What can unregenerate man do?

[Luke2427]

No brothers, not for me there isnt. This would be a piller you could burn me from. Were it not for Gods having chosen some, Heaven would have none.

Yes, absolutely. I love that last sentence!!

And I would go to that same pillar. Like Luther I must say, "Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, absolutely. I love that last sentence!!

And I would go to that same pillar. Like Luther I must say, "Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me."

Luke ...I would advise that you have done your conscience & argued your position & your to be commended. But as Christians there is division among us all. Your welcome to continue in your endevor or work with these folks to look for ways to bring Christ to the unbeliever. After all, wasnt John Wesley an Arminian & while I agree muddled He was still a child of God with visitation from the Holy Ghost. We can agree to disagree but still do the Great Commission. That brothers & sisters is my choice.

 

[webdog]

AMEN!

Without God's first act of revelation, no act of human free will can do the first thing for us.

...and I don't know of a non cal who would disagree with this except a pelagian

Our problem is that we do not wish to surrender our own sovereignty to our rightful King. Such has been the case since the Adversary decided to test the limits of his will against a sovereign Father. When he fell, he came to make sure that we too would fall with him. We did, and ever since, we have placed something between us and our King. Whether our reason, logical arguments, interpretation of Scripture, etc., all good things, given us by the same God who is our King, but none that can replace the grace OF the King.

The problem is actually not understanding sovereignty, not surrendering ourselves over to a flawed understanding of it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That's just not biblical. It really is not, is it?

To the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING IS PURE.

You've got God's word in direct opposition to yours, don't you?

What do you do with that?

First I tell you that you are wrong in your hypothesis of my statement. I did not say anyone was pure. I just said there is enough of God's image left for us to occassionally make good choices.
Next I tell you that verses that are often taken specifically should be taken generally like

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

In general this is true. However, I doubt "every single thought of every single man was evil" Many thoughts are neutral and have nothing to do one way or another like "I'm hungry I think I should eat." To say this thought is evil is plain idiotic. Also culturally the bible was written in the near easter context like in this verse

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

which is purposely an exageration to make the point

That we're sinners and we express it from even the youngest age; in this case, David expressing the utter depth of his own sin, in light of events with Bathsheba. While I in no way mean to imply that our sin is not serious or extensive, it is no more legitimate for the Calvinist to use this verse as they do than it is for the Skeptics

Note Jeremiah is known for his hyperboli.
Then I show you scripture from a contextual understanding of these passages we can see mens behaviors have two distinct differences

Genesis 7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen [that] you [are] righteous before Me in this generation."

There is not indication there has been regeneration before this point in his life also with Job.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

And in the psalms

Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken, But the Lord upholds the righteous.

Then I ask if no man was perfect and all are totally depraved in the sense you understand it how then is scripture lying when it says

Genesis 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

? It couldn't be unless men can and do make good decisions. No one is saying men aren't sinners or that a man is perfect but we are saying that despite original sin we are still made in the image of God and thus have also the ability to make occassional good decisions not based on our evil intent. And when you look at the world and how it functions you'l see that though there are sins that there are also unregenrate people who do good acts with good intentions.

 

[Luke2427]

First I tell you that you are wrong in your hypothesis of my statement. I did not say anyone was pure. I just said there is enough of God's image left for us to occassionally make good choices.

But the verse does not say just that everyone is impure. I didn't say that you said someone was pure. The verse says to the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING is pure. nothing they do or think or say is pure.

Next I tell you that verses that are often taken specifically should be taken generally like In general this is true.

In this entire debate I don't think I have used any of these verses that you quote.

Romans 8 is certainly not hyperbole. It says that the carnal mind is enmity with God and is NOT subject unto the law of God NEITHER CAN IT BE...

That's one of a dozen verses I've provided that declare unequivocally that EVERYTHING that natural man does is sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

you find yourself in opposition? Really, whom is talking now Dave?

Dave, you know my testimony. You know some of the trying times I put myself through & my sorrow at loosing a child in infancy. As I sat on that ash pit I had time to consider the filth of a man I was & I was ashamed. At that point I humbled myself beyond recognition & looked at all the Lord did, all he accomplished on the cross for my salvation. What did I do for it ....nothing. Certainly I deserved death.

EWF, dear friend, I do remember you sharing that with me. Please tell me that you think those of us who are not "reformed" are incapable of the same feelings and knowledge of unworthiness. Perhaps we are making some headway.

Reformers think non-reformers are incapable of "humility" because of our insistance of "free will" being part of the equation.

Non-reformers, think reformers are incapable of humility because of their view of soveriegnty and predestination etc.

I can only speak for myself, I KNOW, as much as is humanly possible, how UNWORTHRY I am.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But the verse does not say just that everyone is impure. I didn't say that you said someone was pure. The verse says to the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING is pure. nothing they do or think or say is pure.

