jesus said;26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

There are two things at work here.
1. God promised (prophesied) judicial hardening because of Israel's continued unbelief. It is not that God just left them in unbelief but that according to scripture due to their continued unbelief God hardened their hearts.

2. Their hearts were not always hard, eyes blind and ears deaf as evidenced in verse 15. it states that this people heart waxed (grew or became) gross (hardened). -I'm not dismissing original sin.. I'm saying their was a time as God was dealing and revealing truth where they could have believed but due to continuing in unbelief... God gave them over and sealed them IN that unbelief. We know that this quoted prophesy is from Isa 6:9-10, and we also KNOW that Israel was not in a loving unified relationship with God, but was in idolatry and unbelief already. The continued and increased preaching would only make those who have already chosen such a view would harden them further because they were ALREADY under judgment and had be given over to their choice and caused them to continue believing the lie and thus not be saved. (Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12)

3. Note their conversion was a possibility but their desire to not believe solidified them in their choice. Conversion can not be even 'considered hypothetical' unless something was done/ or would be, for it to be so.

Therefore the above is without question NOT that only some will ever know, see and hear and others will not.. But that those whom God has already been dealing with via His Spirit in revealing spiritual truths, as they choose to not believe their hearts will become hardened (and judicially so in that God makes it so they will continue in that choice) because they have chosen to close their eyes and ears to keep from being converted and God save them.

 

[Allan]

Ok this doesn't make to much sense, your right I don't quite get your reasoning. Here is what I see:

1. The Atonement was made for those members of Israel alone (including believers and unbelievers due to the physical aspect). What I mean by physical aspect is that the nation of Israel was a physical nation of God, but the church are not merely the physical church, but spiritual and thus the universal church by true faith in Christ.

That is all fine and good.
And yes the church is spiritual.. but it is also physical.. question:
Is everyone in your church body saved, or all NT Church bodies saved?
If not, is it not like physical Israel, who also had spiritual Israel in it?

Thus the fact remains.. regardless of whether we are agreeing on the subject of Israel being representative.. you STILL have yet to deal with the fact that the SoA was to be made for believers AND unbelievers alike in that nation. (what ramifications does this have in relation to church being like Israel in that it to is physical?)

So 'hopefully' you can see it doesn't matter if we look at the nation in a physical sense.. the point is that the atonement was a physical act with spiritual consequences and that this action was made on behalf ALL in that group (Israel) whether they believed or not without partiality.

That is an inescapable truth that can not be walked around nor can or should it be ignored or tossed to the side. It MUST be dealt with. God could have just as easily said make the sacrifice of atonement for those who will believe only. Yet God did not, it was for ALL in Israel irregardless of faith.

2. Those outside of Israel could become a part of Israel.[/QUOTE
This is true.. but what ALSO needs to be remembered is that all could come in.. and none were hindered from coming.

3. (1)The Atonement was for the Descendants of Abraham through the promised line, but in the NT was for the Spiritual descendants of Abraham only. (2)So Old is physical and New is spiritual which was a hard part for the apostles to grasp at first, namely Peter until his vision. He saw the atonement by Christ as being made for Israel only, but it was for many people of many different nations. This is why they began preaching to the Gentiles because God was saving them.

Ok.. I will deal with the above but in order to make what I'm doing flow better than than chopping up your above.. I placed (?) these in bold to relate to what portion I am addressing.

(1). No.. the Atonement was NOT made only for the descendants of Abraham.. otherwise all those who came into Israel (not being Abraham's descendants) were not covered under the SoA and nor would it extend through Christs death toward the world either (no matter which theological view one holds to regarding whom it was made for). The Law had to be fulfilled and thus it had to extend beyond just Abraham's natural seed.

The SoA was made on behalf of all Israel (believers and unbelievers alike), and in the NT Christ not only fulfilled the Law for the Atonement to be valid but extended it to the Gentile Nations.. thus making it so no one has to be a Jew or of the Jewish faith in order for the salvation of God to be toward them.

(2) You keep trying to divide physical and spiritual. The OLD wasn't physical and NEW spiritual as if they are at odd with one another. The NEW explains the OLD were the OLD had not yet revealed certain truths. However the Atonement was revealed, understood, and established. It was the physical act with spiritual consequences.

Also, God didn't tell Peter the Atonement was for many people of many Nations. It was for all people of the many nations to those who believed. And I agree that is why they went to the Gentiles because God was indeed saving them.

4. The main point is that the Atonement was ultimately made for those who were a part of Israel (in the Old Covenant), and not the whole world meaning all nations (in the Old Covenant), unless they became a part of Israel (which I am foggy on how that was done). Whether there were believers or unbelievers in Israel was not the focal point, but it is the focal point in the spiritual realm of the New Testament because that is who the atonement was made for. This is why the children of God can be of every tribe, tongue, and nation by entering in Christ's body through faith.

No.. in the above you are fogging scripture with a theological view. That is why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am trying to show.

