What can unregenerate man do?

[Iconoclast]

I agree. I posted awhile back that Jesus is our redeemer. The word redeem means to buy back or pay a ransom. How can Jesus buy back someone who was never His to begin with?? at some point in our lives we belonged to God (spiritually alive). At some point we willfully sinned (just as Adam) and died spiritually. It is then that we need to be bought back.
To me, understanding the redemption of Christ for our souls explains what happens to babies when they die and also how we spiritually die.

you say this;

at some point in our lives we belonged to God (spiritually alive). At some point we willfully sinned (just as Adam) and died spiritually. It is then that we need to be bought back.

this denies the reality of the fall as stated.Is this what you meant to say?

 

[Amy.G]

you say this;


this denies the reality of the fall as stated.Is this what you meant to say?

I don't deny the fall. The result upon all mankind was physical death. We all die. We die spiritually though because of our own sin, not the sin of another. God does not hold anyone responsible for another's sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't deny the fall. The result upon all mankind was physical death. We all die. We die spiritually though because of our own sin, not the sin of another. God does not hold anyone responsible for another's sin.

So your denying the tenant of Original Sin?

 

[Amy.G]

So your denying the tenant of Original Sin?

The Augustinian version? Yes.


God's word makes it clear that a person is responsible for their own sin.


Because of Adam's sin, we all die physically. We die spiritually because of our own personal sin, just as Adam did.

Death means separation.
Physical death = spirit separation from the body.
Spiritual death = spirit separation from God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't deny the fall. The result upon all mankind was physical death. We all die. We die spiritually though because of our own sin, not the sin of another. God does not hold anyone responsible for another's sin.

That is not accurate Amy.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The whole basis of the gospel are the two representative men.

 

[psalms109:31]

Lazarus

Lazarus was made alive by the word of Jesus. I believe Christ still weeps for us. It doesn't make a difference if God choses one and denies another or one walks the path God provided for life, both have reason to praise themselves. We are to teach and encourage one another to believe trust in Christ and do what His word teaches us. In this we will be humble and meek. To be last and Christ first. I believe many question people ask is to side track those who are coming to Christ down the road God provided for man.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[Psalm 95:7-11]

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

When I trust in Christ I have nothing to boast in but Him no matter what men try to say.

 

[Luke2427]

When I trust in Christ I have nothing to boast in but Him no matter what men try to say.

Something doesn't ring true here, does it?

 

[convicted1]

That is not accurate Amy.


The whole basis of the gospel are the two representative men.

Bro Iconoclast,

I see that you believe we are born "spiritually dead" from birth, correct? Let's take a look at the Word of God and see what It has to say about this:

First off, lets look at this scripture here:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

According to this verse right here, man became a living soul. The body that God made from the dust, was lifeless until He breathed into it, and only then, it "came alive". The "breath" here, is the soul of man which comes from God.

Now lets look at His instructions given to Adam and Eve while they were in the Garden:

Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Again, God tells Adam that if he eats of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he WILL DIE!!

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

They were naked before the Lord and they were not ashamed. Why? Because they hadn't sinned yet, and therefore their eyes were blinded to sin. Sin is what seperates us from God. Just like a baby when it runs throught the house naked when you try to change their diaper. They don't realize they are naked.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

This right here shows that Eve herself knew the command that God had given them while they lived in the Garden.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Here shows that we Eve "desired" the fruit(sin), she ate of it, and in turn, gave it unto Adam, and he, too, ate of it. It was after this they realized they were "naked" and covered their nakedness up.

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

God came there, but He never mentioned to Adam that He knew what had happend. Adam's guilt came from his own mouth, and then God asked him,"Who told you you was"? Man will hang themselves everytime, given enough to do it.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. The flaming sword is a "type and shadow" of the Gospel: Hebrews 4:12, Rev. 1:16.

