What can unregenerate man do?

[Luke2427]

Luke, what you said here is correct, but this is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches that the door to heaven is locked to them. They cannot under any circumstance enter unless God unlocks the door by regenerating them.

You are wrong. What I said IS what Calvinism teaches. This is why you oppose Calvinism I imagine. The same reason most who oppose it do. You don't REALLY know what it teaches. You can take from someone who was an Arminian for a decade and has been a Calvinist for years.

Show me one reputable Calvinist who teaches that sinners want to serve God but that God will not let them.

You are correct that natural man does not have a desire for the things of God. But God does not leave man in this state. God comes to all men showing his love through his Son Jesus and offering his free grace. God wins unregenerate man to himself through his love. Unregenerate men can respond to this love and grace if he so chooses to do so.

God has to regenerate them before he can do anything with them. Dead man can do nothing by the very definition of "dead". Before he can do anything he must be transformed into something other than dead.

Never has natural man been without the grace of God. Starting in the garden of Eden when God promised Adam and Eve he would send a Savior through the seed of the woman, God has been calling men and offering his free love and grace. Some men respond positively like Abel, some men refuse like wicked Cain. But Cain could have done well and would have been accepted.

OK. John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why?

Every man has a conscience. This alone proves Total Depravity false. Conscience by definition says that man knows between good and evil and feels a pull to do good. Look it up in the dictionary.

No, it does not disprove real Total Depravity at all. Conscious means "with knowledge". It means that men do evil even though the KNOW it is evil. That they have conscience goes further to prove the total depravity of man. Knowing it is evil they do it anyway.

 

[Amy.G]

You applaud this statement by Amy, ........

Am I not worth applauding? :laugh: :tongue3: :love2:

 

[Luke2427]

Sorry Luke, I dont quite see it that way. I dont think "plowing" is evil, but rather the hearts and attitude of the people are evil. Originally, correct me if I am wrong, you stated that "plowing" itself was evil. BTW, I am decidedly a non-reformer.

The plowing is evil only because of the one who does it. This has been my position.

Gills who you quoted said exactly what I purported on the matter. If you disagree with Gills, why quote him?

 

[Luke2427]

Am I not worth applauding? :laugh: :tongue3: :love2:

Read my whole post, Sis. I said that indeed you were very much worth applauding.:applause:

 

[Amy.G]

OK. John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why?

I like what Franklin Graham says.

"You can stand there with your hands in your pockets and refuse the gift of God or you can take your hands out of your pockets and reach out and receive the gift Christ offers".

Why do some refuse? The bible says because they have exchanged the truth of God for a lie. They are too prideful. This is the sad part of free will. But without it, we could not freely love God. We would just be programed to love Him.

 

[zrs6v4]

I think there were some good points made after I read through this

I think God's common goodness to all helps lost people to do certain good things that have been mentioned, namely love their own. Some even die for strangers (like fireman for example) but it is impossible to judge their motives.

I don't think all people are as bad as they can be, but even while an unregenerate person is doing good, is he not sinning also? That probably even applies to believers as well. Either way it is impossible to deny that an unregenerate man can and does do good things. Because they do good things does this tell us that their heart is 100% wicked or maybe has a little good mixed in with the bad?

Can an unregenerate man glorify God by dieing for a complete stranger? Where does that action come from? what possible motives could this brave man have? Is God pleased with that particular work he did?

 

[Amy.G]

Read my whole post, Sis. I said that indeed you were very much worth applauding.:applause:

I was just messin' with ya, but thanks for the compliment.

 

[Luke2427]

I like what Franklin Graham says.

"You can stand there with your hands in your pockets and refuse the gift of God or you can take your hands out of your pockets and reach out and receive the gift Christ offers".

Why do some refuse? The bible says because they have exchanged the truth of God for a lie. They are too prideful. This is the sad part of free will. But without it, we could not freely love God. We would just be programed to love Him.

I think you are right. One refuses because he has exchanged the truth of God for a lie.

OK. Now. Why does Jack exchange the truth of God for a lie and John receives the truth of God?

This is important.

 

[Luke2427]

I think there were some good points made after I read through this

I think God's common goodness to all helps lost people to do certain good things that have been mentioned, namely love their own. Some even die for strangers (like fireman for example) but it is impossible to judge their motives.

I don't think all people are as bad as they can be, but even while an unregenerate person is doing good, is he not sinning also? That probably even applies to believers as well. Either way it is impossible to deny that an unregenerate man can and does do good things. Because they do good things does this tell us that their heart is 100% wicked or maybe has a little good mixed in with the bad?

