Who wields the most power in the Trinity?

[webdog]

According to Romans 10, it is not a pre-faith regeneration. That is where your confusion starts. There is no such thing as a pre-faith regeneration

You're preaching to the choir. I believe regeneration, justification are simultaneous the moment we are in Christ.

My thread was in regards to those who hold to pre-faith regeneration.

 

[glfredrick]

You're preaching to the choir. I believe regeneration, justification are simultaneous the moment we are in Christ.

My thread was in regards to those who hold to pre-faith regeneration.

Good to know... :thumbs:

 

[canadyjd]

You think wrong. I have read on this very board that man cannot respond to Christ unless they are first "quickened" by the Holy Spirit. The pre-faith regeneration view's logical conclusion leads to that concept.

Again, if someone used those words, then I cannot agree. I suspect they were simply careless in their choice of words.

In Romans 8:9 you find that the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ" are referred to as the same Spirit. This is a reference to Holy Spirit.

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

So, if a person is "responding to Christ" they are responding to the Spirit of Christ", which means Holy Spirit. The persons within the Godhead will not work contrary to each other.

However, responding to "Christ" and responding to the Gospel of Jesus Christ are two different things.

I believe a person must have God, Holy Spirit intervening in their lives to respond unto salvation to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

peace to youraying:

 

[SRBooe]

You're preaching to the choir. I believe regeneration, justification are simultaneous the moment we are in Christ.

My thread was in regards to those who hold to pre-faith regeneration.

Brother, that is the bone to which I refer.

I don't think there is any meat on it, but I think that this is not your first attempt to gnaw on it.

 

[webdog]

Brother, that is the bone to which I refer.

I don't think there is any meat on it, but I think that this is not your first attempt to gnaw on it.

In your analogical speak I'm not sure your intentions are clear. What is the bone...what is the meat?

 

[preachinjesus]

What a complicated subject. There's a pretty big reading list out there to help with the topic, but we can talk about that later.

As a rule the Trinity is a beautiful example of mutual submission within the Godhead. One of the firm theological distinctions between the members of the Trinity that each is a unique Person possessing equal divinity and essence. While they are equal in Person and divinity there is willful subdorination within the Persons of the Trinity.

No member "wields more power" than the others. Willful subordination isn't about power of one over the others.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

So, if a person is "responding to Christ" they are responding to the Spirit of Christ", which means Holy Spirit. The persons within the Godhead will not work contrary to each other.

However, responding to "Christ" and responding to the Gospel of Jesus Christ are two different things.

I believe a person must have God, Holy Spirit intervening in their lives to respond unto salvation to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

peace to youraying:

I do agree with this—but as far as the debate about pre-faith regeneration (or being born again preceding faith), I will admit there are many good scholars who support it with “interruptive” biblical evidence. But I personally think it comes down to how the term “regeneration” is being used. Does regeneration include the “drawing” of Jn 6:44, 65; or the God given ability to become spiritually alive (Eph 2:5) and heed the spoken word (Acts 16:14)? Admittedly, b/c of the depravity of men (Eph 2:1-3), the foolishness of God’s Word to the natural man (2 Cor 2:14) & man’s inability to seek after God (Rom 3:1-19)—(not to mention the spiritual deadness of the natural man, Eph 2:5)---something has to supernaturally happen b4 one can have faith or even recognize their state of sinfulness & need for a Savior. But is this something regeneration? Only if all of the Holy Spirit’s pre-faith activities can be lumped together under this one term. So if one is using regeneration this way (as proponents of the monergistic view of regeneration seem to do)—then it could be acceptable to say regeneration comes before faith. But one has to ask—are we truly & completely regenerated without faith? Not if one is using the term like K Keathley who defines it as “the act of God whereby the Holy Spirit imparts eternal life to the believer.” If eternal life is anywhere in the definition of regeneration—then it cannot precede faith—b/c without faith there is no eternal life (cf Jn 3:15; 1 Jn 5:11-12). While a lot more could (& honestly needs) to be said—the question of pre-faith regeneration really comes down to how the term regeneration (or being born again) is being used.

 

[Jarthur001]

On the roles and relations of the Trinitarian Persons of the Eternal Godhead
Dr Bruce Ware says.....they are Equal in Essence, Distinct in Function MP3..


Worth your time...