So you see Bro. Iconoclast, "death" as you believe it isn't correct. If God told them "ye shall surely die", when they ate of the fruit, then He lied to them. He drove them out of the Garden(seperation from God because of sin), but they were still alive "physically". They died "spiritually", because their eyes were opened and they understood their nakedness. However, they didn't know they were naked until they ate of that tree. Before the fall, they were "blind to sin", but after the fall, they were "blinded by sin". Two major differences there. Please don't let this post come off "snotty", "snippy", etc. I just wanted to show everyone what really took place(or at least this is how I believe it happened) in the fall of man.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[glfredrick]

I don't deny the fall. The result upon all mankind was physical death. We all die. We die spiritually though because of our own sin, not the sin of another. God does not hold anyone responsible for another's sin.

This response, though heartfelt, is not biblical.

The fall was not merely physical. It was primarily spiritual.

You have taken a heart for babies and built that into a theological platform that you cannot sustain without walking away from Christianity.

Are you sure that you wish to go down that road?

 

[Old Union Brother]

How many times are we going to go around in the same circle with this thread. Although I enjoyed reading this thread in the beginning and posted at least once it now appears that we are going in circles.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Willis,
I do believe we are born spiritually dead,all having died in Adam;consider

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

yes...death.....seperation......having no hope, and without God in the world:

This is why we need to be born from above:thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

Something doesn't ring true here, does it?

This is brought to you by the letter I.

Romans 11
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

There is nothing wrong with the letter I unless it is praising
oneself and not God.

 

[webdog]

This response, though heartfelt, is not biblical.

The fall was not merely physical. It was primarily spiritual.

You have taken a heart for babies and built that into a theological platform that you cannot sustain without walking away from Christianity.

Are you sure that you wish to go down that road?

It's actually quite biblical. The curse of the fall was primarily death, not spiritual over physical...just death.

 

[webdog]

Hello Willis,
I do believe we are born spiritually dead,all having died in Adam;consider











yes...death.....seperation......having no hope, and without God in the world:

This is why we need to be born from above:thumbs:

None of those passages state man is created a "sinner". You must approach those texts with that presupposition already in tow to arrive at that conclusion.

 

[webdog]

Something doesn't ring true here, does it?

What doesn't ring true? Were you saved by someone other than you putting faith in Christ?

 

[quantumfaith]

It's actually quite biblical. The curse of the fall was primarily death, not spiritual over physical...just death.

Webdog, is it not possible for us (all) to agree the fall brought both physical death and spiritual death to humanity? As I see it, physical death, seems to have been brought about by being banned from the Tree of Life, and spiritual by the act of disobedience itself. Is this plausible?

 

[webdog]

Webdog, is it not possible for us (all) to agree the fall brought both physical death and spiritual death to humanity? As I see it, physical death, seems to have been brought about by being banned from the Tree of Life, and spiritual by the act of disobedience itself. Is this plausible?

That is my point, it was not physical over spiritual or spiritual over physical...sin brought forth death. The curse on mankind was physical death to all, but spiritual death is brought about in the same manner it did for Adam, by breaking God's law. One can have the curse of physical death without spiritual death...all believers fall into this camp, and infants and the MRDD as well as they do not consciously violate God's law, and in the instance they unintentionally violate God's law, the atonement of Christ still covers that (as the OT atonement did for unintentional sin)

 

[Amy.G]

It's actually quite biblical. The curse of the fall was primarily death, not spiritual over physical...just death.

Thanks WD. I didn't think I was alone in this. In fact I think this a pretty much a Baptist position.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Augustinian version? Yes.


God's word makes it clear that a person is responsible for their own sin.


Because of Adam's sin, we all die physically. We die spiritually because of our own personal sin, just as Adam did.

Death means separation.
Physical death = spirit separation from the body.
Spiritual death = spirit separation from God.

Amy , Now Im confused, I was raised as a RC & under some very orthodox people & wasnt taught that....do you have anything to support that?

 

[quantumfaith]

That is my point, it was not physical over spiritual or spiritual over physical...sin brought forth death. The curse on mankind was physical death to all, but spiritual death is brought about in the same manner it did for Adam, by breaking God's law. One can have the curse of physical death without spiritual death...all believers fall into this camp, and infants and the MRDD as well as they do not consciously violate God's law, and in the instance they unintentionally violate God's law, the atonement of Christ still covers that (as the OT atonement did for unintentional sin)

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: