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Poll on Doctrines of Grace and Free Will
- Thread starter CF1
- Start date
- Status
:thumbs: Absolutely :thumbs:
Where do we find this? Show me where it says that Adam could have chosen otherwise. Many Calvinists believe that Adam did have a free will before the fall. He may have. But I wonder if you can make a case for it. What we know is that man does not have a free will after the fall.
Show me where the Bible says that sinners, unregenerate people can choose to live for Christ as an act of their own volition. They cannot do it.
Excellent. I was just about to say this very thing but not as well as you have said it here. Thanks.
Tom Butler
New Member
Tom Butler said:
You are very kind.
That is why no lost sinner can ever say at the judgment, "well, I wanted to be saved, but since I'm not one of the elect, I couldn't."
His condemnation is not that he could not, but that he would not.
Very true.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: to you Jim
Could somebody venture to explain what a mixture of Grace and Free Will is? I cant consieve of it. thanks.
Good question. I think people "Accept a Mixture of Grace and Free Will" for a variety of reasons:
1. They have not had time to do research into the different views so anything sounds fine.
2. They have been discouraged by others to do research into the views because others have said its a contentious argument.
3. They have been turned off by prideful people on either or both ends of the spectrum and they say Love is greater than being right on this point, so they are fine with a mixture, in order to preserve unity and love.
4. Some are ok with agreeing with different views on different days or in different hours of the same day because they explain their position by saying with Romans "how unsearchable" are God's ways.
5. They lack the clarity on how one can and should interpret and understand verses that seem to contractict each other without a lot of research and thought.
6. They are convinced from the Bible that Calvinism is wrong and Free Will is right, but they accept that Grace exists as well.
7. They are convinced from the Bible that Free Will is wrong and Calvinism is right, but they accept that Free Will exists as well.
This prompts me to set up another poll asking the question:
What is the single biggest reason so many people remain non-Calvinist/Reformed/etc?
This posts' poll shows that 66% of the voters in this post are 4 or 5 point Calvinistic, so they have gone through the struggle to become convinced this way. So this might be a good forum to ask such a question. At some point those who are convinced must wonder or have an opinion on why others are not yet convinced.
The reasons above seem like some of the reasons. What are other reasons? How would you group or summarize the reasons to get a meaningful poll?
Once I have more reasons maybe I'll set up another poll to see what people think.
Last edited by a moderator:
Debby in Philly
Active Member
My oversimplified belief is this: Yes, God knows who will wind up on each side in the end, but we don't. So we should teach everyone the Gospel, and give them an opportunity to respond. And, btw, stop wasting time arguing about such matters. "Go therefore....."
Old Union Brother
New Member
amen :applause::applause::applause:
glfredrick
New Member
Sometimes wish we had "like" buttons like Facebook.
Well said. My vote was for the point that we can't summarize the Bible so simply. I find fault in much of the way the TULIP is held so dearly by many, yet I hold many of the same theological tenets. I find fault in the way that so many hold so dearly human free will, which I cannot find expressed in just that way in Scripture.
I agree that Adam had free will, he exercised it (once) and since, we are ever since born slaves without the same freedom to exercise our will in a salvific way. If this is best expressed in the term total depravity, so be it, but i believe that there are better ways to say that, that do not give a wrong impression.
I agree that we are all born dead in our sin and trespasses and that no action of human will or work will gain us one iota of grace from God. Spiritually dead people don't do things to earn merit, and the biblical definition of grace is "unmerited favor" which, to me at least, precludes the exercise of our wills to "come to God" in any form or fashion.
I agree that we still have some exercise of our will -- largely in areas of morality -- but that God will hold us culpable for our sin(s) even if committed in ignorance. I do not agree that the expression of our will, however sincerely held, will make the slightest difference in our salvation, for we are not capable of justifying ourselves, nor can we regenerate ourselves, adopt ourselves, seal ourselves, elect ourselves, effectually call ourselves, or glorify ourselves, those are all the sole works of God. We can participate in our sanctification, in our faith and repentance, and in our perseverance, but those three things alone do not make up the totality of salvation.
I believe that Christ died for the sins of "the whole world" (that's what the Bible says!) but that His blood will only be effective for those who are actually born again from above (all the component parts of salvation to be precise). If it was/is, then we would have to hold to a form of universalism, and that is heretical no matter how one interprets it. I do not hold to limited atonement as the first word, simply because that is how it works out pragmatically in the end. We are not free to "summarize" God in ways that He does not reveal to us in the Word.
