Poll on Doctrines of Grace and Free Will

[Thousand Hills]

My theologian friends call me an “in-the-closet Calvinist”! (so maybe I’m more of one than I realize). Although I voted for the 5-point Calvinist view-I’d personally re-word Limited Atonement & irresistible grace. While the atonement of Christ was sufficient for all, it will only be applied to those who have faith—so maybe I’d call it the unlimited sufficiency of Christ’s atonement that is limited to the elect. As far as irresistible Grace is concerned, I certainly believe that man cannot thwart God plan, but to call it irresistible gives off the notion that man plays no role at all, when human responsibility is part of the salvation process. I think the best way I can explain it is by saying— I am saved b/c God's plan of salvation included me in His electing process! He gave me the gift of faith & I accepted it! Besides that my salvation is totally from the Father's plan, the Son's accomplishment, & the Spirit's application. This being said—the human responsibility factor of having faith can only happen b/c of the Holy Spirit’s action of drawing me to God. So only God can get any credit for the fact that I am saved. So instead of irresistible grace—I’d call it the gift of faith that is my responsibility to accept, although I really had nothing to do with it-lol.

Back when this thread was started (almost a month ago) I voted 4 point. Like my friend here from Bama, the two that give me "minor" heartburn are Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. I think he summs up pretty well how I see things at this point of studying this issue.

 

[menageriekeeper]

:
Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire
Im not sure I understand, so help me out here. Are you relating the Doctrine of Grace to the broad gate & free will to a narrow gate? Is that what your saying?

I believe her point was that being in the majority is not always a good thing.

Webdog is correct. Anytime a Christian is in the "majority", they need to step back and be sure their beliefs are in agreement with scripture. Remember, the nation of Isreal thought it was in agreement with Law, yet Christ told them they had missed the entire point.

 

[glfredrick]

Actually it is what you agreed to.
I'm not trying to do either. I have already admitted the tension in the passage, and it seems you would view my understanding as "open theism" based on the past few pages of interaction while allowing for the possibility that God lied to Hezekiah.

Huh?

I think I'm done in this particular thread. We're so far and scattered that any attempt to salvage our discussion will prove futile.

Look for me to pick up fresh in the next one.

Also, I'm having to curtail my time on the board, as they are checking computer activity at work these days. This does not qualify as work related, so if I'm gone more, don't take that as that I don't have a response or don't care about the issues. Just can't spend as much time! :tear:

 

[webdog]

I think I'm done in this particular thread. We're so far and scattered that any attempt to salvage our discussion will prove futile.

Huh? I was following along quite nicely.

Look for me to pick up fresh in the next one.

No problem, look forward to it.

Also, I'm having to curtail my time on the board, as they are checking computer activity at work these days. This does not qualify as work related, so if I'm gone more, don't take that as that I don't have a response or don't care about the issues. Just can't spend as much time!

...you mean after the thesis you wrote about marriage on the other thread, right? I'm just needling you, my whipped brother

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe her point was that being in the majority is not always a good thing.

OK? Thennnnn who is in the majority? Is she talking the poll or is she talking world view?

 

[Havensdad]

OK? Thennnnn who is in the majority? Is she talking the poll or is she talking world view?

Exactly. Calvinism is a minority. It is a majority here, among people who study and care enough about God's Word to spend time debating and defending it, but a decided minority in the marginal church in America. I think that is quite telling.

 

[Amy.G]

Exactly. Calvinism is a minority. It is a majority here, among people who study and care enough about God's Word to spend time debating and defending it, but a decided minority in the marginal church in America. I think that is quite telling.

Should I be offended at this post? Or maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded?

I am not a Calvinist, but believe me, I study and care about God's word.

Calvinists certainly aren't the only ones who love God.

 

[Havensdad]

Should I be offended at this post? Or maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded?

I am not a Calvinist, but believe me, I study and care about God's word.

Calvinists certainly aren't the only ones who love God.

I meant exactly what I said. I wasn't the one who brought up the "broad path" argument. That was one from your side of this debate, against the results of this poll; I suggest you direct your offense against her.

But, yes, the only place that Calvinism is a majority, is among Bible scholars/Seminary professors. Calvinism is in the minority among the laity. That does seem to suggest something.

The fact is, someone is wrong. And I think that someone is you.

 

[Robert Snow]

I meant exactly what I said. I wasn't the one who brought up the "broad path" argument. That was one from your side of this debate, against the results of this poll; I suggest you direct your offense against her.

But, yes, the only place that Calvinism is a majority, is among Bible scholars/Seminary professors. Calvinism is in the minority among the laity. That does seem to suggest something.

The fact is, someone is wrong. And I think that someone is you.

And you Calvinists wonder why we "Bible-believers" say you are arrogant? That's right, it's only we who reject this evil, man-made, ungodly, straight from hell doctrine that know anything about what God is really doing. If I thought this were actually true, which I don't, would you admire me for stating what I believe is true, or would you be offended at my comments?

You may not like it or even want to admit it, but there are sincere God-loving Christians on both sides of this issue.

 

[Old Union Brother]

You may not like it or even want to admit it, but there are sincere God-loving Christians on both sides of this issue.

