Some very good discussion and don't want it sidetracked, so opening "another salvo" in the discussion.
IF you are new to the thread, PLEASE read jbh's now-closed poll and the comments already made before posting.
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Where do Babies Go When they Die - Continued
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Some very good discussion and don't want it sidetracked, so opening "another salvo" in the discussion.
IF you are new to the thread, PLEASE read jbh's now-closed poll and the comments already made before posting.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Judge
I will let God be the judge over babies and will not make assumption of where babies end up or give someone a false hope. Only trust in Jesus is the only guarantee for salvation, trust in Jesus is not a work to God only men try to make it that way. God does not consider it a work and I don't either. It is something I was thinking about and wondered what you all thought about the above statement from me in the quotes.
I will let God be the judge over babies and will not make assumption of where babies end up or give someone a false hope. Only trust in Jesus is the only guarantee for salvation, trust in Jesus is not a work to God only men try to make it that way. God does not consider it a work and I don't either. It is something I was thinking about and wondered what you all thought about the above statement from me in the quotes.
Bobby Hamilton
New Member
From the other thread:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Who receives eternal life? The whosoever that believes.
You must believe in order to receive eternal life.
No one seeks after God. That's why God seeks us through the witness of creation, the bible, the preaching of the gospel and most importantly the Holy Spirit. NO one is out of God's reach.
To be spiritually dead does not mean unable to respond to God. Adam is proof of that. Spiritual death is separation from God due to our own personal sin against Him.
There are 2 types of death; physical and spiritual. Babies die physically because of the curse of Adam, but spiritual death occurs from willfully disobeying God. A baby cannot do that.
That is not what the bible teaches.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Who receives eternal life? The whosoever that believes.
You must believe in order to receive eternal life.
No one seeks after God. That's why God seeks us through the witness of creation, the bible, the preaching of the gospel and most importantly the Holy Spirit. NO one is out of God's reach.
To be spiritually dead does not mean unable to respond to God. Adam is proof of that. Spiritual death is separation from God due to our own personal sin against Him.
There are 2 types of death; physical and spiritual. Babies die physically because of the curse of Adam, but spiritual death occurs from willfully disobeying God. A baby cannot do that.
I didn't miss where Paul said we are justified by faith. In fact, I recognize that as a great truth. I do deny that Paul means we become rightous before God by exercising faith in Christ, and it will become apparent in one reads all of Romans.
First of all, justified means declared righteous, not made righteous. Plug that definition in everywhere you see the word in scripture and it will always work out. Made righteous will not.
Secondly, Paul said it is God that justifieth. It is not man that justifieth, but God. Paul also said that to the man who believeth in Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. God didn't justify the godly, but the ungodly. He calleth those things which be not as though they were. God justified you before you were godly. That word that is translated counted is the greek word logizomai. That word is an accounting term which gives the idea of accounting facts and reality, things that already exist. Paul used that same word in chapter 8 when he said, "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." He's not making something so, but expressing and seeing something which is reality or fact. What Paul is saying is, to the man who trusts in God rather than trying to work his way into righteousness, his faith accounts himself righteous. The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. You were righteous before you placed faith in Christ, your faith is that which sees this fact and applies it to your conscience.
Furthermore, Paul said, "being justified by faith we have peace with God." Didn't say anything about God having peace with us. That's because God doesn't have peace with us through faith. God has peace with us, according to Paul in Colossians, through the blood of His cross. We have peace with God through faith. Being justified by faith is something for us, not God. Paul goes on to say, "by whom (Jesus) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Paul said we have access by faith into the grace we are already standing in.
Finally, and the death knell in this argument, we have Paul at the tail end of Romans 4 speaking of Jesus Christ: "who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." Now the word for is the same in english in greek in both parts of that sentence. It must have the same definition in both cases. Why was Christ delivered? Paul said for our offences. He was delivered because of, on account of our offences. He wasn't delivered to gain our offences, but because of them. Thus, we see what the second half of that verse says. He was raised again because of, on account of our justification. He was raised again because we had been justified. That's because we were justified by the death of Christ. Now His resurrection testifies of that fact. Thus Paul says, "who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
First of all, justified means declared righteous, not made righteous. Plug that definition in everywhere you see the word in scripture and it will always work out. Made righteous will not.
Secondly, Paul said it is God that justifieth. It is not man that justifieth, but God. Paul also said that to the man who believeth in Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. God didn't justify the godly, but the ungodly. He calleth those things which be not as though they were. God justified you before you were godly. That word that is translated counted is the greek word logizomai. That word is an accounting term which gives the idea of accounting facts and reality, things that already exist. Paul used that same word in chapter 8 when he said, "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." He's not making something so, but expressing and seeing something which is reality or fact. What Paul is saying is, to the man who trusts in God rather than trying to work his way into righteousness, his faith accounts himself righteous. The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. You were righteous before you placed faith in Christ, your faith is that which sees this fact and applies it to your conscience.
