You are right percho. We can see some desire to inherit the earth, and not the heavenlies. Isn't this what the Catholic, and so many protestants, and Baptists believe? Do they not cleave to Old Testament salvation as shown in Acts, up until Chapter 10?
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lWhen did the Old Testament end?
- Thread starter ituttut
- Start date
Does this mean after chapter 10 no one is meek?
convicted1
Guest
:thumbs::jesus::thumbs:
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again. How does the literalist explain this seeming discrepancy?:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mt 5:18
....ye also were made dead to the law........we have been discharged from the law..... Ro 7:4,6
....the old covenant......is done away..... 2 Cor 3:14
....having abolished ......the law of commandments contained in ordinances....... Eph 2:15
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Take note, the above was written AFTER the cross, and the first covenant had not quite vanished away yet, it was nigh unto it, but not quite yet. The two covenants actually overlapped during 'that generation', although Christ did expressly say, “The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth violently into it” [Lu 16:16], He did not say the covenant had ended at John. I believe the covenant was fulfilled with the words “It is finished”, and 'all things that were written' were realized with the destruction of Jerusalem, when the wrath came to the uttermost upon those unbelieving Jews, 'who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out the Christians, and pleased not God, and were contrary to all men', and through the destruction wrought He 'severed the wicked from among the righteous and gathered out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity'.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21
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Christ fulfilled the Law hence we don't live under it any more
I say ditto to what kyredneck said above. I’ll just add.
This verse is not really understandable until you understand that the reference to “heaven and earth” is not a reference to the cosmos, but to the temple/old covenant.
When the temple was destroyed and the Old Covenant came to its complete end in 70 AD the old heaven and earth passed away. The new heaven and new earth was the New Covenant.
Just think about it—if not the least letter of the law can pass away until its all fulfilled—then you are saying here that Christ’s sacrifice is worthless to us because you are saying the Law is still in effect today. That would be in direct contradiction to the words of Christ and the apostles.
Obviously, you wouldn’t tell someone they go to heaven by keeping the Mosaic Law today—we go through accepting Christ therefore by looking no further we know part of the Law has passed away hence all of it has passed away (of course you could say there are no more sacrifices by the high priest or Lavitical marriages today) . This makes good on Christ’s words that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled and has therefore passed into history. Hence God’s Old Testament promises have all been fulfilled.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Why thank you Mel!
I say ditto to what kyredneck said above. I’ll just add.
This verse is not really understandable until you understand that the reference to “heaven and earth” is not a reference to the cosmos, but to the temple/old covenant.
When the temple was destroyed and the Old Covenant came to its complete end in 70 AD the old heaven and earth passed away. The new heaven and new earth was the New Covenant.
Just think about it—if not the least letter of the law can pass away until its all fulfilled—then you are saying here that Christ’s sacrifice is worthless to us because you are saying the Law is still in effect today. That would be in direct contradiction to the words of Christ and the apostles.
Obviously, you wouldn’t tell someone they go to heaven by keeping the Mosaic Law today—we go through accepting Christ therefore by looking no further we know part of the Law has passed away hence all of it has passed away (of course you could say there are no more sacrifices by the high priest or Lavitical marriages today) . This makes good on Christ’s words that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled and has therefore passed into history. Hence God’s Old Testament promises have all been fulfilled.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Why thank you Mel!
....and I say ditto right back to you. Good articulation.
The heaven and earth of the old covenant has been rolled up like a cloak; changed like a garment:
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail. Heb 1
The heaven and the earth of the old covenant has been removed:
26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12
The heaven and earth of the old covenant has been removed, and we are new creations of the new heaven and new earth of the new covenant. But the sad truth is that this interpretation simply is not exciting or sensational enough to suit the taste of most these days
I believe it is there for us to see.
While I do believe the Old Testament ended in the time of the Apostles, I also believe that anyone who believe in their heart that our risen Lord Jesus Christ was sent into the world, that to believe in Him you will be saved; But could that salvation be of an earthly inheritance as shown in the Old Testament?
That said, we must still determine that it did come to an end at some point. And when was it, as it was phased out. I believe scripture shows us when this did happen. Anyone see in scripture when it very likely happened?
While I do believe the Old Testament ended in the time of the Apostles, I also believe that anyone who believe in their heart that our risen Lord Jesus Christ was sent into the world, that to believe in Him you will be saved; But could that salvation be of an earthly inheritance as shown in the Old Testament?
That said, we must still determine that it did come to an end at some point. And when was it, as it was phased out. I believe scripture shows us when this did happen. Anyone see in scripture when it very likely happened?
With the destruction of the temple and termination of the sacrifices AD70. Probably the closest scripture you will find to that event is:
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her. And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee; and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:20-24
But doesn't scripture indicate that Temple was dead a year after Pentecost?
That's a new one on me. Show me please?
