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I don't think God considers good works iniquity. Sin is iniquity.He might say to God at the judgment- "But Lord, Lord have not we cast out devils and prophecied in your name and do many wonderful WORKS?"
But God will say to them- "Depart from me you WORKERS of iniquity. I never knew you."
What they, and many of us, considered wonderful works- God considers iniquity.
If you are referring to the Proverb, you made the act of plowing the sin and not the heart condition behind the plower.
The Scripture is teaching that the ploing is sin BECAUSE the motive is impure. Plowing is never in and of itself sin. But to the pure all things are pure; to the defiled and unbelieving, NOTHING IS PURE... Titus 1:15
If it is not pure it is impure. Everything that the unregenerate does is impure. This is a consistent teaching throughout Scripture. It is impure because their minds and consciences are defiled.
I have given over the course of this discussion in the previous two threads and this one a host of Scriptures that prove this. Jesus said that a corrupt tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit...
It is IMPOSSIBLE according to Christ. Every deed, every work that corrupt trees bring forth is bad. It is plainly godless and idolatrous.
True, putting one's family above God is sin...but...God also has instilled in into the heart of man His moral law of right and wrong (conscience) and requires us to care for our families regardless of our heart.
God requires thousands of things of unregenerate man that he cannot do. He cannot love the Lord his God with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength. God tells him to anyway. He cannot keep any of the ten commandments- God tells him to anyway.
And he cannot provide for his family the most important things- those things of God.
And when he spends his money on his family- money of which he does not invest a dine into the Kingdom and glory of God- then his provision for his family is idolatry. Plus he is teaching them to be idolaters by his wicked, godless example.
To the corrupt and defiled is NOTHING pure. A corrupt tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit. The plowing of the wicked is sin. There is none that doeth good- NO NOT ONE.
Keeping God's law is always good regardless of the intent behind keeping it. Besides, if the plowing is reprehensible, is not the plower decreed to be reprehensible by God?
Yes, keeping God's law is good. But as we have seen from Scripture, the unregenerate man cannot do it. The law of God has as its motive the glory of God. When not kept for that purpose the attempt to keep it is wickedness.
I don't understand the question above.
I'm sorry, but in the zeal for supreme sovereignty this view strips Christ of any. If man has to be made alive IN ORDER to respond to Christ, Christ is powerless over death! I hear many reformed say the Holy Spirit had to resurrect Christ as well as Lazarus. Bologna! Christ is the Way the Truth and THE LIFE. There is no order of power in the Trinity.
This is a problem of definitions. How do you define death? If you define death properly then you cannot have death doing anything but laying there being dead.
Now if you define death another way, you can have death doing whatever you want it to do. Just change the definition to suit you.
But death is defined as the end of life. Life is vivacity, sprightliness, vigor, verve, activity, energy.
Something cannot have life, vigor and energy and be dead at the same time.
Everything is what it is. To be something else it must... well... be something else.
Death is the absence of life. In order for death to do anything it must cease being death and become life.
Sovereignty does mean that God can do ANYTHING. God cannot sin, for example. Neither can God make hard soft without transformation. Hard is hard until it is soft. In order for God to make hard less than hard he must transform it into soft.
Just so dead is dead. In order for death to do anything it must be something less than death. It must cease being death in order to do anything that death cannot do.
God must transform death into life because death cannot have energy, vitality by definition. Once it does- it ceases being death.
Here is where it falls apart and made me turn from this doctrine...the inconsistency. God softened John's heart (apart from John letting him) but God could not soften Jack's heart because Jack wouldn't "let him"?!? I thought Jack was a corpse and "it's all God"? How did Jack wield this power over God making Him powerless to do to him what He did to John?
How can God control Jack's physical birth, but Jack controlled his spiritual one by not allowing God to do to him what He did to John?
I wasn't clear here- I apologize. The way to look at this exchange I posited is me asking the questions and someone else giving the answers. I don't believe the answers given. But I am using them to point out that no matter how you slice it, when you keep asking why you will eventually come to God and his Sovereign purpose EVERY TIME.
I think the answer to this scenario is clear. Jack remains in his sins because God leaves him there. John does not because God does not leave him there.
I agree God controls who is saved and regenerated, btw. He has decreed believers will be. He is in control (sovereign) over the whole salvation process without being controlling, which is not necessary to be sovereign.
I agree with this. But the question is- WHY DO SOME BELIEVE AND OTHERS DO NOT BELIEVE?
Why do some have faith and others do not?
Answer this question- ARE SOME LESS DEPRAVED? IF SO WHY?
By the way, I do not think some are less depraved. But I am trying to figure out how you can account for some believing and others not believing.
Calvinists can account for this very easily. They do not leave this up to man but up to God.
I don't think God considers good works iniquity. Sin is iniquity.