 

[Winman]

I do agree with this—but as far as the debate about pre-faith regeneration (or being born again preceding faith), I will admit there are many good scholars who support it with “interruptive” biblical evidence. But I personally think it comes down to how the term “regeneration” is being used. Does regeneration include the “drawing” of Jn 6:44, 65; or the God given ability to become spiritually alive (Eph 2:5) and heed the spoken word (Acts 16:14)? Admittedly, b/c of the depravity of men (Eph 2:1-3), the foolishness of God’s Word to the natural man (2 Cor 2:14) & man’s inability to seek after God (Rom 3:1-19)—(not to mention the spiritual deadness of the natural man, Eph 2:5)---something has to supernaturally happen b4 one can have faith or even recognize their state of sinfulness & need for a Savior. But is this something regeneration? Only if all of the Holy Spirit’s pre-faith activities can be lumped together under this one term. So if one is using regeneration this way (as proponents of the monergistic view of regeneration seem to do)—then it could be acceptable to say regeneration comes before faith. But one has to ask—are we truly & completely regenerated without faith? Not if one is using the term like K Keathley who defines it as “the act of God whereby the Holy Spirit imparts eternal life to the believer.” If eternal life is anywhere in the definition of regeneration—then it cannot precede faith—b/c without faith there is no eternal life. While a lot more could (& honestly needs) to be said—the question of pre-faith regeneration really comes down to how the term regeneration (or being born again) is being used.

You are correct that regeneration or life follows faith, and there are many scriptures to support this. Those who believe regeneration precedes faith do not have a single verse in all of scripture to support it.

If you disagree with that, I challange anyone here to show a single verse that shows regeneration precedes faith.

What the scriptures teach is that the Holy Spirit enlightens a man, illuminates a man, convicts a man, reproves a man.

John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

All men have a conscience. By definition conscience means we can discern between good and evil and have an inclination toward what is good. Look it up in the dictionary and see for yourself. From the dictionary;

the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action: to follow the dictates of conscience.

Calvinism denies this, but the scriptures clearly show the unregenerate can be convicted by their conscience. John 8:9 shows that as well as many other verses of scripture (Gen 42:21, 1 Kings 17:18, Ecc 7:22, Rom 2:15...).

The Holy Spirit reproves a man.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Spirit, enlightens and illuminates a man.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

A person can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and brought to the point of repentance and yet turn away in unbelief. We have several examples in scripture. First we have Cain.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God gave Cain a chance to repent. Cain could have offered an acceptable sacrifice and God said he would accept it. It is hard to imagine Cain turning this down, but he chose to do so.

The rich young ruler could have given up his wealth and followed Jesus, but chose to turn away.

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

The young rich ruler could have been saved, and he knew exactly what he must do. But he chose his position, wealth, and fame over everlasting life. Just a few verses later we see Zacchaeus regarded everlasting life more than his earthly wealth.

Luke 19: 8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate are like a lifeless corpse than cannot respond to God, but the scriptures show otherwise. After Adam and Eve sinned, they were dead in sin, but they both responded and came to God when he called them.

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

As you can see, when the Lord called Adam, Adam was able to clearly hear and respond to God.

It may not have occured to anyone, but to say the unregenerate man cannot respond to God is also to teach that God is not able to speak to the dead. But Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

So, when Calvinism teaches the unregenerate man cannot respond to God, it is also limiting God's power, teaching that God does not have the power to speak to the dead.

Think about it.

 

[RAdam]

for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col 2:9

1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;
4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads. Rev 22

I don't know about rank, but I do believe that we'll only see one when we get there, not three.

Amen. I totally agree.

 

[ituttut]

Lately I've been reading on the BB that a certain member of the Trinity is powerless to do "x" unless another member does "y" first.

Is there an order of power amongst the Godhead, and Scripture to support it?

To me I find the Three are tied together, that is God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit. They all agree. In scripture I find the Trinity to be powerful within itself. The Three are tied together for we know that Good is three, just as Bad is also three. " And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken", Ecclesiastes 41:2.

However God the Word became flesh. It was the will of God that this be done. Being this is so we must accept the fact that, from my understanding, that the Godhead was broken by God Himself. We can see this in John 3:16.

My wife says supper is almost ready so have to cut short.
From the above we have a starting point as God has willingly weakened himself. We also know the outcome for Jesus Christ now sits beside His Father in heaven, and we can see how the three work together in I Corinthians 12:4-6, being tightly bound together. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."