Extremely strict colleges...your thoughts?

[freeatlast]

OK, let's make it a "lower-case L" legalism...maybe say, "a rules-bound approach to Christian living." It would seem to me that many of these rules are simply leftovers from cultural taboos, or "pet sins" of generations gone by. By no means all...but some. In the strict sense of "do this to be saved" legalism, you're right--this isn't the case. But having a life defined by restrictive, "Good Christians don't do this, or this, or this, or this..." seems to be a grace-killing kind of approach to me.

And frankly, some of the rules just seem to be in place to hold sway over the kids (the doctor/campus nurse being the best examples).

I guess my point is, Is it really healthy to go through a 22 year-old's closet and car, looking for Chris Tomlin 'contraband?' Are we raising a healthy 21 year-old when we tell them that going to a movie is as damaging as assaulting another person? Is it healthy to regiment a 22 year-old to the point of telling them when they can turn a light on?

I'm really interested in the "military" angle. Obviously, there's a very good reason for the strict discipline and structure at a military academy. But is there the same need for such discipline at a Christian college?

And in some ways, I would contend the Christian college is more strict--along the lines of moral behavior outside the walls of the campus--or what you listen to, etc.

And one other clarification: I'm not saying we should throw all the rules out...or that many don't have validity.

You really did not answer my question although you did give some reasons why you do not like the rules. So let me ask this;

How is rules in a college grace-killing? Are you saying that grace means no rules? Or rules that do not fit a certain criteria?

And lastly what harm do these rules cause? In other words how do they keep the child of God from being what he is suppose to be doing? Living godly. For instance how is having a lights out rule hindering a person in their calling to live godly?

 

[Jerome]

From the college's student handbook:

HEALTH SERVICES

Emergencies
Students having emergency medical situations are taken to Mercy North Urgent Care, Iowa Lutheran Hospital, or Mercy Hospital in Des Moines.

Insurance
Health and accident insurance is required of all students taking more than six credit hours. A policy is available through the college. Students who are adequately covered by another policy must sign a waiver before the first day of classes, or they will be insured on the policy made available by the college and have the premium charged to their accounts.

School Nurse
A registered nurse is available on campus from 8:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Monday through Friday, at her office in the Convocation Building. For emergencies, she may be reached at home or via her mobile phone. If the nurse is not available, the student should contact the RA, the Dean of Women, or the Dean of Men. Situations requiring a doctor’s attention will be directed to a clinic of local doctors.

Procedures
Absence due to illness or other medical reasons must be reported to the college nurse between 5:00 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. on each day that class is missed. No absences for illness will be approved if a student does not report to the college nurse. This applies to all students. An illness excuse form, obtained in the nurse’s office, must be presented to the professors no later
than two class days following the student’s return to class. Excuse forms will not be issued later than one week after returning to classes and/or chapel.

Rbell's translation:

Students are required to use the School Nurse for medical issues--or the college-approved local doctors

especially the requirement that you MUST see their doctors

 

[freeatlast]

From the college's student handbook:
From the college's student handbook:

Quote:
HEALTH SERVICES

Emergencies
Students having emergency medical situations are taken to Mercy North Urgent Care, Iowa Lutheran Hospital, or Mercy Hospital in Des Moines.

Insurance
Health and accident insurance is required of all students taking more than six credit hours. A policy is available through the college. Students who are adequately covered by another policy must sign a waiver before the first day of classes, or they will be insured on the policy made available by the college and have the premium charged to their accounts.

School Nurse
A registered nurse is available on campus from 8:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Monday through Friday, at her office in the Convocation Building. For emergencies, she may be reached at home or via her mobile phone. If the nurse is not available, the student should contact the RA, the Dean of
Women, or the Dean of Men. Situations requiring a doctor’s attention will be directed to a clinic of local doctors.

Procedures
Absence due to illness or other medical reasons must be reported to the college nurse between 5:00 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. on each day that class is missed. No absences for illness will be approved if a student does not report to the college nurse. This applies to all students. An illness excuse form, obtained in the nurse’s office, must be presented to the professors no later
than two class days following the student’s return to class. Excuse forms will not be issued later than one week after returning to classes and/or chapel.
Rbell's translation:


Quote:
Students are required to use the School Nurse for medical issues--or the college-approved local doctors
Quote:
especially the requirement that you MUST see their doctors

Rbell's translation:

If that is the case then it looks like someone outright lied.

