What can unregenerate man do?

[Amy.G]

Hello Amy

Hi Allan! :wavey:

Glad you're here. You're way better at this than I am. You are the resident Calvin refuter. (But always nice about it).

 

[Amy.G]

double post

 

[Amy.G]

This is really a pretty simple question.

Yes. God gives us a choice. Believe and be saved, believe not and be condemned.

Don't worry about the names, Amy. John is anybody who does get saved. Jack is anybody who does not.

But I like the names.

There really are only a couple of answers.

No. There is one answer. God reveals Himself through creation, His word, the witness of the Holy Spirit and the gospel. When a person continually rejects God's drawing, his heart becomes hardened eventually resulting in a seared conscience making judgment inevitable. The hardest people to lead to Christ are those who are elderly and have rejected God all of their lives.

Or God chose John by His grace.

The problem with this view is that you have God choosing people apart from faith in Christ (before they have placed their faith in Him). The chosen (regarding salvation) are those who have placed their faith in Christ. God made the decision to save whosoever believes in Christ before the foundation of the world. Those are the elect.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes. God gives us a choice. Believe and be saved, believe not and be condemned.


But I like the names.


No. There is one answer. God reveals Himself through creation, His word, the witness of the Holy Spirit and the gospel. When a person continually rejects God's drawing, his heart becomes hardened eventually resulting in a seared conscience making judgment inevitable. The hardest people to lead to Christ are those who are elderly and have rejected God all of their lives.




The problem with this view is that you have God choosing people apart from faith in Christ (before they have placed their faith in Him). The chosen (regarding salvation) are those who have placed their faith in Christ. God made the decision to save whosoever believes in Christ before the foundation of the world. Those are the elect.

No, Sis. Faith does not come before God's choice. We were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. Before faith had a mind and heart to dwell in. Before that mind and heart had a body which housed it. Before that body had an earth to dwell upon. Before that earth had a cosmos to exist in. Before time, space and matter- God chose. God chose a long time before man had faith.

But you are avoiding the question. Why do some choose to believe and others choose not to.

We know the answer to why men choose not to. They WILL NOT come to the light because their deeds are evil.

So the real question is, "Why does John come?"

The answer is because Christ made him alive and enabled him to choose, since he would never have chosen, according to the Bible, in his lost, spiritually dead state.

Everyone is born equally depraved. All are aliens away from the commonwealth of Israel. But God grafted in his elect.

This is Bible.

 

[zrs6v4]

Allan, long time no see . Hope all is well. I was reading your reply on Luke2427 and wanted to jump in if you don't mind.

However no non-cal disagrees that no man will know or come to God unless God call to him.. we just disagree that scripture implies there is any such thing as a effectual calling for some and a false calling to others. When God calls.. He calls.. the same way to all men to whom He sends it. We differ in mechanics on how it operates, true, but not in what it is sent out to accomplish.

The call is the same to all.. but it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power. Opening their eyes.. to either receive truth.. or trade it for a lie.

My view of the call is that there is 2 callings seen in Scripture.

1. The calling from men who are saved to the unbelievers
2. The calling of God which is effectual. Usually united with the 1st call from men.

In order for one to get saved they not only need to hear the Gospel from men, but need to be called by God in heaven "INTERNALLY". There is a sense in which when we preach to the non-elect that they are being called by God genuinely through His Word. Yet, this must be met with the work of the Spirit in bringing about the Father's chosen person. If it isn't, the call is still genuine, but it is not effective because the person is left alone in their sin when they hear. They need to be given the gift of understanding when they hear. A spiritually dead person will not understand it in a way that will cause him to see Christ and be broken unto repentance and faith.

The call is the same to all.. but it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power. Opening their eyes.. to either receive truth.. or trade it for a lie.

Im curious if you could explain your view when you say, "it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power."