Scripture states emphatically that there is two focal points of the atonement.
1. it is made for all - believer and non alike without partiality
2. it's purpose was to have a specific effect on those who receive it/believe

Look.. you state that Christ fulfilled the Law even in the atonement.. and then turn around and state that He didn't fulfill the Law in accordance to the Law cause that is not what Christ came to do.

You can not have "A" + "Non-A" = "A"
Either Christ was obedient to the Law and fulfilled it through doing all that was required, which includes being made for believers and nonbelievers alike, or Christ didn't fulfill the Law regarding the Sacrifice of Atonement but instead only died for some. That is the crux of the issue.

Christ died for all of Israel but and in so doing extended it to all nations and not just Israel. And as such in dieing for all in the one nation also died for all in every nation. Thus Christ extended the umbrella of who would be God vehicles for His will, work and purpose.. from one nation to all, obtaining for Himself a people out of them. This is the intent of Johns writing in 1 John.. being that He was not the propitiation for our sins only (the Jewish nation/people) but for the sins of the whole world (Gentile nations/peoples).

I must reinstate to clarify my view. The Old Testament was a physical sign of atonement and a shadow of the atonement to come. It was not able to save. It was made for Israel including all who entered Israel, and included atonement for believers and unbelievers at the time.

It was a shadow, but a shadow represents the truth it is depicting. You state in the OT the Atonement was for all.. believers and non-alike. The shadow according to scripture is not what it does, for whom it was made, and why.. the shadow was of Christ Jesus. All the rest are specifics of what it is about and does, but the shadow was fortelling of who was to come - The promised Messaiah, the One and final Lamb, ect...

The New Testament atonement is for the church only. The church meaning spiritually reborn into Christ. The church includes all believers from all the world. It does not apply to unbelievers just as it didn't to other nations in the Old Covenant.

You have not proved this in any manner. I can show and have shown that the Atonement Christ made in the NT is made on behalf of all mankind. I can show how it consistently flows from the OT and continues unchanged in the NT in purpose, function, and application. It does not change one aspect in relation to the church in this knowledge but I do see where it will affect and change one theological perspective.

Believers are the spiritual nation of Israel and will be apart of the new Jerusalem. The huge key in my view is that the nation of Israel was physical and the church is spiritual (I wanted to clarify this).

The nation is Israel was also spiritual just as it was physical. If it was not spiritual also how could any OT saint be noted in the Halls of Faith?
And so just like Israel the church is spiritual AND it is physical too.
Again, are all members in your church body saved?
Are all members of all NT churches (referring more to a theological view) saved?
Answer: No (without question at least to the last one )

Please explain where I don't quite catch your point, again it is possible I'm missing your thrust

Hope that helps, probably wont, but hope it helps you understand where I am coming from.. that really is most important for now, anything is an act of God (toward you or me )

 

[Iconoclast]

Good response Allan. Although we might view it somewhat differently we as believers can certainly agree on how man is fully responsible before God.

I find several verses that speak so powerfully to this issue. Because we discuss and study online using a keyboard,sometimes we have to take a step back and reflect on how God in His mercy has allowed us to have a hearing ear, and not as you point out in your post,hardened us in our sin.

The pleading of scripture is for all men everywhere to repent and believe,,,to look and live. Like the man with the withered hand....Jesus commanded him to stretch forth his hand...[the thing he could not do,but God enabled him]

It is scary how many get some light of gospel truth and turn from it ....at a certain point without remedy.

1He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

 

[webdog]

Like the man with the withered hand....Jesus commanded him to stretch forth his hand...[the thing he could not do,but God enabled him]

Don't want to derail this good discussion too much...but are you saying he was unable to respond to Christ telling him to stretch out his hand to be healed?

 

[Humblesmith]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, and it appears to have wandered a bit as most threads do. However, regarding 1 John 2:1-2, and the use of "us" and "whole world":

The same author in the same chapter, in the same context, uses these same terms and provides some insight:

2:15-17: Don't love the world. It has lust, pride, and is passing away, while those who love the Father will live forever.
3:1: The world does not know us.
3:13: The world hates you.
3:17: speaks of worldly goods that anyone can have.
4:1: false prophets are in the world.
4:3-5: those who deny Jesus are in the world, contrasted with those who have God in them.
4:17: "we" are in the world.
5:4-5: the world is something to be overcome.
5:19: the world lies in the power of the evil one.

So if "us" means Jewish Christians, and "world" means Gentile Christians, then John is saying that some Christians are lustful, prideful, are passing away, hates the Jewish believers, have false prophets in their churches, deny Jesus, and are in the power of satan.

My friends, it just doesn't fit. The only contextual interpretation of 1 John is that "us" are all Christians and "they" are the non-Christians. Any other interpretation is wrenching most of the book from its moorings. Especially with 4:17.

Thus 1 John 2:1-2 means exactly what it says, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, the lost world, the world that needs a savior.

 

[Iconoclast]

Don't want to derail this good discussion too much...but are you saying he was unable to respond to Christ telling him to stretch out his hand to be healed?

Hello Webdog,

Many times Jesus instructed or commanded those he ministered to.....to do what they could not do in and of themselves,

stretch forth your hand
take up your bed and walk
lazurus come forth

in the same way...dead sinners are told to repent and believe the gospel.

God enables them to obey....he makes them willing and able to obey./

1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[webdog]

Hello Webdog,

Many times Jesus instructed or commanded those he ministered to.....to do what they could not do in and of themselves,

stretch forth your hand
take up your bed and walk
lazurus come forth

in the same way...dead sinners are told to repent and believe the gospel.

God enables them to obey....he makes them willing and able to obey./

Picking up the bed and raising oneself from the dead, I agree. Holding (stretching) your hand out for Christ to heal, I disagree. His hand was crippled, his arm was not.

When Christ tells a dead person to repent and believe, they most definitely can repent and believe or Christ holds no power over death.

 

[ituttut]

My friends, it just doesn't fit. The only contextual interpretation of 1 John is that "us" are all Christians and "they" are the non-Christians. Any other interpretation is wrenching most of the book from its moorings. Especially with 4:17.

Thus 1 John 2:1-2 means exactly what it says, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, the lost world, the world that needs a savior.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", I John 2:1-2."


I agree with your last statement, for us making claim for himself and the rest of God's chosen people. God divided them from the world, and this is the point John wishes his people to se, i.e. Jesus did die for the Whole World, and not just them.

John was appointed by Jesus to be an Apostle to the Jew, so John (as well as Peter, James, and Jude) writes to the Jew. Scripture shows that only Saul/Paul was chosen to be an Apostle to both Jew and Gentile. In scripture, we cannot find where John has authority from God to go the Gentile with the gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven of by the Grace of God, through faith they are justified.

 

[Humblesmith]

1 John 2:15: "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Why would John be telling Jews to not love Gentile believers? And why would people who love Gentile Christians not have the Father's love? Answer: John is not saying this. Rather, John is saying don't love the non-Christian system.

1 John 4:17: "By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world."
How can Jewish Christians ("we") be in Gentile Christians? Answer: They're not. Rather, all Christians are are on the earth.

1 John 5:4-5: "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Why would Jewish Christians need to overcome Gentile Christians? Why would the faith of Jews cause them to overcome Gentile believers? Are we not one in Christ? Answer: John is not saying this. Rather, the faith of all Christians overcomes the non-Christian system.


1 John 5:19: "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
How can Gentile Christians be in the power of the evil one, presumably Satan? Answer: They're not. Rather, "we" (all Christians, both Jew and Genile) are from God, and the world is the non-Christians who are under the power of the evil one.

I listed several other uses of world in 1 John in the earlier post. So every time in 1 John, the term "us" and "we" denotes all Christians, both Jew and Gentile, and the term "world" includes all the humans in existence, typically the non-Christians. To take one instance of world in 2:2 and make it say different than the rest of the book is breaking every rule of context and interpretation. John would not have radically switched meaning of one term in the same chapter.

 

[zrs6v4]

That is all fine and good.
And yes the church is spiritual.. but it is also physical.. question:
Is everyone in your church body saved, or all NT Church bodies saved?
If not, is it not like physical Israel, who also had spiritual Israel in it?

Of course not. Only true believers are saved and a part of Christ's church. I agree there is a resemblance in that both Israel and my church had believers and unbelievers in it. The key is that Israel was a physical shadow of a spiritual (not that spiritual wasn't existing then as it is now).

I do see your view a little clearer. My main point is that the Atonement was made for Israel not all people. You are saying the Atonement Jesus made was for all people. It seems in my estimation that Jesus paid for The New Israel. I say it like that to show my connection. The New Israel is the invisible body of Christ from all over the world.

The atonement of the Old Covenant was physical in its sign in that the blood of the animals didn't pay for sin. Spiritually, then, God's people were set aside for Christ's future payment for their sins. I still see the sign of the atonement, then, being physical, pointing to the spiritual New Covenant. Not that the Old or New were spiritual or physical only.

When the Scripture shows that God shows no partiality it does not mean between believer and unbeliever it means between Jew, Gentile, or other nations.

You said, "Look.. you state that Christ fulfilled the Law even in the atonement.. and then turn around and state that He didn't fulfill the Law in accordance to the Law cause that is not what Christ came to do."

You must define what the whole Law fulfillment means. Why didn't Christ make many sacrifices? The huge point of fulfillment is that the animals paid for Israel and Christ paid for His body, the church. To me your point is like saying that marriage was a sign of Christ and His church, so to fulfill that perfectly we all have to be females and He is a male. I don't think in order for Christ to fulfill the Law perfectly it clearly showed that He paid for believers and unbelievers alike.