 

[Luke2427]

So, I was reading a catalogue for a "Baptist Bible College" on an unrelated thread.

It was Faith Baptist Bible College: http://www.faith.edu

I had forgotten just how entrenched in rules some of these schools are.

• So...they search your dorm room and car, looking for CCM?
• They do surprise room inspections, and bust you for not making your bed?
• You're not allowed to turn on an overhead light in your room after curfew?
• Attending a movie is considered as serious a violation as assault and battery? (seriously??)
• Gotees are taboo--but moustaches are OK?
• Five classifications of attire, each with specific hours and buildings?
• Students are required to use the School Nurse for medical issues--or the college-approved local doctors??
• You cannot travel out-of-town without the Resident Assistant's approval?

Wow. If the goal is to treat 22 year-olds like junior high students, then I guess success has been acheived. I know that there must be guidelines...and that attendance at a Christian college is a privilege, not a right. But quite frankly, some of the rules put forth are onerous at best, and disturbing/creepy at worst.

Of course, I understand that folks are entering into this willingly (either that, or they're not bright enough to bother to look before they leap). But as a parent, I would hope that I wouldn't feel the need to send my kid to a place so frought with legalism that they do not learn to function in society.

Just MHO.

My college was actually stricter. You had to do all of these things plus...

You could only spend a couple of hours a day with your girl friend.
You could not leave the campus at all without signing out and signing in when you returned.
Everyone was to be in the dorms by 9:30. Lights out by 11.
No mustaches or facial hair of any kind were permitted.


It's this kind of crud that is really hurting the Gospel witness in this country.

These freakish standards-obsessed movements hurt all of us.
They are popish (pope-ish) and unbiblical and they don't care.

 

[Luke2427]

Those kinds of rules are fundamentally problematic. They don't promote an atmosphere of questioning and pushing back. They instead promote a culture of legalism and regurgitation.

I attended one and you are right. This is exactly what the school put out- little automatons who were carbon copies of the staff.

Those who did not become automatons became resentful toward fundamentalism and many went so far that they despised church and anything to do with it.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Anyone who hasn't learned self-control by college age will never learn it. However, those rules are way over the top and absolutely ridiculous. I was told that Bob Jones U wouldn't allow inter-racial dating among the students. Personally, I call that bigotry and discrimination. I have no idea if that rule still stands since it was 50 years ago.

You should have seen me my first year in Bible college. I got booted because I couldn't and wouldn't keep rules that were far less restrictive than those mentioned. Then I went in the army and got straightened out by a DI and a desire to learn how to live when I went to a much harder college of Viet Nam.

It's harder to learn self-control and self discipline when you are older but it can be done.

Whenever I broke a bone (choose one, I've probably broken it), they put a cast on it that restricted everything I could do with it. The reason so my bone could mend and become strong enough to be able to stand alone. Some kids need strong rules to act as a cast.

 

[rbell]

If that is the case then it looks like someone outright lied.

It was late, and apparently I mis-read the quote. I apologize for doing so.

Please explain your "lying" comment.

 

[John of Japan]

Okay, since I am a product of strict fundamentalist schools, according to the good folk on this thread so far: apparently I’m an automaton, I’m a legalist, I simply “regurgitate” what I was taught instead of thinking for myself, at college I lived in a “stone room with daily penance,” I was not taught to “hang around” with “real sinners” like Jesus did (the yakuza gangster coming to my church would be surprised to hear that), I was “dehumanized” by the rules I obeyed, and I became one of a group of “little automatons who were carbon copies of the staff.” Oh yes, and my wife (a graduate of a different strict fundamentalist school), not to mention my three sisters, may have been sent there because of her “questionable reputation.”

Why is it that as soon as the subject of fundamentalist standards comes up, the knives come out? To judge by the comments on this thread by non-fundamentalists, we are the worst Christians ever. But that’s okay. As my fundamentalist father used to say, “I’d rather be criticized for my position than for my disposition.” And frankly, I'm currently judging some of you critics on this thread for your lousy dispositions. :saint:

 

[Luke2427]

You should have seen me my first year in Bible college. I got booted because I couldn't and wouldn't keep rules that were far less restrictive than those mentioned. Then I went in the army and got straightened out by a DI and a desire to learn how to live when I went to a much harder college of Viet Nam.