"That this is no vague and unmeaning threat is evident from the distinct and definite terms in which it is announced. Everything points to an approaching crisis in the history of the nation, when God would inflict judgment upon His rebellious people. 'The day, was coming - 'the day that shall burn as a furnace;, 'the great and terrible day of the Lord., That this 'day' refers to a certain period, and a specific event, does not admit of question. It had already been foretold in precisely the same words by the Prophet Joel (ii. 31): 'The great and terrible day of the Lord;, and we shall meet with a distinct reference to it in the address of the Apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts ii. 20). But the period is further more precisely defined by the remarkable statement of Malachi in chap. iv. 5: 'Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord.' The explicit declaration of our Lord that the predicted Elijah was no other than His own forerunner, John the Baptist (Matt. xi. 14), enables us to determine the time and the event referred to as 'the great and terrible day of the Lord., It must be sought at no great distance from the period of John the Baptist. That is to say, the allusion is to the judgment of the Jewish nation, when their city and temple were destroyed, and the entire fabric of the Mosaic polity was dissolved." James Stuart Russell, 'The Parousia'
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/images/1878_russell_parousia/russell_parousia_intro.html
......and actually, technically, Amy is right:
50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; Mt 27
....although God in His longsuffering, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, allowed the two covenants to coexist for forty years, a generation, giving the Jews time to repent, but she would not.
50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; Mt 27
....although God in His longsuffering, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, allowed the two covenants to coexist for forty years, a generation, giving the Jews time to repent, but she would not.
freeatlast
New Member
When you say Old Testament it can be confusing as to the meaning. If you mean the Old Covenant then one might say that it ended by replacing it with the new as far as sacrifices and ceremonies. However if by Old testament you mean all that is written there in and all the covenants within the Old testament then the OT has not come to an end. There are still things that must be fulfilled under the Old. Even Jesus said this;
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Well heaven nor earth has passed and all is not fulfilled.
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From post #25:
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again. How does the literalist explain this seeming discrepancy?:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mt 5:18
....ye also were made dead to the law........we have been discharged from the law..... Ro 7:4,6
....the old covenant......is done away..... 2 Cor 3:14
....having abolished ......the law of commandments contained in ordinances....... Eph 2:15
freeatlast
New Member
There is no discrepancy. When scripture is kept in context it becomes clear. However those passages you gave are being taken out of context.
The Romans passage reads as follows;
7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Those passages are not speaking against what the Lord said. That is how the liberal and rebellious would hold them ending up with rejecting parts of the bible to hold to their own self made religion.
Those passages are dealing with Jews and telling them that they are no longer held captive by the law, but are free to serve Christ in spirit instead of serving the law by the letter. Neither verse suggests that because of the New covenant has arrived that the First or Old covenant will not be fulfilled (done away with) as God promised.
2Cor 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
The passage does not read as you have posted. The writer is explaining how the Jews are blinded by the Law because of their hard hearts. If they had hearts of flesh instead of stone when the light of Messiah was shone forth they would have seen. It is not a passage suggesting that the words of the Lord are incorrect as the liberals would have us believe.
Eph 2:154Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Again you have perverted the scriptures by changing what they say. The passage is saying that commandments caused war or enmity instead of peace, but the new man in Christ is at peace with God and himself. The liberal always seeks to twist scripture and try and make it look like it is at war with itself, but the true know that the word always is in harmony with itself.
Good passages thanks for giving them as they prove what I said.
If there's any perversion done to the scriptures it's been done here in this post of yours. Is your view of the scriptures so twisted and so perverted and so onerous and so liberal that you believe we are still yet are under the ministration of death and condemnation and not under the ministration of righteousness? Are you so twisted and so perverted and so onerous and so liberal in your view of the scriptures as to believe that we're still under the covenant of the letter that kills and not under the new covenant of the spirit that gives life? Is your take on God's word so twisted and so perverted and so onerous and so liberal that you will actually dispute that word and say that the ministration of death and condemnation has not passed away but remains in effect? Are you so twisted and so perverted and so onerous and so liberal in your regard to Holy Writ that you say that the old covenant has not been done away in Christ?:
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look stedfastly upon the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which glory was passing away:
8 how shall not rather the ministration of the spirit be with glory?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation hath glory, much rather doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For verily that which hath been made glorious hath not been made glorious in this respect, by reason of the glory that surpasseth.
11 For if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.
12 Having therefore such a hope, we use great boldness of speech,
13 and are not as Moses, who put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look stedfastly on the end of that which was passing away:
14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ.
15 But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart.
16 But whensoever it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit. 2 Cor 3
freeatlast
New Member
This is what happens when you a liberal bent on destroying truth. I never said we are under the law or the OT. I simply replied to the OP as to if it has ended. It has not ended. There are still many things given in the OT that must come about. So is it not YOU who are "perverted and so onerous and so liberal" and cannot stand the truth?