Where do Babies Go When they Die - Continued

[Steadfast Fred]

That is the truth WB. Good grief. How can a pastor have such a goofy interpretation?

The earthquake had passed, everyone was accounted for, so exactly what did the jailer want to be "delivered" from?? Everything was fine at that point.

Unbelievable.

Maybe he thought his boss would think he destroyed the jail? ROFL

 

[Luke2427]

Most people do not come because they are not being taught by the words of the Father which is the the words of Jesus, but by the words of men. The words of Jesus is Spirit and life, but the teaches that are being sent out have the key, but not handing them out. The main reason they themselves have not entered

Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

One day we will become one and there will be amout comming to Jesus like the sands of the seashore.

Why are those people not being taught the words of the father?

Is it because of the circumstance into which they were born? Who decided where they would be born and by whom they would be raised and into what educational environment they would find themselves?

Did not God determine these things?

Now here is the crux.

Why did God place some in an environment where they would be taught the words of the father and come to Christ and place others into an environment where they would not?

It does not matter how you slice it- when you follow it to its logical conclusion it is God that determines who is saved and who is not.

 

[psalms109:31]

our responsibilty

Why are those people not being taught the words of the father?

Is it because of the circumstance into which they were born? Who decided where they would be born and by whom they would be raised and into what educational environment they would find themselves?

Did not God determine these things?

Now here is the crux.

Why did God place some in an environment where they would be taught the words of the father and come to Christ and place others into an environment where they would not?

It does not matter how you slice it- when you follow it to its logical conclusion it is God that determines who is saved and who is not.

God sent us out to reach the world so it on man not God. Man has always blamed God. It is the serpent you created it is the women you made me to today it is you who did not choose me.

 

[Luke2427]

God sent us out to reach the world so it on man not God. Man has always blamed God. It is the serpent you created it is the women you made me to today it is you who did not choose me.

You didn't even address the questions- at all. Can you?

Answer the questions I've posted in the last two posts I've given to you.

 

[psalms109:31]

question

It is God who picks who will be saved and He will save those who trust in His Son the message He sent me out with. I don't question why some do and some don't. It isn't because of God didn't want to save them because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of thuth, but only those who trust in His will be saved according to the word of God.That God made me a messenger of

 

[Luke2427]

It is God who picks who will be saved and He will save those who trust in His Son the message He sent me out with. I don't question why some do and some don't. It isn't because of God didn't want to save them because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of thuth, but only those who trust in His will be saved according to the word of God.That God made me a messenger of

And the only logical explanation for why some believe and others do not is because God grants some faith to believe.

All other explanations will give man something whereof he may boast.

He is wiser than his doomed fellows.

He is less depraved than his damned counterparts.

He may stand before God and say, "You and I, we did a pretty good job getting me here, didn't we. That something good in me got up with that goodness in you and together we saved me. Blessed be our names!"

 

[psalms109:31]

And the only logical explanation for why some believe and others do not is because God grants some faith to believe.

All other explanations will give man something whereof he may boast.

He is wiser than his doomed fellows.

He is less depraved than his damned counterparts.

He may stand before God and say, "You and I, we did a pretty good job getting me here, didn't we. That something good in me got up with that goodness in you and together we saved me. Blessed be our names!"

No one who is meek and humble being taught by the Father will do that according to scripture God will not keep them because they were not His in the first place. They will boast in Jesus and what He has done not in their election over another

 

[Luke2427]

No one who is meek and humble being taught by the Father will do that according to scriptue God will not keep them because they were not His in the first place. They will boast in Jesus and what He has done not in their election over another

But they could because it would be true if you are right. Why else did they get saved and so many millions of their fellow men go to hell?

It's either because they are smarter or less sinful or because God chose them.

It is one or the other and you have yet to provide any other options.

 

[psalms109:31]

But they could because it would be true if you are right. Why else did they get saved and so many millions of their fellow men go to hell?

It's either because they are smarter or less sinful or because God chose them.

It is one or the other and you have yet to provide any other options.

That is an opinion that is against what meek and humble is

 

[Amy.G]

But they could because it would be true if you are right. Why else did they get saved and so many millions of their fellow men go to hell?

It's either because they are smarter or less sinful or because God chose them.

It is one or the other and you have yet to provide any other options.

Here's a question for you. Why did Adam sin? Was he dumb? Crazy? What? There must be a reason right?

Whatever the reason, it's the same reason people reject Christ.

 

[Jim1999]

Adam, created by God as the first human, sinless and free. He was tempted, as was Eve, by the fallen angel known as Satan. No other human was born without original sin, the penalty of both spiritual and physical death.