It's harder to learn self-control and self discipline when you are older but it can be done.

Whenever I broke a bone (choose one, I've probably broken it), they put a cast on it that restricted everything I could do with it. The reason so my bone could mend and become strong enough to be able to stand alone. Some kids need strong rules to act as a cast.

I agree with that and confess that it is perfectly valid. And I am not trying to be argumentative here, either.

But we need to also recognize along with this that these kinds of rules are stifling to certain personalities too. The army literally is making automatons. There is no individuality in a troop. The army does not want a bunch of individuals with individual goals and individual mindsets. They want a bunch of guys who are NOT free thinkers but who simply do as they are told.

That should not be the primary goal of a seminary. God made each one of us who are having this very conversation differently. We think differently, we have different temperaments, different likes and dislikes, and God intends to use those traits.

Peter and John were not alike at all. But God used them both.

My college suffocated individuality and free thinking and strong wills. And the weak were the only ones who truly got educated there because they were the only ones who did not buck against the pillows over our faces.

 

[Luke2427]

Okay, since I am a product of strict fundamentalist schools, according to the good folk on this thread so far: apparently I’m an automaton, I’m a legalist, I simply “regurgitate” what I was taught instead of thinking for myself, at college I lived in a “stone room with daily penance,” I was not taught to “hang around” with “real sinners” like Jesus did (the yakuza gangster coming to my church would be surprised to hear that), I was “dehumanized” by the rules I obeyed, and I became one of a group of “little automatons who were carbon copies of the staff.” Oh yes, and my wife (a graduate of a different strict fundamentalist school), not to mention my three sisters, may have been sent there because of her “questionable reputation.”

Why is it that as soon as the subject of fundamentalist standards comes up, the knives come out? To judge by the comments on this thread by non-fundamentalists, we are the worst Christians ever. But that’s okay. As my fundamentalist father used to say, “I’d rather be criticized for my position than for my disposition.” And frankly, I'm currently judging some of you critics on this thread for your lousy dispositions. :saint:

That's very funny! Good job John.

Nobody said all of these things were true for everybody who attended one of these bible bootcamps. We are saying it is the tendency. You and yours may have escaped it. Many thousands, no doubt, do.

But many more become disillusioned with fundamentalism and quit the ministry bitterly or turn out to be little automatons who just pretty well are carbon copies of their professors.

That's my educated opinion based on having attended one of these silly colleges of which is in question on this thread and observing fundamentalists around the country.

 

[Salty]

...But we need to also recognize along with this that these kinds of rules are stifling to certain personalities too. The army literally is making automatons. There is no individuality in a troop. The army does not want a bunch of individuals with individual goals and individual mindsets. They want a bunch of guys who are NOT free thinkers but who simply do as they are told. ...

Disagree - The army does encourage individuality,and self thinking, yet we must work as a team, which means at time, we must obey lawful orders for the good of the unit. From the day you join the Army, when there are two or more troops, one is always in charge - ie the ranking individual is responsible; even if he is a Private.

Likewise, a Christian college student is taught to think for himself. No more of - but my pastor says this - rather, how do you interpret the scripture.
eg - is the TV of the Devil or a blessing? Yes, there are times the TV can be a blessing, yet if it is a stumbling block to a new Christian, we need to be mature enough to do without a certain program. As I said before, this takes dedication and commitment.

 

[John of Japan]

That's very funny! Good job John.

Nobody said all of these things were true for everybody who attended one of these bible bootcamps. We are saying it is the tendency. You and yours may have escaped it. Many thousands, no doubt, do.

But many more become disillusioned with fundamentalism and quit the ministry bitterly or turn out to be little automatons who just pretty well are carbon copies of their professors.

That's my educated opinion based on having attended one of these silly colleges of which is in question on this thread and observing fundamentalists around the country.

Admittedly there are fundamentalists who have turned out to be automatons. However, in my experience they usually grow out of it as they walk with the Lord.