In this entire debate I don't think I have used any of these verses that you quote.

Romans 8 is certainly not hyperbole. It says that the carnal mind is enmity with God and is NOT subject unto the law of God NEITHER CAN IT BE...

That's one of a dozen verses I've provided that declare unequivocally that EVERYTHING that natural man does is sin.

I could continue to make my case that I think you've taken eastern contextual exageration and made it into a specific case. That in fact not everything that a natural man does is sin but much of it is neutral and some of it is good. But that the inclination of his heart is towards evil. I believe it can be seen in scriptures as I've shown. And more to the point I believe it can be observed in reality. I believe this aspect of tulip (total depravity) isn't represented in reality and not a true depiction of the condition of man. That is not to say man isn't tainted or marred with sin. Man has the Concupiscence of sin. But it doesn't entirely erradicate the image of God.
However, I know you hold your position tightly and will not be convinced otherwise. So I'll put it out there for your perusal to note that there is a valid opposition to that perspective. Also unfortunately for you, you will not be able to change my mind or position on this matter and thus we are at a stalemate. In which case we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, dear friend, I do remember you sharing that with me. Please tell me that you think those of us who are not "reformed" are incapable of the same feelings and knowledge of unworthiness. Perhaps we are making some headway.

Reformers think non-reformers are incapable of "humility" because of our insistance of "free will" being part of the equation.

Non-reformers, think reformers are incapable of humility because of their view of soveriegnty and predestination etc.

I can only speak for myself, I KNOW, as much as is humanly possible, how UNWORTHRY I am.

My brother, There are many non calvinists Id give up my life for. Remember I did not advise or coordinate this thread. Think of the devils thorough enjoyment over Christians of all stripes killing one another over the opportunity to prove the other wrong. As I told another brother, when you gotta guy who derives enjoyment over slandering & debasing & otherwise humiliating another over different views, Im all for that guy being exposed & put to rest.....we all know what fraud we are discussing here. But when we start attacking other brothers, Im not for it & I refuse to participate....so you know where i stand. Undoubtedly some will want to continue in this nonsense but I wont....Its merely a fools errand & you and I are not that.

 

[Luke2427]

I could continue to make my case that I think you've taken eastern contextual exageration and made it into a specific case. That in fact not everything that a natural man does is sin but much of it is neutral and some of it is good. But that the inclination of his heart is towards evil. I believe it can be seen in scriptures as I've shown. And more to the point I believe it can be observed in reality. I believe this aspect of tulip (total depravity) isn't represented in reality and not a true depiction of the condition of man. That is not to say man isn't tainted or marred with sin. Man has the Concupiscence of sin. But it doesn't entirely erradicate the image of God.
However, I know you hold your position tightly and will not be convinced otherwise. So I'll put it out there for your perusal to note that there is a valid opposition to that perspective. Also unfortunately for you, you will not be able to change my mind or position on this matter and thus we are at a stalemate. In which case we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Not only is it biblical as I have shown repeatedly, but it is logical.

Everything that a godless man does is godless.

God is the measure, the sum and substance of good.

Therefore nothing that man does without God is good.

That's why the Paul said "There is none that doeth good, no not one"

There you have it. Bible and logic demand it, do you still not see it?

 

[Luke2427]

But when we start attacking other brothers, Im not for it & I refuse to participate..

I hope that I have not done this. And I hope that most can differentiate between attacking a position and attacking a person.

 

[Amy.G]

This is a very good verse to apply to this discussion.

Yes. It totally answers your question.

I think the idea of the passage is that even evil people look out for their own. How much more does God?!

Exactly. Even the unregenerate do good things. Jesus called them "good" gifts, not me.

Cake is good, but if I bake it and give it to you with impure motives, the gift is good- the giving is evil because it comes from heart driven by ulterior, corrupt motives

So if an unbeliever cares for his child, it is because of corrupt motives?? Nonsense.

There have been many unbelievers that even give their own lives to save another. (Those in the military, firemen, policemen, some in the world trade center on 9/11) How can their motives be corrupt?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not only is it biblical as I have shown repeatedly, but it is logical.

Everything that a godless man does is godless.

God is the measure, the sum and substance of good.

Therefore nothing that man does without God is good.

That's why the Paul said "There is none that doeth good, no not one"

There you have it. Bible and logic demand it, do you still not see it?