The reason God will say depart from Me is because these people thought their good works would earn them heaven. Their works were good, but they never received Christ as Savior, therefore Jesus does not "know" them.
n high look, and a proud heart,.... The former is a sign of the latter, and commonly go together, and are both abominable to the Lord; see Psalm 101:5. A man that looks above others, and with disdain upon them, shows that pride reigns in him, and swells his mind with a vain opinion of himself; this may be observed in every self-righteous man; the parable of the Pharisee and publican is a comment upon it; sometimes there may be a proud heart under a disguise of humility; but the pride of the heart is often discovered by the look of the eyes. It may be rendered, "the elevation of the eyes, and the enlargement of the heart" (p); but not to be understood in a good sense, of the lifting up of the eyes in prayer to God, with faith and fear; nor of the enlargement of the heart with solid knowledge and wisdom, such as Solomon had; but in a bad sense, of the lofty looks and haughtiness of man towards his fellow creatures, and of his unbounded desires after filthy lucre or sinful lusts: the Targum renders it,I know that unregenerate man can do what we tend to consider good things. A lost mother can love and care for her child. A lost father and husband can work hard and provide a good living for his family. These are things we consider to be "good".
But are they really?
Proverbs tells us that the plowing of the wicked is sin. Plowing? What could possibly be evil about plowing a field to provide for one's own? The fact that the man who is doing it is evil to his core- and even plowing that field is done with the vilest of motives.
He will take that produce that God causes to come up from the ground and he will devote it to his own purposes. He will rob God refusing to give God any of what God has blessed him with. Not a dime of that money will be used to get the Gospel of Christ to the ends of the earth. This man will take what God has invested in him and use it for his own desires with no concern whatsoever to the will of his Maker. He counts his own desires supreme to that of God who gave him the field and the plow and the produce and the strength to work. This is GREAT WICKEDNESS.
He puts his family above his Creator- and why? Because they are his. He thinks the things that are his are more worthy of devotion than God. This makes him a blasphemous idolator.
Every drop of sweat he releases into the dirt of the field he plows is reprehensible.
And what he does is not good for his family, either. If he loved his family he would teach them to love God by devoting his firstfruits to God. But he teaches them NOT to love God. He teaches them to love their own instead of God. He plows his way down into hell with his children chained to the plow dragging them behind him.
The plowing of the wicked is sin.
But he said of their works that they cited to Him: prohecying, casting out devils, many wonderful WORKS- "ye WORKERS of iniquity".
He considered what we and they consider to be good works- iniquity.
In this same text Jesus says- "An evil tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit."
Fruit is obviously deeds in this context. So a bad tree cannot bring forth good deeds- period.
It seems to me that that settles it.
What am I missing?
So if an unbeliever takes care of his child, God considers it iniquity? Where in the Law do you find this? There is no commandment against loving your child.
I've known many unbelievers in my lifetime that were wonderful parents and did many good things. Their works were good, but they were filled with iniquity because they had not been covered in the blood of Christ.
The fruit Christ speaks of is the fruit of the Spirit. Even evil people can do good works, but they do not have the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of salvation. Good works are not.
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... from to plough; it only denotes that all the civil actions of a wicked man, one being put for all, are attended with sin; he sins in all he does. Or, metaphorically, for his schemes, contrivances, and projects, which are the ploughing of his mind; these are all sinful, or tend to that which is so.
Very good. Who is this?
This is the proper position concerning unregenerate man- all they do is evil- even those things that some consider neutral or even good- EVERYTHING THEY DO IS EVIL.
So if an unbeliever takes care of his child, God considers it iniquity? Where in the Law do you find this? There is no commandment against loving your child.
I've known many unbelievers in my lifetime that were wonderful parents and did many good things. Their works were good, but they were filled with iniquity because they had not been covered in the blood of Christ.
The fruit Christ speaks of is the fruit of the Spirit. Even evil people can do good works, but they do not have the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of salvation. Good works are not.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Very good. Who is this?
This is the proper position concerning unregenerate man- all they do is evil- even those things that some consider neutral or even good- EVERYTHING THEY DO IS EVIL.
You applaud this statement by Amy, which could be rightly applauded for its thoughtfulness, but you contradict it by your quoting of Gill's.
I don't understand. Where do you fall on this issue.
Were you only applauding her thoughtfulness, as is perfectly understandable, or her actual conclusions.
Gills obviously falls where I fall on the issue according to the quote from Gills you provided.
You applaud this statement by Amy, which could be rightly applauded for its thoughtfulness, but you contradict it by your quoting of Gill's.
I don't understand. Where do you fall on this issue.
Were you only applauding her thoughtfulness, as is perfectly understandable, or her actual conclusions.
Gills obviously falls where I fall on the issue according to the quote from Gills you provided.
I do believe unregenerate man can do some good things with genuinely good motives. That said, I think even unregenerate man is influenced by the word of God.