As for the 2 Corinthians 5:17 verse I would like to clarify your view. You hold that regeneration includes the removal of sin and because it does, faith must precede regeneration as the removal of sins is by justification which comes after faith (haha, tongue twister)? You then put regeneration, justification, and adoption after faith? I think thats what you told me last year when we had this discussion.

Is it possible that 2 Corinthians 5:17 is not intended to show logical order? if not then why not? Couldn't Paul simply be saying that if you are in Christ that you are a new creation and you have your sins taken away.

It is true that the point of regeneration is to literally resurrect a spiritually dead person to life so they may see and believe in Christ for a result of justification and restoration to God for good works.

 

[Luke2427]

Allan, long time no see . Hope all is well. I was reading your reply on Luke2427 and wanted to jump in if you don't mind.




My view of the call is that there is 2 callings seen in Scripture.

1. The calling from men who are saved to the unbelievers
2. The calling of God which is effectual. Usually united with the 1st call from men.

In order for one to get saved they not only need to hear the Gospel from men, but need to be called by God in heaven "INTERNALLY". There is a sense in which when we preach to the non-elect that they are being called by God genuinely through His Word. Yet, this must be met with the work of the Spirit in bringing about the Father's chosen person. If it isn't, the call is still genuine, but it is not effective because the person is left alone in their sin when they hear. They need to be given the gift of understanding when they hear. A spiritually dead person will not understand it in a way that will cause him to see Christ and be broken unto repentance and faith.




Im curious if you could explain your view when you say, "it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power."

As for the 2 Corinthians 5:17 verse I would like to clarify your view. You hold that regeneration includes the removal of sin and because it does, faith must precede regeneration as the removal of sins is by justification which comes after faith (haha, tongue twister)? You then put regeneration, justification, and adoption after faith? I think thats what you told me last year when we had this discussion.

Is it possible that 2 Corinthians 5:17 is not intended to show logical order? if not then why not? Couldn't Paul simply be saying that if you are in Christ that you are a new creation and you have your sins taken away.

It is true that the point of regeneration is to literally resurrect a spiritually dead person to life so they may see and believe in Christ for a result of justification and restoration to God for good works.

Very good post. But what I actually want to respond to, just to mix it up a bit, is your humorous signature.

Therein you are commanding men to do what they cannot do.

This is the old Arminian argument for the "choose" passages. They say, "God is wasting his breath by telling them to do something they cannot do if what you Calvinists say is true."

Of course this is not the case as is humorously illustrated by your signature. You tell us to do what we cannot do to make a point- a humorous point.

Just so, God tells us to do what we cannot do to make a point- but in this case- a serious one.

The point- we are morally bankrupt without Christ.

We must be made alive before we can come to Christ

Choose God and righteousness you dead sinner!

But I can't!

Now you are learning.

 

[Luke2427]

My dear sir.. no it doesn't.
Regeneration, according to the reformed view is to make one alive.. and if one is alive, according to scripture, they are in Christ. And if IN Christ, they can not be in darkness for in God there is NO darkness.

Unless you have a new definition of regeneration?


According to scripture.. the only two places where regeneration is described neither yield themselves to your view.
In the most simplest passage of scripture that describes regeneration in the context it is used both times in scripture can be seen in 2 Cor 5:17.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

IN CHRIST.. you are a new creation.. Old things are passed away (meaning are no more, gone) behold all things have become new (without taint or stain).

This is impossible according to scripture without being in Christ and if in Christ, one is not in darkness nor are they slaves being called out.


Unfortunately, the meaning contradicts your very notion of being dead and scriptures definition of being alive.


Yes.. that that is NOT what the scripture itself is saying.. Good try though.
It says plainly, "...that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness ".

Statement of Fact: Those who believe will not STAY in darkness. Still stands. That's the clear message of that passage.

However no non-cal disagrees that no man will know or come to God unless God call to him.. we just disagree that scripture implies there is any such thing as a effectual calling for some and a false calling to others. When God calls.. He calls.. the same way to all men to whom He sends it. We differ in mechanics on how it operates, true, but not in what it is sent out to accomplish.