Can an unregenerate man glorify God by dieing for a complete stranger? Where does that action come from? what possible motives could this brave man have? Is God pleased with that particular work he did?

Yea, this is good input. Every sinner is not as evil as he can be. Every sinner could be Hitler. Every sinner would be as evil as Hitler given the right opportunities.

If not, why did Hitler do what he did? Was he more depraved than the rest of us?

But that unregenerate man does good is not true. God defines what good is and good is that which glorifies God. The motive must be to glorify and please God or the deed CANNOT be good. The deed is idolatrous.

To the corrupt and defiled NOTHING IS PURE.

 

[Winman]

I think I have dealt with that rather thoroughly. The gifts are good. The giving itself is evil- because to the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING IS PURE.

Cake is good, but if I bake it and give it to you with impure motives, the gift is good- the giving is evil because it comes from heart driven by ulterior, corrupt motives.

Now, I've given to you several passages that ACTUALLY teach what I am saying. Why not deal with them?

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Luke, the scriptures do not teach that a man is born corrupt, they teach that a man goes astray (like a sheep running away from the flock) and becomes defiled and corrupt.

And notice it says their conscience is defiled. As I wrote before, conscience by definition means all men know right from wrong and have an internal desire to do that which is good.

But you can defile your conscience, you can sear it. Every time you do wrong your conscience becomes weaker. The more you practice evil, the less your conscience bothers you. This does not negate the fact that all men start out with a conscience, they do.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Calvinists love this verse, but misinterpret it. How can you go astray from the flock if you were never in the flock? You can't.

Men are not created evil, we are created in the image of God. Even after Adam and Eve sinned the scriptures say several times that we are created in the image of God.

James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

This is New Testament, and James says men are made after the similitude (likeness) of God.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

God creates all men upright, but men choose to corrupt themselves, they choose to run away from the flock and go astray.

The very word "corrupt" means for something to go from a state of goodness to bad.

Corrupt (verb) from the dictionary

1. To destroy or subvert the honesty or integrity of.
2. To ruin morally; pervert.
3. To taint; contaminate.
4. To cause to become rotten; spoil.
5. To change the original form of (a text, for example).

You can't ruin or corrupt something that is already evil from the beginning. To corrupt something means to ruin it, to contaminate it, to spoil it from it's original state.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

God doesn't make men corrupt, he makes them upright, but men corrupt themselves. They go from a good state to an evil state of their own free will.

 

[Luke2427]

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Luke, the scriptures do not teach that a man is born corrupt, they teach that a man goes astray (like a sheep running away from the flock) and becomes defiled and corrupt.

This is another subject. It does not matter how EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET BECAME TOTALLY DEPRAVED at this point in the debate. What matters at this point is that he is or isn't.

The verse clearly says he is. He is corrupt and defiled and therefore to him NOTHING IS PURE.

You did not even address the verse. You quoted it and started chasing a rabbit.

And notice it says their conscience is defiled. As I wrote before, conscience by definition means all men know right from wrong and have an internal desire to do that which is good.

I've addressed this. Conscience just proves the utter depravity of man. He KNOWS it is evil and continues in it every hour. HOW MEASURELESS IS THE DEPRAVITY OF MAN!

I have proven from the Word of God that "...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, NEITHER CAN IT BE." Romans 8:7


One MUST BE REGENERATED BEFORE HE CAN DO ANYTHING GOOD.
That is the clear teaching of Scripture.

Here are some other verses that make this clear:

Genesis 8:21 the intentions of mans heart is evil from his youth.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 the hearts of the children of men are full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it?

Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving NOTHING IS PURE but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Job 15:14-16 What is man that he can be pure or he who is born of a woman that he can be righteous? Behold God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water?

And this should settle the matter for good. The Lord Jesus Christ himself says of natural man

Matthew 7:16-18 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes or thorns of thistles? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the evil tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor CAN a diseased tree bear good fruit.


The Bible is clear. Not Calvinism- the Word of God. Everything that the unregenerate does and thinks is sinful.

Even what we consider to be a noble endeavor, plowing- working industriously to provide for one's own, is sin.

Proverbs 21:4 ... and the plowing of the wicked is sin.

 

[Winman]

Luke

I have to go in a minute, but I absolute disagree with you, it is of critical importance to know that man are not born evil. God makes men upright, but of their own free will they choose to corrupt themselves. This refutes the false doctrine of Total Depravity as Calvinists understand it.