I agree that God elects sinners to salvation, but election is not the end of the process. It is merely the beginning point. I also hold that election has become a "weasel word" these days, with people actually fighting against what the Bible has to say about this issue. Election is through and through the Scriptures, from the first chapter until the last. It is unavoidable! Election is equated with "salvation" in the minds of many, but election is not salvation, it is election -- period. With this comes the added baggage of we (ignorant) humans trying to number the elect, as if we actually can know what is known only to God! When I find some folks getting upset about election it is almost assured that I will also find them making off-the-wall claims about people who hold to that doctrine, for the most part that by our holding this very biblical doctrine WE are somehow limiting the number of people that will gain eternity. That is (to me, at least) akin to accusing the brethren of blatant sin, but such is not the case, and it is the "accusing" that is the true sin (Rev 12:10)
I find perseverance of the "saints" in the Scriptures. It is predicated on God's sovereign power and authority to hold those who are His against all odds and all enemies, including us. I also find serious warning passages against straying from the faith, adopting heretical beliefs, and/or preaching a false gospel. Here is one of the places where the differences between "religious zeal for God" and a "re-born Spirit indwelt relationship" to be most magnified. Those coming to Christ by their own wills, bowing before Him, worshiping Him for all their days, etc., but who have never been born anew are, at the end of their days, lost still. Though very religious and very zealous for Christ, doing all things in His name (we're reminded of Mat 7:21-22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? ) they are not His until HE makes then His! Those who are His are sure, preserved, and held by Him until the end.
glfredrick,
Thanks for your excellent post. I agree that the TULIP acrostic is oversimplified, lacks clarity, and causes many to hesitate on whether or not they can agree with it. I would guess that most who agree to TULIP only do so after clarifying their thoughts on the many aspects of how to understand it.
Clarity is often needed to communicate, understand, and make progress together.
I considered adding a category called:
"Clarified Calvinism" - a type of Calvinism where you have clarity in thoughts, rather than a potential for too many misinterpretations.
Thanks for your excellent post. I agree that the TULIP acrostic is oversimplified, lacks clarity, and causes many to hesitate on whether or not they can agree with it. I would guess that most who agree to TULIP only do so after clarifying their thoughts on the many aspects of how to understand it.
Clarity is often needed to communicate, understand, and make progress together.
I considered adding a category called:
"Clarified Calvinism" - a type of Calvinism where you have clarity in thoughts, rather than a potential for too many misinterpretations.
glfredrick
New Member
The reasons I feel the need to clarify are, (1) the considerable baggage attached to the term "Calvinism" most of which is incorrect by the ones doing the attaching (2) God's revelation is not simplistic (which is why we're still debating these points almost 2000 years later!) but it is "simple" in that we can read plainly and understand what it says (3) there is too much "reading between the lines" to fulfill certain theological vantage points that are not so easily expressed in Scripture, but that can be reasoned if certain verses are "cherry picked" and applied out of context, and (4) most of the real work of the church down through the ages has happened under the watch of those who held to a high view of God's sovereignty, and for good reason -- any lessor view, no matter how attractive, humanly speaking, denigrates God to the point where a gross violation of the first and supreme commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me..."
After that, we need to find a way to reconcile true human freedom of will (in the extent that it is capable of acting) with the sovereignty of Almighty God, who WILL do what it is that He wills no matter if we like it, participate with it, follow in it, preach and teach it, or not.
Now, on to a piece of personal testimony... I was one that an Arminian would have suggested would enter heaven "kicking and screaming." I hated the idea of God initially, and eventually put even hatred of God behind me for pure atheism (in order to hate God, one must still believe that there is a God -- and after time, I simply decided that there really was no God at all).
No one "convinced" me to accept Christ. I never talked to a single person face-to-face, nor did I ever read the Bible, a tract, or any other commonly used method of evangelism. I did not darken the door of a church, and I planned to never do so again unless forced to by some wedding or funeral. I was one of the "hard cases" that would just as well rip off the church, figure out how to de-frock a clergy, or other things as bad or worse. I took pleasure in figuring out how to spoil life for God's (stupid) followers and I was rather good at it... Some left, others questioned their faith after I got done with them. It was rather easy pickin's as most of the so-called Christians that I knew during that time really had no clue what they really believed, why, or how it worked.
It was to that man that God revealed Himself, and in such a was as to both gain my attention and also to melt my ever-so-hard heart, and it was child's play for Him! He knew just how to push my buttons... How to make what seemed to be coincidence turn to His advantage, for instance, giving the dial of a radio a spin and landing on a show where James Dobson was talking about the pain of loosing a child (the trigger point that caused me to hate God in the first place).