No one believes in some "false call" from God.

Many are called; few are chosen. There is a general call that goes out to all men. But there is an effectual call for those chosen of God. There's nothing difficult about that.

Why the call to men who are not chosen? Ask Jeremiah to whom God said- "Preach my words, but they will not hear you." The call of God shows the great wickedness of men's hearts who will not respond.
It is the same reason God commands all men to keep the commandments knowing they cannot. It proves to them their own great wickedness. This proof will stop their mouths at the judgment.

See post 86.

The call is the same to all.. but it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power. Opening their eyes.. to either receive truth.. or trade it for a lie.

Darkness is ignorance.

Men are made alive. Then they open their eyes. Then they come to the light. They are in darkness until they come to the light. One can be alive and be ignorant- in darkness. One cannot be dead and open his eyes at the same time. If it opens its eyes and can see- it is not dead. Call it something else. It stops meeting the requirements of the definition of "dead" when it can open it's eyes and see. It has become something altogether different from dead the moment it starts opening it's eyes and seeing things. You might as well call fire- water, as call something that opens its eyes and sees- dead.

It doesn't make sense to put it in any other order, does it?

This idea that regeneration is only mentioned two times in Scripture is terribly erroneous.

The concept is mentioned throughout the Scripture. It is a great theme of the Bible. You can't pass Theology 101 believing otherwise.

The order of salvation is recorded in I Peter 1

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God (there's step one), through sanctification of the Spirit (there's step two- this is part of the regeneration process), unto obedience (there's step three- obeying the Gospel which commands to repent and trust), and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ (there's the final step- the blood applied- eternal salvation complete!)."

So where does faith fall in that order? Well after the sanctification of the spirit which is part of regeneration. BTW, this is clearly not to be confused with the sanctification of the believer. This is obviously the sanctification of the sinner TO salvation.

Ephesians 2 gives us the order again:

And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins (this is clearly regeneration though you introduce this strange idea that the Bible only mentions it two times)
Wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince and the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (this is man in his unregenerate state- serving Satan) among whom also we all had our conversation in times past (all have been dead in sins) in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature (remember- the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, neither CAN HE!) the children of wrath, even as others.

Now, what hope do these unregenerate, devil serving sinners have?

BUT GOD who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us even when we were dead in sins, HATH QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST...

When did God quicken us? When we were dead. What can dead people do?

Nothing. You must change the definition of "dead" to make dead do anything.

Before someone dead can do anything they have to become alive.

How do they come alive?

By the Word of God. His words are life. He makes dead men live again. They do not fulfill a single prerequisite- because they cannot. So God makes them alive so that they can believe and be saved.

The effectual call of God makes alive. Who does he call?

Romans 8 tells us:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called he justified, and whom he justified them he also glorified.

Here is the order:

God predestined to save some. That's step one.

Those he predestined to save he called. That's step two. That's where regeneration takes place. His word gives life. We see that all through Scripture, don't we?

THEN those who he called he justified. That's step three. How does one become justified?? We know very well, don't we. By faith. Faith takes place after the life giving call.

There is death in sin. Then there is the life giving call. Then there is faith that justifies.

Then there is finally glory.

That's Bible.

But consider it is also logical:

Dead men cannot put faith in anything. When dead men believe we have to change the definition of death.

Dead men can't talk. If it is talking- it is not dead. Call it something else.

Dead men can't walk. If it is walking- it is not dead. Call it something else.

Dead men can't think. If it is thinking- it is not dead. Call it something else.

And dead men can't believe. If it is believing- it is not dead. Call it something else.


That's logic and Scripture and it is pretty well water tight, isn't it?

 

[Luke2427]

Isa. 26:10, “Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.”

 

[Allan]

Allan, long time no see . Hope all is well. I was reading your reply on Luke2427 and wanted to jump in if you don't mind.

No prob.

My view of the call is that there is 2 callings seen in Scripture.

1. The calling from men who are saved to the unbelievers
2. The calling of God which is effectual. Usually united with the 1st call from men.

In order for one to get saved they not only need to hear the Gospel from men, but need to be called by God in heaven "INTERNALLY". There is a sense in which when we preach to the non-elect that they are being called by God genuinely through His Word. Yet, this must be met with the work of the Spirit in bringing about the Father's chosen person. If it isn't, the call is still genuine, but it is not effective because the person is left alone in their sin when they hear.

Here is one problem.
You state the call is genuine..
Thus what is the Call.. is it not to repentance unto salvation?
If the call is genuine as you state then it is for ALL to repent and come to the KNOWLEDGE (meaning they understand) of truth.

So you are left with a couple of more issues.
1. telling those whom Christ did not die for.. that God genuinely desires them to repent and be saved
2. stating the above even implies the truth.

God can not and does not desire for anyone to repent and be saved except those for whom Christ died. If Christ did not die for those whom we are telling (as if God is genuinely calling them) to repent and be saved, and Christ did not in fact die so they CAN be saved.. it is a lie pure and simple.
If Christ did not die for them... there is NO sense in which they can/could repent to be saved. The message is a false calling.

If God, who is just, calls all men with a genuine calling, then God will deal with each person in the same way as God is no respecter of persons, or at least that is what He says.

They need to be given the gift of understanding when they hear. A spiritually dead person will not understand it in a way that will cause him to see Christ and be broken unto repentance and faith.

Interesting.. we find in 1 Cor 1 that even those whom God, through nature, is shown by God.. and they UNDERSTAND.. yet they are dead in their trespasses and sins, still. ANYTHING God reveals is done so in a way that brings understanding.. else you have God trying to do something and failing.. or at least failing on purpose. And if He failing on purpose.. again.. you have a false message and not a genuine one.

Im curious if you could explain your view when you say, "it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power."

You and I both believe that God's calling will bring to Himself a certain people. We just have two different ways of seeing God's calling.
Mine: God designed His calling to reach those whom He desired, which are those who will respond in faith. He didn't make this calling after He looked down the corridors of time to find out who would respond. He chose first how they will come (by faith), He chose who He wanted (those of faith, everyone), and the means to bring them in (a calling to faith). Man had no say.. it was all God's choice.
Example.. If God desire men to be saved by works.. then the calling would be works oriented.. The call is the same to all.. the same power of revelation is to all.. yet only those who respond by working their way to heaven would be saved. Thus the message is genuine in its calling, intent, and purpose but will only be accepted by a certain group out the whole it was sent to.

As for the 2 Corinthians 5:17 verse I would like to clarify your view. You hold that regeneration includes the removal of sin and because it does, faith must precede regeneration as the removal of sins is by justification which comes after faith (haha, tongue twister)? You then put regeneration, justification, and adoption after faith? I think thats what you told me last year when we had this discussion.

Regeneration is a term like salvation that is very general in relation to the full event that has taken place. It designates a state of being not the fullness of the action that has taken place in the person.
Thus yes.. scripture plainly and consistently states faith is before justification and sanctification (which is fully understood biblically as regeneration) both of which place the person in a state of being 'In Christ' for which scripture declares is being alive.

Is it possible that 2 Corinthians 5:17 is not intended to show logical order? if not then why not? Couldn't Paul simply be saying that if you are in Christ that you are a new creation and you have your sins taken away.

I didn't say that showed a logical order of salvation.. It shows a person who regenerate/saved and their spiritual status.. thus illustrating logically, along with multiple other scriptures, that to be IN CHRIST, is to have your sins removed, and thus be in a right standing with God to even be able to be placed INTO Christ.

It is true that the point of regeneration is to literally resurrect a spiritually dead person to life so they may see and believe in Christ for a result of justification and restoration to God for good works.

No.. it is not true and not what I said
It is true that God must open men's eyes to see and understand the truth.. but that is not biblically described as being regenerate.. that is THEOLOGICALLY described.. there is a difference.