You can't "go astray" from the flock unless you were in the flock originally.

You cannot corrupt something that was already evil. To corrupt something by definition means to contaminate or spoil something that was good.

You cannot understand because you have your Calvinist blinders on.

I'll get back tomorrow if possible.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke

I have to go in a minute, but I absolute disagree with you, it is of critical importance to know that man are not born evil. God makes men upright, but of their own free will they choose to corrupt themselves.

If this is true, why on God's earth would you Arminians love free will so much?? It has never done you anything but harm.

It, of course, is not true. Man comes forth from the womb speaking lies and in sin did my mother conceive me and a host of other Scriptures.

Plus- what really was the point of the virgin birth of Christ if humans are not born with a sin nature?


The fact of the matter is that all men are depraved. It is striking that not a single one in history has escaped depravity though you purport that man could.

Regardless this thread presupposes depravity. The question is not how they became depraved, but what can they now do that they are depraved.

This is a strange doctrine you are bringing to bear and I wish you would start another thread to deal with this. It is off topic.

Start a new thread if you want to talk about humans born without a sin nature.

You are still avoiding the abundance of Scripture I have brought to bear.

Deal with that rather than sidetracking the thread, please.

 

[Amy.G]

We have been redeemed by Christ. How can Christ redeem us if we never belonged to Him? To redeem means to buy back. An infant belongs to the Lord, but when he sins deliberately, he is separated from God and must be redeemed. Only God knows at what point in a person's life this happens. (age of accountability)

 

[jbh28]

Luke

I have to go in a minute, but I absolute disagree with you, it is of critical importance to know that man are not born evil. God makes men upright, but of their own free will they choose to corrupt themselves. This refutes the false doctrine of Total Depravity as Calvinists understand it.

Men are created good? You are confusing Adam and the rest of mankind. Mankind is born in sin. They have a sin nature they inherited from their parents. Man is born corrupt. If man is born good with no sin nature, then how does he become corrupt? How does his nature change. You make choices based on your nature.

You can't "go astray" from the flock unless you were in the flock originally.

You cannot corrupt something that was already evil. To corrupt something by definition means to contaminate or spoil something that was good.

Total depravity doesn't teach that you are as evil as you can be. Total depravity has to do with your nature. Going astray has to do with your actions. This is why regeneration is so important. While man can do "good" things before he is regenerate, he doesn't do anything good in the eyes of God. He doesn't do anything as an act of worship. Not because God doesn't let him, but because he chooses not too. His nature is evil. He is born that way. Again, that doesn't mean he is as evil as he can be.

You cannot understand because you have your Calvinist blinders on.

Why don't we just stick with Scripture instead of childish comments. I could say you cannot understand because you have your anti-calvinist blinders on.

I'll get back tomorrow if possible.

 

[Luke2427]

We have been redeemed by Christ. How can Christ redeem us if we never belonged to Him? To redeem means to buy back. An infant belongs to the Lord, but when he sins deliberately, he is separated from God and must be redeemed. Only God knows at what point in a person's life this happens. (age of accountability)

John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why?

You say, "Because John trusted Christ."

I agree. Then I ask, "Why did John trust Christ and Jack not trust Christ?"

You respond, "Because John's heart was softer."

How am I doing so far?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Incredible....even with proof of scripture staring him in the face he rejects.

 

[Luke2427]

Men are created good? You are confusing Adam and the rest of mankind. Mankind is born in sin. They have a sin nature they inherited from their parents. Man is born corrupt. If man is born good with no sin nature, then how does he become corrupt? How does his nature change. You make choices based on your nature.


Total depravity doesn't teach that you are as evil as you can be. Total depravity has to do with your nature. Going astray has to do with your actions.
Why don't we just stick with Scripture instead of childish comments. I could say you cannot understand because you have your anti-calvinist blinders on.

Yea, this stuff is for another thread. Winman should start one that says, "Is man born with a sin nature."

But that has nothing to do with, "What can unregenerate man do?"

Whether he was alive and died or he was born dead, the point of the thread is that he is dead. Now what can he do?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because John was given the irrestable grace & Jack wasnt :thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why?

You say, "Because John trusted Christ."

I agree. Then I ask, "Why did John trust Christ and Jack not trust Christ?"

You respond, "Because John's heart was softer."

How am I doing so far?

Uh...you're not doing very well because I didn't say any of that. :laugh:

I said Jack exchanged the truth of God for a lie. He was full of pride. He thought he could "good work" himself to heaven.