Again, it is true that there are bitter ex-fundamentalists. However, I usually take criticism from ex-fundamentalists with a grain of salt. In my experience, no matter what the movement is, people who leave a movement become critical towards it. I know I became critical towards the "Up With People" movement when as a teen I quit my gig as a guitarist with their local group. Still don't have a good opinion of the group.

I have an uncle who used to be a fundamentalist pastor. When he left the movement he split his church, changed everything from his Bible version to his church government (to elder rule), cut off from friends of a lifetime, and ended up with a group that called themselves "free churches," supposedly free from legalism. I asked him one day what they did at their pastors' meetings, and he said wryly, "We sit around criticizing the groups we've left." :smilewinkgrin:

So my point is, to you who used to be fundamentalists: don't be bitter, don't be critical, just get on with the life God has given you. Witness for Christ, live for Him, and leave us fundamenalists up to Him. He is well able to give us what we deserve! :saint:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Okay, since I am a product of strict fundamentalist schools, according to the good folk on this thread so far: apparently I’m an automaton, I’m a legalist, I simply “regurgitate” what I was taught instead of thinking for myself, at college I lived in a “stone room with daily penance,” I was not taught to “hang around” with “real sinners” like Jesus did (the yakuza gangster coming to my church would be surprised to hear that), I was “dehumanized” by the rules I obeyed, and I became one of a group of “little automatons who were carbon copies of the staff.” Oh yes, and my wife (a graduate of a different strict fundamentalist school), not to mention my three sisters, may have been sent there because of her “questionable reputation.”

Kudos from another guy whose life was ruined and effectiveness for God destroyed because I went to one of those schools. My dear wife's pre-college reputation is also in doubt because she went to the same place.

 

[Salty]

Kudos from another guy whose life was ruined and effectiveness for God destroyed because I went to one of those schools. My dear wife's pre-college reputation is also in doubt because she went to the same place.

Then I shall pray for you my good brother.

My (bio) brother went to Bob Jones - I once told him if I could make it thur the Army, I could make it thur BJU. He replied "many vets also said that, and still failed"

 

[rbell]

Thanks for some good discussion, folks.

My apologies if I was too harsh in my line of thinking and questioning. I do question the methodologies of many of these schools--but I know that there are some Godly people who attend here, and I'm sure there are good intentions for so many who run these schools.

Again, I apologize for mis-reading the doctor/nurse issue. I would very much like a clarification from freeatlast on the "lying" comment--I want to make sure I accurately understand him before commenting further.

 

[John of Japan]

Kudos from another guy whose life was ruined and effectiveness for God destroyed because I went to one of those schools. My dear wife's pre-college reputation is also in doubt because she went to the same place.

One thing that is positive and amazing about our IFB schools is how many thousands of missionaries like you and me have been called and/or inspired at college, and have gone out to the ends of the earth for the cause of Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

That's very funny! Good job John.

Nobody said all of these things were true for everybody who attended one of these bible bootcamps. We are saying it is the tendency. You and yours may have escaped it. Many thousands, no doubt, do.

But many more become disillusioned with fundamentalism and quit the ministry bitterly or turn out to be little automatons who just pretty well are carbon copies of their professors.

That's my educated opinion based on having attended one of these silly colleges of which is in question on this thread and observing fundamentalists around the country.

You know, I've been thinking about this and am wondering about something. According to you, the numbers who come out okay from a strict college are "many thousands," but those who are ruined are "many more" than "many thousands." How do you come by these figures? What are the exact statistics? Who did the survey? Or is this simply your completely unsupported opinion?

 

[Jerome]

Rbell's translation:

You cannot travel out-of-town without the Resident Assistant's approval

The handbook actually says that dorm students are "free to come and go from the campus as they please," but overnight absences from campus require that a form be submitted to one's RA.

 

[rbell]

Rbell's translation:


The handbook actually says that dorm students are "free to come and go from the campus as they please," but overnight absences from campus require that a form be submitted to one's RA.

Sorry, I stand by my "translation," as you put it.

There are numerous events that one would be expected to attend, even outside the scope of overnight. And there were the overnight scenarios (some of which I completely understand).

What I wrote is accurate. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Mapipe]

Big, big thumbs up.

Was Jesus 18 years old at the time?