 

[Allan]

Statement of Fact: Those who believe will not STAY in darkness. Still stands. That's the clear message of that passage.

You are not listening. The message IS clear from that passage.

"When" did they hear.. while they were IN darkness.
But if they believe.. NOTE again where they are when they believe.. they will not STAY 'in' darkness.

Seriously.. break down the sentence structure and you will see it for yourself. It is plain as day. It does not state those who were in darkness, when they believe.. they will not go back. The problem you have is the sentence itself stands in contradiction to what you are saying.

No one believes in some "false call" from God.

So you believe that God desires the non-elect to repent and come to the knowledge of truth?
This is God's desire correct.. that the non-elect be saved?

Many are called; few are chosen. There is a general call that goes out to all men. But there is an effectual call for those chosen of God. There's nothing difficult about that.

A lot in that we do not find that anywhere in scripture.
We see in scripture God calling people and they reject Him.
We also find Paul telling people NOT to reject God (harden your hearts) when He is calling like their forefathers did.

Interesting that Paul seems to think that man can harden his own heart as God is dealing with Him.. and not in some irresistible calling of God.

Why the call to men who are not chosen? Ask Jeremiah to whom God said- "Preach my words, but they will not hear you." The call of God shows the great wickedness of men's hearts who will not respond.

I think you might want to go back and do some context with that. They would not hear because they were under judgment.. just like Israel was when Christ Jesus came due to their continuing in sin and rejection of God.
It is for THAT reason, God judicial hardening for their sins, that only some would come to Christ Jesus at that time.

Darkness is ignorance.

In some instances yes but not always.. it is also a reference to ones spiritual state of being in relation to God who is light.

Men are made alive.

Please show me scripture which states a man is spiritually alive apart from being IN Christ Jesus.

They are in darkness until they come to the light. One can be alive and be ignorant- in darkness.

Again.. speculation based upon your theology not scripture.
Show me scripture where it states one can be alive apart from Christ.. and not only that.. but be alive and still in darkness.

One cannot be dead and open his eyes at the same time.

They can if one holds to a biblical definition of dead and not one of a theological construct.

If spiritually dead means what you say it means.. basically that dead means you can not do anything..
Then I assume you presume yourself sinless and that you will never commit any sins here-after either.
If not.. then what does scripture mean with it says that "you (the believer) are dead indeed to sin"?

If you are dead, according to your definition, then no believe is able to sin.. ever!
Yet we find that though we ARE dead to sin.. we are to also consider ourselves dead to sin.. in that we should not willingly sin.
How can a person dead TO something (whether sin or God) ever desire something they are unable to desire or want?
Quite a contradiction huh?

It doesn't make sense to put it in any other order, does it?

Yes.. I'm afraid it does. Again.. you 'presume' you are correct but have failed to prove your position because you are making claims about words meanings.. but you will not find them defined in the manner you are stating them to be.

This idea that regeneration is only mentioned two times in Scripture is terribly erroneous.

really.. show me all the passages in scripture with the term regeneration in them. I know of only two. I might be a little rusty and will willingly look over any other passages you can provide.

The concept is mentioned throughout the Scripture. It is a great theme of the Bible. You can't pass Theology 101 believing otherwise.

Agreed here.. but I didn't say 'concept' now did I?


I will have to get to the rest later as I am at work and need to start getting things ready to close out.

However.. it is the same old arguments that have been addressed time and time again.. whether you like the answers or not, they are and have been addressed many, many, many times on here and of course other places beside the good ol' BB

it has been fun!

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke

Honest question, how do YOU know that YOU are of the household of faith?

 

[Winman]

Men are created good? You are confusing Adam and the rest of mankind. Mankind is born in sin. They have a sin nature they inherited from their parents. Man is born corrupt. If man is born good with no sin nature, then how does he become corrupt? How does his nature change. You make choices based on your nature.

Show me one verse of scripture that says man inherited an evil nature from Adam and Eve.