That doesn't just happen by accident, and it didn't happen because I was looking for God. I sure wasn't! But (oh, praise Him!) He was looking for me... I, and my family are now eternally grateful, and that not because I got all religious and joined a church. I didn't do that either -- at least not for over 2 years after God revealed Himself to me (still had little use for the church back then!). I'm still not "religious." I really don't give much care for religion at all. I'm not all that "holy" either, save for the true meaning of that term -- "set apart for God's use" -- that I am, fully and completely!
What I find when I read the Word is God's election on every page. God made Adam and revealed Himself to first man. God laid out His plan to Adam on the day Adam exercised his free will, sinned, and fell from grace. On that day, God said that He would send Messiah to crush the head of the evil one, and the rest, as they say, is history. God elected Noah and his family to carry the human race forward when all the rest of enslaved, sinful humanity was crushed beneath the waters. God elected Abram from all the peoples of the earth so that re-named Abraham could be the father of the family that would spawn the nation that would be the line of the promised Messiah.
From Abraham's family, God elected one son -- Issac -- to be the chosen line. From Issac's line, God chose Jacob, the younger, to be the carrier of the blessing. From the offspring of Jacob, God elected the line of Judah to be the carriers of the promise, but along the way, He also elected another family line to be the priests who would teach the people and hold them accountable to the revealed Word. God elected Moses and caused special circumstances to occur in that man's life so he could foreshadow the Messiah and lead God's people to the Promised Land. God elected Joshua -- Yeshua, the very name of Messiah to come -- as the leader who actually led God's elected people into Canaan.
Throughout the OT, God's election is seen as God worked His plan through history. The election never made sense to the people of that age, but it sure did once the story was told! Over and again, God elected this person or that -- often making no sense to the ones who thought it should be some other way -- and ultimately, from two separate lies of God's elected king over Israel, God elected, when the time was right, to send His Son, Jesus into the world, just like He promised to Adam way back when.
Then, Jesus came to those people that God elected, and as the Holy Spirit caused John to write, "they rejected their own..." With SALVATION walking amongst them, God's people could not see their Messiah because their "religion" said otherwise... So, that Messiah moved forward with the rest of the plan -- a plan that had ALWAYS been in existence -- to see God's elect from all peoples of the earth come to know that Messiah had come. To an elect handful of men, God entrusted the message of salvation, knowing that those most unlikely bunch of people would accomplish His will because He knows all things and never makes a mistake. They taught those of us who follow to preach the "good news" to the perishing, and to reap a harvest of the elect, who will go and do likewise until God elects to end history and start a new heaven and new earth.
Moral of this testimony/overview of Scripture?
Is your "religion" getting in the way of discovering Messiah? Sadly, for a great many people, I believe it is -- not arrogantly, nor with haughty spirit, but in all humility, realizing that God's grace is un-merited by any of my actions, my efforts, or my beliefs -- I merely plead with men to listen for that still small voice of the One True God and do what He says. For, that alone is your only hope, but that only hope will never be found as long as you are sufficient in your own ability to "choose God."
I'm no longer kicking and screaming against my Lord... He has me, and I worship Him for having me!
After that, we need to find a way to reconcile true human freedom of will (in the extent that it is capable of acting) with the sovereignty of Almighty God, who WILL do what it is that He wills no matter if we like it, participate with it, follow in it, preach and teach it, or not.
Now, on to a piece of personal testimony... I was one that an Arminian would have suggested would enter heaven "kicking and screaming." I hated the idea of God initially, and eventually put even hatred of God behind me for pure atheism (in order to hate God, one must still believe that there is a God -- and after time, I simply decided that there really was no God at all).
No one "convinced" me to accept Christ. I never talked to a single person face-to-face, nor did I ever read the Bible, a tract, or any other commonly used method of evangelism. I did not darken the door of a church, and I planned to never do so again unless forced to by some wedding or funeral. I was one of the "hard cases" that would just as well rip off the church, figure out how to de-frock a clergy, or other things as bad or worse. I took pleasure in figuring out how to spoil life for God's (stupid) followers and I was rather good at it... Some left, others questioned their faith after I got done with them. It was rather easy pickin's as most of the so-called Christians that I knew during that time really had no clue what they really believed, why, or how it worked.
It was to that man that God revealed Himself, and in such a was as to both gain my attention and also to melt my ever-so-hard heart, and it was child's play for Him! He knew just how to push my buttons... How to make what seemed to be coincidence turn to His advantage, for instance, giving the dial of a radio a spin and landing on a show where James Dobson was talking about the pain of loosing a child (the trigger point that caused me to hate God in the first place).