But this is not what the Bible says, is it. The carnal mind is enmity with God and is NOT subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN it be. That's what Paul said in Romans 8.
The carnal mind CANNOT obey the Word of God. He can do nothing, every hour of the day, but rebel against the Word of God.
Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Jesus said sinners (the unregenerate) love, and he says they do good things. Jesus knows the definition of the word good, and in Luke 6:32-33 he said sinners love, and they do good. And notice he compares the love and good things the unregenerate do directly with the love and good things the regenerate do and says they are "the same". Their love and good deeds are just as good as ours, there is no difference.
The point Christ is making seems clear to me. It is that even evil men love their own. How much more does God love his own?!
But their love is selfish, godless love. It is little more than animal love- natural affection- the same that a bear has for her whelps. To the pure all things are pure but to the corrupt and defiled NOTHING IS PURE according to Titus 1:15
So their love CANNOT be pure. It is therefore CORRUPT. It CANNOT, therefore, be "good".
Furthermore, Romans 3 tells us that there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD.
That settles it, does it not?
An unregenerate mother sincerely loves her children, and will run into a burning building to save them. She does this with no concern to herself except to save her children. This is true love, and this is good.
Proverbs tells us that the sacrifice of the wicked is abomination. God is on another plain of holiness from us. What we consider good that sinners do God considers abominable.
They are HER children. This is still selfish. Hens do the same thing. It is their nature. So do rats. It is natural affection- not moral goodness.
She does not care if they burn in hell forever seeing as how she will not love God before them- her motive in saving them is selfish and godless. Nothing can be godless and good at the same time. God is good- he is the source of goodness. If something is done totally apart from any love for God then it cannot be good.
This is why Paul said, "There is NONE that doeth good."
It is also why Paul said, "If I give my body to be burned and have not charity then I am nothing."
Charity MUST be understood in the light of the First and Great Commandment and its subsequent commandment. To first of all love God with everything that makes up who you are, and secondly, and only secondly, to love your neighbor as yourself.
Though you give your body to be burned and have not this love you are nothing. God will reject the ashes.
What you and I count goodness and how Holy God counts it are two extraordinarily different things as I have shown above.An unregenerate soldier will jump on top of a hand grenade to save his buddies in the foxhole. He does not do this for brownie points, he does this to save his friends. Again, this is true love and is very good.
When the scriptures say that no one does good, it is speaking of 100% righteousness. And this is true, no man (including saved persons) does 100% right 100% of the time. Saved persons are only righteous because Jesus's righteousness has been imputed to them, not because they are truly righteous in themselves.
That's not what it says at all. The wording and the context does not even yield itself to that interpretation.
Add to that the numerous scriptures that prove that man is thoroughly wicked and CANNOT do good, to whom ALL THINGS are impure, who even his plowing is wicked and his sacrifice is abomination, who without charity giving his body to be burned is nothing, and a host of other clear Bible truths- and the tenure of Scripture does not at all allow for the above interpretation you posit.
But unregenerate persons do many good things. They will give to the poor and needy out of a pure concern to help them.
Their motive cannot be pure according to Scripture. If their motive is impure then their deed is not good.
It is not the good things that men do that are the problem, sin is our problem. Even if you do good most of the time, when you do wrong you must pay the penalty, and the penalty for even one sin is death, that is to be separated from God.
This is not what Scripture teaches, is it? It doesn't teach that man does good things apart from God at all. It teaches that everything he does is sin before God.
To be clear, if I can Luke. I do think people outside of the household of faith can do "good" things but not "righteous" things. Certainly our God can see the "good" that even the unbelievers do, but it is to no avail. Heck, doing the righteous thing is difficult at best, even for the believer.
Yes, but this is not what the Bible teaches, is it?
We may find this idea palatable. We may even cling to this idea because we know if it is not so then our whole theological system fails. But the Bible teaches that everything that men do without God is sin, iniquity, impure, as filthy rags, and abominable.
See the Scriptures I've provided throughout this thread.
Luke, you cannot take hyperbole (obvious exaggeration) as doctrine.
Calvinists love to quote Psalms 58 to prove total depravity.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
These verses are obvious exaggeration. No one can speak, whether it be truth or lies the day they are born.
But if you accept this as literal, then you need to accept the following verses as well.
Are children poisonous like a snake? Boy, that sure would make breast feeding dangerous don't you think?
Do they have teeth like lions?
I have eight children, and none of them could speak a word the day they were born. They were not poisonous like snakes, and none of them had any teeth, much less lion's teeth.
But this is what Calvinism does, it takes obvious hyperbole and teaches it as being literal to support false doctrine.
God does not lock the doors of heaven to the unregenerate. They have no desire to go. They hate the place and what it stands for and who rules it.
These verses you quote really prove that, in my opinion.
a. The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong
f you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Matthew 7:11