Men are born just like Adam and Eve, innocent. Adam and Eve were not perfect, else they would have been equal to God. God cannot sin, Adam and Eve had the ability to sin or else could not have sinned. All children are born innocent just as Adam and Eve were.

It is true that Adam and Eve were very good, they were sinless, they were pure. But they had free will and the ability to choose to do wrong.

God did not curse man's nature, you will not find one word in all of scripture to support that. What do the scriptures say God cursed? The ground.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

You will not find one word in this curse or anywhere else in the scriptures that says God cursed man's moral nature.

What happened when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is just that, they obtained the knowledge of good and evil. They obtained conscience and self awareness. Before they ate they were just like little children who run around naked and are completely unaware of it. As soon as they ate they realized they were naked, they became self-conscious. They also for the first time understood the difference between good and evil and realized they had sinned. This is why they ran and hid themselves when they heard God's voice in the garden.

And this is what man inherited from Adam and Eve, self-awareness and conscience. But these abilities take time to develop and mature in little children. Until children are old enough to understand between good and evil they are not held accountable and are innocent in God's eyes.

But nowhere do the scriptures say that man's moral nature was corrupted so that man cannot do good. In fact, in the next chapter we see that Cain could have done good if he chose to do so.

All through the scriptures we see God telling man to make a choice whether to do good or evil. If man were absolutely enslaved to a sin nature this would be a ridiculous command. God would know man cannot possibly obey it.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Moses set both life and death before the Jews. They had the ability to choose either. Calvinism ignores the many plain verses in the scriptures that shows man has the ability to choose either good or evil of his own free will.

 

[webdog]

You and I are not on the same page so there's no point in exchanging until we do.

What is your point about "in darkness" and "in Christ"?

In all fairness, a non-cal and cal are not on the same page...so do you think any exchange on this matter is fruitless? If it weren't for these exchanges, I may still be interpreting Bible through TULIP's.

 

[Winman]

One cannot be dead and open his eyes at the same time.

This is where Calvinists err greatly. You cannot compare spiritual death to physical death. A person who is physically dead can do nothing whatsoever, but this is not true of those who are spiritually dead, they can do many things. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 could see, hear, feel, speak, felt remorse and repentance, and worried about his brothers. The spiritually dead are not like someone who is physically dead.

And this is shown with Adam and Eve. Did they die spiritually when they ate the forbidden fruit? Yes. But could they hear God and respond to him when he callled? Yes.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Adam and Eve were spiritually dead in sin, yet they heard God in the garden and were aware of him and hid themselves. When God called they heard his voice and responded to him. They carried on a conversation with God.

We know Cain was lost and unregenerate, yet he carried on a conversation with God in chapter 4.

So, Calvinists greatly err, they misunderstand completely spiritual death. It is not like physical death whatsoever. Spiritual death means to be separated from God, but it never means man cannot respond to God.

You need to quit listening to false teaches who cherry pick verses to teach a false doctrine the scriptures never teach.

 

[quantumfaith]

This is where Calvinists err greatly. You cannot compare spiritual death to physical death. A person who is physically dead can do nothing whatsoever, but this is not true of those who are spiritually dead, they can do many things. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 could see, hear, feel, speak, felt remorse and repentance, and worried about his brothers. The spiritually dead are not like someone who is physically dead.

And this is shown with Adam and Eve. Did they die spiritually when they ate the forbidden fruit? Yes. But could they hear God and respond to him when he callled? Yes.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Adam and Eve were spiritually dead in sin, yet they heard God in the garden and were aware of him and hid themselves. When God called they heard his voice and responded to him. They carried on a conversation with God.

We know Cain was lost and unregenerate, yet he carried on a conversation with God in chapter 4.

So, Calvinists greatly err, they misunderstand completely spiritual death. It is not like physical death whatsoever. Spiritual death means to be separated from God, but it never means man cannot respond to God.