That doesn't just happen by accident, and it didn't happen because I was looking for God. I sure wasn't! But (oh, praise Him!) He was looking for me... I, and my family are now eternally grateful, and that not because I got all religious and joined a church. I didn't do that either -- at least not for over 2 years after God revealed Himself to me (still had little use for the church back then!). I'm still not "religious." I really don't give much care for religion at all. I'm not all that "holy" either, save for the true meaning of that term -- "set apart for God's use" -- that I am, fully and completely!
What I find when I read the Word is God's election on every page. God made Adam and revealed Himself to first man. God laid out His plan to Adam on the day Adam exercised his free will, sinned, and fell from grace. On that day, God said that He would send Messiah to crush the head of the evil one, and the rest, as they say, is history. God elected Noah and his family to carry the human race forward when all the rest of enslaved, sinful humanity was crushed beneath the waters. God elected Abram from all the peoples of the earth so that re-named Abraham could be the father of the family that would spawn the nation that would be the line of the promised Messiah.
From Abraham's family, God elected one son -- Issac -- to be the chosen line. From Issac's line, God chose Jacob, the younger, to be the carrier of the blessing. From the offspring of Jacob, God elected the line of Judah to be the carriers of the promise, but along the way, He also elected another family line to be the priests who would teach the people and hold them accountable to the revealed Word. God elected Moses and caused special circumstances to occur in that man's life so he could foreshadow the Messiah and lead God's people to the Promised Land. God elected Joshua -- Yeshua, the very name of Messiah to come -- as the leader who actually led God's elected people into Canaan.
Throughout the OT, God's election is seen as God worked His plan through history. The election never made sense to the people of that age, but it sure did once the story was told! Over and again, God elected this person or that -- often making no sense to the ones who thought it should be some other way -- and ultimately, from two separate lies of God's elected king over Israel, God elected, when the time was right, to send His Son, Jesus into the world, just like He promised to Adam way back when.
Then, Jesus came to those people that God elected, and as the Holy Spirit caused John to write, "they rejected their own..." With SALVATION walking amongst them, God's people could not see their Messiah because their "religion" said otherwise... So, that Messiah moved forward with the rest of the plan -- a plan that had ALWAYS been in existence -- to see God's elect from all peoples of the earth come to know that Messiah had come. To an elect handful of men, God entrusted the message of salvation, knowing that those most unlikely bunch of people would accomplish His will because He knows all things and never makes a mistake. They taught those of us who follow to preach the "good news" to the perishing, and to reap a harvest of the elect, who will go and do likewise until God elects to end history and start a new heaven and new earth.
Moral of this testimony/overview of Scripture?
Is your "religion" getting in the way of discovering Messiah? Sadly, for a great many people, I believe it is -- not arrogantly, nor with haughty spirit, but in all humility, realizing that God's grace is un-merited by any of my actions, my efforts, or my beliefs -- I merely plead with men to listen for that still small voice of the One True God and do what He says. For, that alone is your only hope, but that only hope will never be found as long as you are sufficient in your own ability to "choose God."
I'm no longer kicking and screaming against my Lord... He has me, and I worship Him for having me!
Perhaps the best post I've read since I have been on Baptist board. Thank you for sharing this tremendous testimony of the grace of God and for your exposition of election in scripture.
This should be published!
Good job.:applause:
glfredrick,
Praise to our Glorious God for your testimony! What a wondrous story of God's grace to another undeserving soul like my own! The beauty of our Lord shines out of your words, in the backdrop of your formerly stubborn heart. Praise the Lord!
Here are songs that came to mind as I ready your testimony.
1.
Hold down the Ctrl key as you click on links below:
Be Unto Your Name - On YouTube with images of the lyrics
Be Unto Your Name - On YouTube with artistic images of what Heaven might look like
Be Unto Your Name
Lyrics:
We are a moment, You are forever
Lord of the Ages, God before time
We are a vapor, You are eternal
Love everlasting, reigning on high
Chorus:
Holy, holy, Lord God Almighty
Worthy is the Lamb Who was slain
Highest praises, honor and glory
Be unto Your name, be unto Your name
We are the broken, You are the healer
Jesus, Redeemer, mighty to save
You are the love song we'll sing forever
Bowing before You, blessing Your name
Songwriter(s): DeShazo, Lynn Sadler, Gary
______________________________________________________________
2.
http://www.hymntime.com/tch/bio/k/e/n/kent_j.htm
(No sound on this link)
Here is a song that supports sovereign predestination themes.
There are times when it is glorious to see, with our souls, God's eternal love for us.
Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding
1. Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding,
Ransomed souls, the tidings swell;
‘Tis a deep that knows no sounding:
Who its breath or length can tell?
On its glories
On its glories
Let my soul for ever dwell!