Furthermore, Paul said, "being justified by faith we have peace with God." Didn't say anything about God having peace with us. That's because God doesn't have peace with us through faith. God has peace with us, according to Paul in Colossians, through the blood of His cross. We have peace with God through faith. Being justified by faith is something for us, not God. Paul goes on to say, "by whom (Jesus) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Paul said we have access by faith into the grace we are already standing in.
Finally, and the death knell in this argument, we have Paul at the tail end of Romans 4 speaking of Jesus Christ: "who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." Now the word for is the same in english in greek in both parts of that sentence. It must have the same definition in both cases. Why was Christ delivered? Paul said for our offences. He was delivered because of, on account of our offences. He wasn't delivered to gain our offences, but because of them. Thus, we see what the second half of that verse says. He was raised again because of, on account of our justification. He was raised again because we had been justified. That's because we were justified by the death of Christ. Now His resurrection testifies of that fact. Thus Paul says, "who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
psalms109:31
Active Member
Stand
I just wanted to let u know where I stand on the issue the other I was pondering
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Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
God accounted righteousness to Abraham because of his faith.
How many times did Jesus tell someone "your faith has saved you"?
So, babies are born without sin. At what point of life do they inherit adamic sin? This is called original sin that all humans receive through Adam.
If a person could live a good life unto death, then they too are "saved". There are plenty of scriptures that speak of the sinfulness of all humans, but we must negate them or at best water them down.
Even the reformers created a doctrine to rid the newborn of original sin. They called it covenant theology and infant baptism. So, original sin was not denied, but dealt with. Perhaps we should make child dedication services efficacious.
Cheers,
Jim
If a person could live a good life unto death, then they too are "saved". There are plenty of scriptures that speak of the sinfulness of all humans, but we must negate them or at best water them down.
Even the reformers created a doctrine to rid the newborn of original sin. They called it covenant theology and infant baptism. So, original sin was not denied, but dealt with. Perhaps we should make child dedication services efficacious.
Cheers,
Jim
Man doesn't demand anything, God did. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Sure sounds like an order (xyz) to me. Spiritually dead (guilty, separated from God) people need saving
No dilemma at all.
Bobby Hamilton
New Member
Gotcha.
At this point I'm still enjoying reading a lot of things and keeping comments at a minimum. I've lurked at least long enough to know what is and isn't worth replying to. Good point to bring up.
How many of those times did Jesus mean their faith saved them from hell? The context of those statements has to do with what Jesus just did for them.
What did He do for them? What did He save them from?
If you would have read my post, I addressed that.
This brings up a bigger issue though. What does justify mean? The way you define the word it means to make righteous. Alright, plug that definition into scripture.
Jesus was justified in the Spirit. Does that mean Jesus was made righteous? That definition will not work.
Jesus said wisdom is justified of her children. Is widsom made righteous? Doesn't work here either.
Solomon said that he that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord. Can a man make the wicked righteous, or the righteous wicked? Doesn't work here either.
Funny thing though, the definition "declared righteous" works in all 3 cases I just produced.
Blindness, paralysis, an issue of blood, etc.
When Peter was walking across the water to Jesus, he took his eyes off the Savior and began sinking. He cried out, "Lord, save me!" What did he mean? Was he asking Jesus to save him from eternal hell? Of course not. He wanted Jesus to save him from the current calamity he was in. That's exactly what Jesus did, He saved Peter by reaching out and pulling him up.
Jesus came to seek and save the lost...He was not a health and wealth miracle healer. His miracles were done to save people from themselves and hell. You really limit Christ's ministry by stating it was just to "save" them from physical afflictions.
psalms109:31
Active Member
post
I
I learned so much from hard question that so many are afraid to ask. The only stupid questions are the one's not asked.:BangHead:
I
I learned so much from hard question that so many are afraid to ask. The only stupid questions are the one's not asked.:BangHead:
Jim, & what if a child died before baptism? The reformers were only apeing the RC Pado Baptsm because they too had been Catholic & wanted to return it as a Reformed Catholic service. I dont see how that is relevant unless we are adopting Catholic Baptismal Doctrines.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
John Gill:
Thy faith hath saved thee; or has obtained salvation for thee, a temporal salvation; and it may be also a spiritual and an eternal one: for that is the concern faith has in salvation; it is the means of obtaining and enjoying it: Christ, the object of faith, is the author of it.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
John Gill:
thy faith hath saved thee; meaning either the object of her faith, himself, who was the author of eternal salvation to her; or that she, through faith in him, had received the blessings of salvation, pardon, righteousness, and life from him, and the joys and comfort of it; and had both a right unto, and a meetness for eternal glory and happiness:
go in peace; of conscience, and serenity of mind; let nothing disturb thee; not the remembrance of past sins, which are all forgiven, nor the suggestions of Satan, who may, at one time or another, present them to view; nor the troubles and afflictions of this present life; which are all in love; nor the reproaches and censures of men of a "pharisaic" spirit: go home to thy house, and about thy business, and cheerfully perform thy duty both to God and men; and when thou hast done thy generation work, thou shalt enter into eternal peace and joy.
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