No I don't see it. I believe that you're looking at passage taking out the cultural and natural context of the passage thus are incapable of seeing things like exageration or sarcasm. I think Paul is to be taken generally not specifically in this passage. Passage is constructed so as to make his point about righteousness and reliance on God he's not making a defense of Total depravity. Just like Noah wasn't really perfect however it is noted that way as to say he behaved in a righteous manner. It is in this same sence that "there is one that doeth good, no not one" and certainly nothing we do merits salvation. But that doesn't make us incapable of good. So, not only do I think your position is not biblical its not observable in reality. We frequently see men do good things who are not regenerate.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I hope that I have not done this. And I hope that most can differentiate between attacking a position and attacking a person.

Luke....No not you, but they know the miscreants I am referring to. They are intelligent people & can differentiate

 

[glfredrick]

...and I don't know of a non cal who would disagree with this except a pelagian

The problem is actually not understanding sovereignty, not surrendering ourselves over to a flawed understanding of it.

Webdog, what I think that you are getting at, and a point with which I heartily agree, is that with GOD there is no division. As I noted in another thread with a poll, "Will I admit to being wrong?" I made exactly that point. When I see one brother calling out this Bible verse to disprove another brother who calls out another one, I realize the depths of our sin, for we make God out to be a liar, when in fact it is our own shortcomings that do not allow us to find clarity in the Text.

Is there free will or God's sovereignty? Yes! Both! Has to be. God said so; even if I have no greater grasp on how that can be than my grasp of how the Trinity works. I can see it revealed. I can reason both (or more) sides. I can attempt to construct some allegorical means to create a narrative that explains what I cannot, but I cannot make the truth of God's revelation go away.

But, all that being said, we finite human beings sort of have to come down on one side or the other. That's what this debate is all about. With whatever aspects of human will I have, I "choose" to come down on God's side -- period. If I err, no harm. People are saved, enter eternity with God, and do the good works of repentance. If those who center on human free will err, there can be great harm at the end of the day, for they may convince people who are not truly saved that they are based on human logic and wisdom. I believe that all of us have seen examples of how that works in our real church life. Both sides have had to construct some means of dealing with that reality, and neither side is likely right there either, but again, we have to take a stand somewhere.

What REALLY sets my teeth on edge, however, is when the side that favors human free will stereotypes the "Calvinist" as one who is not concerned with missions, salvation of souls, work of God, etc. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and taking a stereotypical position based on human "logic" that if God is solely responsible for the act of salvation so no human would ever go to the lost, is not only ludicrous, but proven false. John Piper, author of one of the seminal theological works on mission (Let the Nations Be Glad!: The Supremacy of God in Missions) is as solidly Calvinistic as one can be. Spurgeon, also Calvinistic in theology did more than any other man of his age to further the work of missions in Europe, including starting schools to train pastors and missionaries.

At the end of the day, it is not human logic that dictates our theology. It is the Word of God, and following the express will of God. God said, "GO!" And, so we do. God said that He would draw the elect! And, so He does. We go on mission knowing and expecting that God is already at work before we arrive, and that our arrival at the doorstep of a lost person means that God has a divine appointment date for the encounter.

 

[Winman]

How is this related to what an unregenerate person can do? Are you saying that unregenerate cannot come until God draws them. At that point, God gives the unregenerate the ability to come. In other words give him a little bit of good to make a choice?

The unregenerate man cannot know of Jesus Christ unless it is revealed to him by the Word of God, therefore, he cannot possibly come. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 10:13-14

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul says whosoever (this means 100% of men) calls upon Jesus for salvation shall be saved.

But then Paul asks how any man can possibly call on Jesus unless they first believe in him? The implied answer is that they can't. And this is true. A person who does not truly believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for his sins will not call on Jesus for salvation. A Muslim might believe Jesus is a prophet, but he does not believe Jesus to be God and will not call on Jesus to save him from his sins. A Buddist might think Jesus a great teacher, but he does not believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for his sins and therefore will never call on Jesus to save him from his sins.

Only a person who truly believes Jesus is the Son of God who died for his sins and rose from the dead will call on Jesus to save him. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, how could we call on him?

But then Paul asks how any man can call on Jesus if he has never heard of him? You can't. No natural man will ever conceive of or imagine the gospel. Natural man will always believe he can save himself through merit.

So, it is impossible for unregenerate man to be saved unless God reveals the gospel to him. But when unregenerate man hears the Word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ, then he can call upon Jesus to save him if he believes the Word of God is true.

 

[Winman]

But, all that being said, we finite human beings sort of have to come down on one side or the other.

The problem is, some people define sovereignty in an unscriptural way. Is God in complete control? Yes. But does God allow men to act freely? Yes.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Twice God said the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal in fire, and that he NEVER commanded this, he NEVER said it, and that this idea NEVER entered his heart or mind.

Calvinists cannot handle this. To them God must be in absolute control of every little event that occurs. But the scriptures clearly teach man has his own mind and free will and can make decisions independently of God.

Does this mean God is not in control? No. If we have our own mind and can make our own decisions it is because God gave us this ability. If God had wanted to, he could have made us programmed robots that could never disobey him.