Now, could you reword your question about why did Adam sin and relate to man to-day ?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Tom Butler]

So, let's return to the OP.

If infants who die go to heaven, on what basis will God accept them?
If some infants who die go to Hell, what is the basis for their condemnation?

Corollary questions:
If repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are required of infants for salvation, how can they exercise either toward someone of whom they have never heard. And how can they exercise either when they don't even know what they are?

How can they be condemned for rejecting Jesus of whom they have never heard? Since adults who've never heard the gospel are not condemned for rejecting it, why should babies be condemned.

How can they be condemned for sinning when they have not sinned?

Does the shedding of Jesus' blood mean anything to the dead infant?

If such shedding of blood covers sin, does it cover/not cover the sinful nature of dead babies?

I know some of these questions have been addressed. But some have not. I just want to get back to the OP.

 

[Luke2427]

Here's a question for you. Why did Adam sin? Was he dumb? Crazy? What? There must be a reason right?

Whatever the reason, it's the same reason people reject Christ.

That's a fair question- but many do not like the answer.

Let me preface by saying that God hates sin. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But some things that are not good are necessary for other things that are very good to take place.

Sin is one of those things. Sin is not good. But it was necessary for some great things to take place. Grace, Mercy, Redemption, Justice, etc...

There can be no grace apart from sin.

There can be no redemption if there is no sin to be redeemed from.

According to Jonathan Edwards God "wills that evil come to pass . . . that good may come of it." What good? And how does the existence of evil serve this good end? Here is Edwards' stunning answer:

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God's glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all. . . .

Thus it is necessary, that God's awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God's glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.

If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God's holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God's grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired. . . .

So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature's happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect.

Why did Adam sin? Because God decreed it. Evil is a necessary evil. It is necessary that we may rejoice throughout the endless ages of eternity in the redemption of Christ, that we may experience forever those glorious things that angels can never know- grace and mercy and adoption and a host of other glorious things that we will enjoy forever. No eternal rejoicing in redemption and grace and mercy could ever exist had Adam never sinned.

Sin was necessary for two glorious purposes- God's highest glory and our highest happiness.

Adam sinned because God designed the universe so that he would.

 

[Luke2427]

So, let's return to the OP.

I admit that it does appear we have left the beaten path and are now chasing rabbits.

But on the other hand, you really can't answer the question about waht happens to babies when they die without understanding the basis by which ANYONE is saved, baby or adult.

If God MUST save men based on their free will choice to repent, then that is very problematic for babies- since they cannot choose anything.

If, however, God does all the saving himself without any help from people- then there is no problem at all for infants. God can and does save them the same way he saves EVERYONE- by himself.

Though this is a rabbit- it is a necessary rabbit.

If infants who die go to heaven, on what basis will God accept them?
If some infants who die go to Hell, what is the basis for their condemnation?

Exactly. And these questions cannot be answered until the above quandaries are settled.

Corollary questions:
If repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are required of infants for salvation, how can they exercise either toward someone of whom they have never heard. And how can they exercise either when they don't even know what they are?

Same.

How can they be condemned for rejecting Jesus of whom they have never heard?

Same.

Since adults who've never heard the gospel are not condemned for rejecting it, why should babies be condemned.

Not true. Surely you don't think that everyone who has never heard the name of Jesus goes to heaven. Evangelism would be the worst thing we could do to the world if that were true.

How can they be condemned for sinning when they have not sinned?

Because they are born in sin. David said in Psalm 53 "in sin did my mother conceive me."

Does the shedding of Jesus' blood mean anything to the dead infant?

It means everything to the infant and all who will ever see heaven.

If such shedding of blood covers sin, does it cover/not cover the sinful nature of dead babies?

I tend to agree with Spurgeon that it does.

I know some of these questions have been addressed. But some have not. I just want to get back to the OP.

Very well.

 

[Luke2427]

That is an opinion that is against what meek and humble is

I think I have proven that God must be the determining factor concerning who goes to heaven.

I think I have proven that there is no such thing as a humble and meek unregenerate sinner.

You have offered no alternatives other than to insist that the unregenerate are humble in their sinful nature. And you insist that without any support from the Word of God. You have quoted several passages, something that I do appreciate, but those passages do not at all declare that the unregenerate man can be humble before God while still in his sinful state.

I have proven from the Word of God that "...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, NEITHER CAN IT BE." Romans 8:7

It cannot be subject to the law of God because it is a NOT humble before God. A lack of humility is the very thing that keeps the carnal mind from being subject unto God. The carnal mind is ALWAYS proud and rebellious and stubborn before God.

Another mind must be given in order for a man to become humble before God. That happens at the point of regeneration.