You need to quit listening to false teaches who cherry pick verses to teach a false doctrine the scriptures never teach.

Good illustration Winman. Both C and A and most in between believe in the depravity of man, but not necessarily the way in which the reformers define it.

 

[jbh28]

Show me one verse of scripture that says man inherited an evil nature from Adam and Eve.

But nowhere do the scriptures say that man's moral nature was corrupted so that man cannot do good. In fact, in the next chapter we see that Cain could have done good if he chose to do so.

You are very ignorant of the total depravity doctrine so why should I waste my time with you. you are unwilling to even say the doctrine correctly. Yes, Cain could have done good if he chose to do so. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. But as Luke said, men being born with a sin nature or developing a sin nature after birth isn't the issue, but that he has a sin nature now.

All through the scriptures we see God telling man to make a choice whether to do good or evil. If man were absolutely enslaved to a sin nature this would be a ridiculous command. God would know man cannot possibly obey it.

Be holy. A ridiculous command that nobody can obey.

If you would like to debate the doctrine of an inherited sin nature, feel free to start a thread on it and I'll join in. I don't want to continue to get off subject here as Luke as a specific subject he wants to discuss.

 

[Winman]

Good illustration Winman. Both C and A and most in between believe in the depravity of man, but not necessarily the way in which the reformers define it.

Well, you will never get any Calvinist to admit this, but when they say the unregenerate cannot respond to God, they are also saying God does not have the power to speak to the spiritually dead. That seems to elude them, but it is necessarily the case if their doctrine be true.

But Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear will live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Calvinists say the spiritually dead cannot hear God's voice, but they have to hear to live.

Calvinists deny that God has the power to speak to the dead. They say he can only speak to the living.

 

[Winman]

You are very ignorant of the total depravity doctrine so why should I waste my time with you. you are unwilling to even say the doctrine correctly. Yes, Cain could have done good if he chose to do so. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. But as Luke said, men being born with a sin nature or developing a sin nature after birth isn't the issue, but that he has a sin nature now.

Not so. Many Calvinists teach that unregenerate man is utterly unable to respond positively to God.

You see, the story of Cain destroys the Calvinistic concept of Total Depravity. If Cain was able to do good (and God himself said he could), then according to Calvinism he must be regenerated. If regenerated, he could in no way resist God's grace. But we know from the New Testament that Cain was lost.

There is no way around it, the story of Cain completely refutes Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.

 

[jbh28]

Not so. Many Calvinists teach that unregenerate man is utterly unable to respond positively to God.

You see, the story of Cain destroys the Calvinistic concept of Total Depravity. If Cain was able to do good (and God himself said he could), then according to Calvinism he must be regenerated. If regenerated, he could in no way resist God's grace. But we know from the New Testament that Cain was lost.

There is no way around it, the story of Cain completely refutes Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.

Interesting as I believe in total depravity and the story of Cain doesn't destory my doctrine at all and in fact supports it.

Seriously, start another thread. Put the story of Cain and discuss Cain and total depravity. I don't want to keep hi-jacking this thread.

 

[Winman]

Interesting as I believe in total depravity and the story of Cain doesn't destory my doctrine at all and in fact supports it.

Seriously, start another thread. Put the story of Cain and discuss Cain and total depravity. I don't want to keep hi-jacking this thread.

Well, then you are not a consistent Calvinist (I do not know what you are).

But many Calvinists say that an unregenerate man cannot not do one good thing, that everything he does must be evil. That has been said in this very thread.

You agreed that Cain could do good. You are correct, because that is exactly what God said. And it was truly good, because God said he would be accepted.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Some here say that the unregenerate can appear to do good, but it is not true good because it is marred by evil motives or some other effect. But God said if Cain did good it would be accepted, therefore Can could have done true good.

Well, that's a problem. Calvinism says the unregenerate cannot do true good. Therefore, Cain must have been regenerate. But we know Cain was lost.

Think about it awhile and you will see Gen 4:7 absolutely refutes Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.