However, there would be no such thing as love if man were a robot. A programmed robot cannot love, it can only do what it is programmed to do. Oh, you could program a robot to tell you a thousand times a day that it loves you, but everybody knows this would not be real love, and would not be satisfying to anyone.

No, for love to be real you must have choice. For anyone to sincerely love you, they must also have the ability to hate you.

God wants people who love him because he first loved them and gave his Son for them. He does not force himself on anyone, but he shows his great love in that he gave his Son for us. We have the ability to accept this love or refuse it.

 

[webdog]

The problem is, some people define sovereignty in an unscriptural way. Is God in complete control? Yes. But does God allow men to act freely? Yes.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Twice God said the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal in fire, and that he NEVER commanded this, he NEVER said it, and that this idea NEVER entered his heart or mind.

Calvinists cannot handle this. To them God must be in absolute control of every little event that occurs. But the scriptures clearly teach man has his own mind and free will and can make decisions independently of God.

Does this mean God is not in control? No. If we have our own mind and can make our own decisions it is because God gave us this ability. If God had wanted to, he could have made us programmed robots that could never disobey him.

However, there would be no such thing as love if man were a robot. A programmed robot cannot love, it can only do what it is programmed to do. Oh, you could program a robot to tell you a thousand times a day that it loves you, but everybody knows this would not be real love, and would not be satisfying to anyone.

No, for love to be real you must have choice. For anyone to sincerely love you, they must also have the ability to hate you.

God wants people who love him because he first loved them and gave his Son for them. He does not force himself on anyone, but he shows his great love in that he gave his Son for us. We have the ability to accept this love or refuse it. God wants those who love him of their own free will.

Good stuff :thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

Yes. It totally answers your question.


Exactly. Even the unregenerate do good things. Jesus called them "good" gifts, not me.



So if an unbeliever cares for his child, it is because of corrupt motives?? Nonsense.

There have been many unbelievers that even give their own lives to save another. (Those in the military, firemen, policemen, some in the world trade center on 9/11) How can their motives be corrupt?

You've got a problem, Amy. It is that the Bible says one thing and you are calling it nonsense while saying another.

How can a person care for a child if they don't know God. Every meal they feed that child is idolatry. It says, "I care for this child and will give of my time and treasure and talents to this child but not to YOUR Son God, not to your Son. He can have none of it!! He is not worthy! This child IS!"

Every thing he does for that child is wickedness in his own heart. His motive is godless and of necessity wicked.

This is why Jesus Christ Himself said, "An evil tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit."


This is why Paul said, "I know that in my flesh dwelleth NO GOOD THING."

This is why Paul said, "To the corrupt and defiled NOTHING is pure."

This is why Paul said, "There is NONE that doeth good, NO NOT ONE."

It is time for you to yield on this Amy. This idea that unregenerate man has some goodness in him is decimated by this point in the debate.

 

[Luke2427]

No I don't see it. I believe that you're looking at passage taking out the cultural and natural context of the passage thus are incapable of seeing things like exageration or sarcasm. I think Paul is to be taken generally not specifically in this passage. Passage is constructed so as to make his point about righteousness and reliance on God he's not making a defense of Total depravity. Just like Noah wasn't really perfect however it is noted that way as to say he behaved in a righteous manner. It is in this same sence that "there is one that doeth good, no not one" and certainly nothing we do merits salvation. But that doesn't make us incapable of good. So, not only do I think your position is not biblical its not observable in reality. We frequently see men do good things who are not regenerate.

Then there is nothing the Bible can say that will convince you- period.

The Bible could not be plainer and is not as plain on most subjects.

I mean how would the Bible have to say it to convince you that nothing the natural man does is good? What words would God have to use to convince you?

Tell us. I bet you do not rise to this challenge.

Not only so, but I have proven to you the logic of it.

Man without God is without good because God is the sum and substance of good.

And you CANNOT prove ANYWHERE in Scripture that man still has this divine goodness left in his nature.

 

[Winman]

The Bible could not be plainer and is not as plain on most subjects.

I mean how would the Bible have to say it to convince you that nothing the natural man does is good? What words would God have to use to convince you?

It is only plain if you willfully reject scripture that clearly refutes you view.

Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus said sinners love those who love them. This is good, there is nothing wrong with this whatsoever. He was simply saying it is even better to love those who do not love you.

Jesus said sinners do good to those who do good to them. There is nothing wrong with this either, we should do good to those who do good to us. But Jesus was saying it is even better to do good to those who do not do good to you.

Jesus was comparing the saved with lost sinners and said sinners do "the same". Their love is not a different kind of love, and their good works are not a different kind of work, they are "the same".

You choose to ignore scripture like this.