2. What from Christ the soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
Once in Him, in Him for ever,
This the eternal covenant stands:
None shall pluck thee
None shall pluck thee
From the Strength of Israel’s hands.
3. Heirs of God, joint-heirs with Jesus
Long ere time its race began;
To His Name eternal praises,
O what wonders love hath done!
One with Jesus;
One with Jesus;
By eternal union one.
4. On such love, my soul, still ponder,
Love so great, so rich, so free!
Say, while lost in holy wonder,
Why, O Lord, such love to me?
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!
Grace shall reign eternally.
___________________________________________________________
3.
Finally, please meditate on each rich word below to discover a treasure of love to our Lord. It's a song of the heart and soul, not to be sung as a duty, but from a heart that is overwhelmed and trembling!
Hold down the Ctrl Key and Click below to hear the music as you read:
http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/135
______________________________________________________________
O my Savior, Glorified!
O my Savior, glorified!
Now the heavens, opened wide,
Show to faith's exultant eye
One in beauteous majesty.
Worthy of the sweetest praise
That my ransomed heart can raise,
Is that Man in whom alone
God Himself is fully known.
For those clust'ring glories prove
That glad gospel, "God is Love,"
Whilst those wounds, in glory bright.
Voice the solemn, "God is Light.
"Hark, my soul! thy Savior sings;
Catch the joy that music brings,
And, with that sweet flood of song,
Pour thy whisp'ring praise along.
O my Savior, glorified,
Turn my eye from all beside,
Let me but Thy beauty see,
Other light is dark to me.
Praise to our Glorious God for your testimony! What a wondrous story of God's grace to another undeserving soul like my own! The beauty of our Lord shines out of your words, in the backdrop of your formerly stubborn heart. Praise the Lord!
Here are songs that came to mind as I ready your testimony.
1.
Hold down the Ctrl key as you click on links below:
Be Unto Your Name - On YouTube with images of the lyrics
Be Unto Your Name - On YouTube with artistic images of what Heaven might look like
Be Unto Your Name
Lyrics:
We are a moment, You are forever
Lord of the Ages, God before time
We are a vapor, You are eternal
Love everlasting, reigning on high
Chorus:
Holy, holy, Lord God Almighty
Worthy is the Lamb Who was slain
Highest praises, honor and glory
Be unto Your name, be unto Your name
We are the broken, You are the healer
Jesus, Redeemer, mighty to save
You are the love song we'll sing forever
Bowing before You, blessing Your name
Songwriter(s): DeShazo, Lynn Sadler, Gary
______________________________________________________________
2.
http://www.hymntime.com/tch/bio/k/e/n/kent_j.htm
(No sound on this link)
Here is a song that supports sovereign predestination themes.
There are times when it is glorious to see, with our souls, God's eternal love for us.
Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding
1. Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding,
Ransomed souls, the tidings swell;
‘Tis a deep that knows no sounding:
Who its breath or length can tell?
On its glories
On its glories
Let my soul for ever dwell!
2. What from Christ the soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
Once in Him, in Him for ever,
This the eternal covenant stands:
None shall pluck thee
None shall pluck thee
From the Strength of Israel’s hands.
3. Heirs of God, joint-heirs with Jesus
Long ere time its race began;
To His Name eternal praises,
O what wonders love hath done!
One with Jesus;
One with Jesus;
By eternal union one.
4. On such love, my soul, still ponder,
Love so great, so rich, so free!
Say, while lost in holy wonder,
Why, O Lord, such love to me?
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!
Grace shall reign eternally.
___________________________________________________________
3.
Finally, please meditate on each rich word below to discover a treasure of love to our Lord. It's a song of the heart and soul, not to be sung as a duty, but from a heart that is overwhelmed and trembling!
Hold down the Ctrl Key and Click below to hear the music as you read:
http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/135
______________________________________________________________
O my Savior, Glorified!
O my Savior, glorified!
Now the heavens, opened wide,
Show to faith's exultant eye
One in beauteous majesty.
Worthy of the sweetest praise
That my ransomed heart can raise,
Is that Man in whom alone
God Himself is fully known.
For those clust'ring glories prove
That glad gospel, "God is Love,"
Whilst those wounds, in glory bright.
Voice the solemn, "God is Light.
"Hark, my soul! thy Savior sings;
Catch the joy that music brings,
And, with that sweet flood of song,
Pour thy whisp'ring praise along.
O my Savior, glorified,
Turn my eye from all beside,
Let me but Thy beauty see,
Other light is dark to me.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry, I pasted the wrong link above to the song "Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding".
Here is a link that works
Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding
http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/314
Here is a link that works
Sovereign grace! o’er sin abounding
http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/314
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