One MUST BE REGENERATED BEFORE HE CAN BE HUMBLE BEFORE GOD.

That is the clear teaching of Scripture.

Here are some other verses that make this clear:

Genesis 8:21 the intentions of mans heart is evil from his youth.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 the hearts of the children of men are full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it?

Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving NOTHING IS PURE but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Job 15:14-16 What is man that he can be pure or he who is born of a woman that he can be righteous? Behold God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water?

And this should settle the matter for good. The Lord Jesus Christ himself says of natural man

Matthew 7:16-18 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes or thorns of thistles? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the evil tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor CAN a diseased tree bear good fruit.


The Bible is clear. Not Calvinism- the Word of God. Everything that the unregenerate does and thinks is sinful.

Even what we consider to be a noble endeavor, plowing- working industriously to provide for one's own, is sin.

Proverbs 21:4 ... and the plowing of the wicked is sin.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

The words of Jesus can do what it does bring Spirit and life to dying world and it can do what you believe it cannot do. I will continue to preach the words of Jesus. A dead body needs Spirit and life to live and that is the words of Jesus not the word of man. Those who trust in Jesus will not be disappointed and that is a promise from God.

 

[Luke2427]

The words of Jesus can do what it does bring Spirit and life to dying word and it can do what you believe it cannot do. I will continue to preach the words of Jesus. A dead body needs Spirit and life to live and that is the words of Jesus not the word of man. Those who trust in Jesus will not be disappointed and that is a promise from God.

Exactly. That is what I am saying, psalms. The words of Jesus DO give life. That's regeneration.

But what you have been saying is wrong. You ahve been saying that the sinner can be humble in and of himself and then Jesus will save him because he is a humble.

Jesus must give spiritual life via his Word, BEFORE a man is humble. Why? Because the carnal mind is at enmity against God; it is not subject unto the law of God, neither can it be.

So who goes to heaven, psalms?

Why?

Please do not say- the humble. There are no humble sinners. Humility is the opposite of rebellion and the carnal mind is in constant rebellion against God.

So who goes to heaven? Those who Christ regenerates by his word.

Now onto the bigger question. Why does Christ's word regenerate some and not others?

Because salvation is of the Lord. If it is up to man to humble himself in his spiritually dead state then EVERY MAN GOES TO HELL because man CANNOT BE SUBJECT to God in his carnal state.

God must make him humble. God must make him willing. Man will not do this himself. God must do it in him.

Tell me you see this.

 

[psalms109:31]

Word

When we reject the words we reject Spirit and life. Through the words of Jesus we are given faith. Faith that comes from God. Faith that comes from God and my belief are totally different. God says we have to believe in faith that God is given us to be saved. Some may not come the first time but the seed is planted. The more they hear about being humble and trusting in Jesus from diffent people. The more the ground is being tilled and water and the seeds sinks deeper in. The more they see our good deeds so they will praise our Father in heaven

The harvast is plenty but the worker are so few, so let us pray to the Lord of the havest to send out more workers. The ground out there is hard it will take a lot of work just to prepare the ground.

 

[Luke2427]

When we reject the words we reject Spirit and life. Through he words of Jesus we are given faith. Faith that comes from God. Faith that comes from God and my belief are totally different. God says we have to believe in faith that God is given us to be saved. Some may not come the first time but the seed is planted. The more they hear about being humble and trusting in Jesus from diffent people. The more the ground is being tilled and water and the seeds sinks deeper in. The more they see our good deeds so they will praise our Father in heaven

The harvast is plenty but the worker are so few, so let us pray to the Lord of the havest to send out more workers. The ground out there is hard it will take a lot of work just to prepare the ground.

Psalms, this thread is not about evangelism and the great commission. We go because God told us to go as far as that is concerned. This thread is about how babies are saved which demands we talk about how all are saved.

The question is at this point in the discussion: Are people saved because they choose Christ or are they saved because Christ chooses them? The question you and I have been discussing is- Can the unregenerate humble himself? You say no. You are right. God must humble him.

Why then are some humbled and others not humbled?

You will not say that God saves who he wills but this is the obvious answer to this question.

Salvation is all of God and none of man. That man believes is only proof that God has saved him. Because if it is up to the unregenerate man to come to God in his lost state- then ALL OF US ARE GOING TO HELL.

DO YOU AGREE?

 

[psalms109:31]

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and also He wants to gather them but they are not willing. We know that God is not going to save all but those who believe.It is God going after us and we are His messenger. I will have to disagree with your acessment it doesn't agree with a scripture. We know that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. So according to scripture it is God that is making one humble and meek, because God has provided a way for all men to come throught Jesus and His word. So Trust and believe in Him and don't let any word from man stray or hinder you from that.