I Like this quote. Which goes back to the question: What is essential for salvation? My answer the grace of God made manifest by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Havensdad]

And you Calvinists wonder why we "Bible-believers" say you are arrogant? That's right, it's only we who reject this evil, man-made, ungodly, straight from hell doctrine that know anything about what God is really doing. If I thought this were actually true, which I don't, would you admire me for stating what I believe is true, or would you be offended at my comments?

You may not like it or even want to admit it, but there are sincere God-loving Christians on both sides of this issue.

It is not arrogant to believe you are right. On the other hand, it is idiotic to be accepting of things which you believe are not only wrong, but rob God of glory, and besmirch His holy name.

As far as your last comment; just because someone is sincere, and God loving, doesn't mean they are right.

 

[Amy.G]

I meant exactly what I said. I wasn't the one who brought up the "broad path" argument. That was one from your side of this debate, against the results of this poll; I suggest you direct your offense against her.

But, yes, the only place that Calvinism is a majority, is among Bible scholars/Seminary professors. Calvinism is in the minority among the laity. That does seem to suggest something.

The fact is, someone is wrong. And I think that someone is you.

Well...alrighty then.

Your post really isn't worth the effort to respond to, except to say that I will not be directing my offense at my sister MK. I KNOW she loves the Lord and doesn't deserve your harsh words against her.

 

[Luke2427]

It is not arrogant to believe you are right. On the other hand, it is idiotic to be accepting of things which you believe are not only wrong, but rob God of glory, and besmirch His holy name.

As far as your last comment; just because someone is sincere, and God loving, doesn't mean they are right.

Yea, I think this is true. It seems to be a problem developing on here that one cannot state anything authoritatively or frankly without being attacked as arrogant.

We have to speak in platitudes and tip toe around everyone's feeling laden sleeves until the men on here seem almost effeminate.

It is as if our speech is to be so bland and trite that nobody is ever wrong and everybody is always right. The only exception is when someone says he is right and someone else is wrong- then that person is arrogant and abrasive and unchristian and immature- and wrong.

Debate seems to be less and less about iron sharpening iron and more and more about propping up one another's tender egos.




More on this on the "baptist DEBATE forums" thread in the General Baptist section...

 

[quantumfaith]

And you Calvinists wonder why we "Bible-believers" say you are arrogant? That's right, it's only we who reject this evil, man-made, ungodly, straight from hell doctrine that know anything about what God is really doing. If I thought this were actually true, which I don't, would you admire me for stating what I believe is true, or would you be offended at my comments?

You may not like it or even want to admit it, but there are sincere God-loving Christians on both sides of this issue.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

It is not arrogant to believe you are right. On the other hand, it is idiotic to be accepting of things which you believe are not only wrong, but rob God of glory, and besmirch His holy name.
False claims. Non-adherence to calvinist theology in no way "robs" God of ANY Glory and Most certainly does not "besmirch" His Holy Name.

As far as your last comment; just because someone is sincere, and God loving, doesn't mean they are right.

This is a "logically equivalent" statement for ALL parties and positions concerned.

 

[quantumfaith]

"In essentials, Unity; In non-essentials, Liberty; In all things, Love."
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

But, yes, the only place that Calvinism is a majority, is among Bible scholars/Seminary professors. Calvinism is in the minority among the laity. That does seem to suggest something.

Changed my mind. I am going to respond to this.

Exactly what does that suggest to you?

The laity is too stupid to understand God's word? Only "scholars" and "professors" have to ability to interpret God's word correctly?


This is the perfect example of arrogance. And worse, it is directed towards the brethren.


It reminds me of the Catholic church, who decided the Word of God did not belong in the hands of the common man. I am thankful for men like Tynedale who died to put the Word in the hands of stupid people like me.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I will be gone for this entire day and don't have time to fully answer all the points raised since last night.

I will say however that my "broad path" comment was meant to accomplish just what it has: it shows the pride and arrogance of those Calvinists who insist they are correct in their views without being able to substantially answer the questions posed by "the other side".

Luke, both here and in his other thread wants to know why we all don't understand that Calvinists are right and everyone else wrong, because of some misguided idea of "authority". I answered that in his new thread and won't repeat it here, except for to say that NNE HERE is my authority. Go read the rest over on the other thread.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Changed my mind. I am going to respond to this.

Exactly what does that suggest to you?

The laity is too stupid to understand God's word? Only "scholars" and "professors" have to ability to interpret God's word correctly?


This is the perfect example of arrogance. And worse, it is directed towards the brethren.


It reminds me of the Catholic church, who decided the Word of God did not belong in the hands of the common man. I am thankful for men like Tynedale who died to put the Word in the hands of stupid people like me.

Amy, I don't know what's happened to you, my dear friend, but you seem to have changed somewhat in your posts, especially when it comes to dealing with those who hold to a view different than yours. I miss my friend.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's the one bad thing most people see concerning those who have a reformed theology.

They hold this elitist attitude. They also tend to then go further and feel that only those who know the languages should say what the Bible says. We have therefore replaced the Spirit who leads into all truth to the "pseudo-scholars"!

Another thing, look how the man on here addresses a lady, Amy. Ridiculous.

Then the abrasive ones that say to one another "You're not abrasive!"

It's like one sheet of sandpaper saying to the other sheet of sandpaper "Am I abrasive?" and the other replies "No, am I?" to which the other replies "Not at all!"


pfffft.


:thumbs: