Why is there evil in the world?

[quantumfaith]

Only problem is Scripture states death entered the world through sin.

Well, webdog, even if "you and I disagree" with that assertion, that is precisely the point of Dr. Dembski's work. If you read it, I think you might understand his position and you "may" even agree with it.

I know, you and I are on separate sides of the fence of the "old earth" and "young earth" debate. No need to argue (debate) that here.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,

While you and I agree that "God is Sovereign", knows all et al. We disagree that God purposely and with intent "created" evil, even if for the purpose of His glory. (Although I do agree, this assertion is within the sample space of probablity but I do not think it the most "likely event". My position is that He KNEW evil would in fact be a by product in a creation of anything other than automatons. His infinite knowledge of it, in my HO, does not imply that He created it with intention.

I am surprised that you find yourself "at odds" with any Augustinan view. As so much of reformed theology finds its roots in the soil of Augustine.

Currently I am reading a book on theodicy, "The End of Christianity" by Dr. William Dembski. In his book, he is attempting to demonstrate, that death, suffering (evil) could exist chronologically prior to the "fall". Interesting ideas, and the fact of his being a believer and accomplished natural scientist (mathematical physicist) I must admit is intriguing to me.

I do "intellectually" understand your arguments for God being the author of evil and the multitude of scriptural support given for it, as well it being a necessary conclusion of reformed theology. However, I also see scriptural and logical support for God not being (responsible, culpable etc.) for the presence of evil.

1 John 1:5 (English-NIV)
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

I dont think it a "stretch" to make an "equivalence relation" between "darkness and evil".

First of all let me commend you on the mature and temperate nature of this post. It is not snippy or insulting or demeaning or inflammatory. I appreciate this because these kinds of exchanges tend to produce more light than heat. This is what we should be aiming for in these debates, IMO.

Secondly, I do not disagree with Augustine on his definition. But since evil did not always "exist" (in other words since there were not always "pockets of missing goodness"), evil whatever it is or is not had a beginning. It started. Something brought it to pass.

Evil, like darkness is the result of the absence of something. Something changed, something vacated its post (goodness) to allow evil to be. Darkness is not eternal for example. Light had to give way, change or move in some way for darkness to be.

God must be the first cause. God must know everything that is going to happen as a result of whatever he sets in motion. In order to set it in motion, knowing all that is going to happen as a result, he plans everything that is to happen by setting that something into motion. Everything that happens is not only foreknown of God but "foreplanned" as well.

The only other option is that, when God sets that something in motion things happen which he did not plan to happen. That is illogical and, if I may, a bit blasphemous as well.

Before God built the universe the exact way that he built it he knew exactly what would happen and every single thing that would happen- beforehand. THEN he built it knowing all things that would take place as a result of his design that he would put in place. Therefore, he planned EVERYTHING TO HAPPEN JUST AS IT HAPPENS.

He knew if he built the universe the way he did, and if he built Earth and the Garden of Eden the way he did; he knew that if he made Lucifer the way he did and the serpent the way he did- he knew EXACTLY what would come to pass and that it would come to pass exactly as it did. He knew man would fall- but he built it all the way he did ANYWAY.

That he built it the way he did knowing what would happen if he made creation and creatures the way he did is clear proof that he planned for everything to happen exactly the way it has.

God planned it- there is no way around it. And when I think of what he has and is and will accomplish through this universe the exact way that it is- I AM OVERWHELMED WITH AWE AT HIS GLORIOUS AND BRILLIANT PLAN!

The only other option is blasphemous- that millions of things happened that he did not plan when he built everything exactly as he built it.

Then we read in the Scripture: God worketh ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL!!!!

And then we read- FOR OF HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS!!

And then we fall to our knees and declare How great is our God!!!

 

[quantumfaith]

First of all let me commend you on the mature and temperate nature of this post. It is not snippy or insulting or demeaning or inflammatory. I appreciate this because these kinds of exchanges tend to produce more light than heat. This is what we should be aiming for in these debates, IMO.

Secondly, I do not disagree with Augustine on his definition. But since evil did not always "exist" (in other words since there were not always "pockets of missing goodness"), evil whatever it is or is not had a beginning. It started. Something brought it to pass.

Evil, like darkness is the result of the absence of something. Something changed, something vacated its post (goodness) to allow evil to be. Darkness is not eternal for example. Light had to give way, change or move in some way for darkness to be.

God must be the first cause. God must know everything that is going to happen as a result of whatever he sets in motion. In order to set it in motion, knowing all that is going to happen as a result, he plans everything that is to happen by setting that something into motion. Everything that happens is not only foreknown of God but "foreplanned" as well.

The only other option is that, when God sets that something in motion things happen which he did not plan to happen. That is illogical and, if I may, a bit blasphemous as well.

Before God built the universe the exact way that he built it he knew exactly what would happen and every single thing that would happen- beforehand. THEN he built it knowing all things that would take place as a result of his design that he would put in place. Therefore, he planned EVERYTHING TO HAPPEN JUST AS IT HAPPENS.

He knew if he built the universe the way he did, and if he built Earth and the Garden of Eden the way he did; he knew that if he made Lucifer the way he did and the serpent the way he did- he knew EXACTLY what would come to pass and that it would come to pass exactly as it did. He knew man would fall- but he built it all the way he did ANYWAY.

That he built it the way he did knowing what would happen if he made creation and creatures the way he did is clear proof that he planned for everything to happen exactly the way it has.

God planned it- there is no way around it. And when I think of what he has and is and will accomplish through this universe the exact way that it is- I AM OVERWHELMED WITH AWE AT HIS GLORIOUS AND BRILLIANT PLAN!

The only other option is blasphemous- that millions of things happened that he did not plan when he built everything exactly as he built it.

Then we read in the Scripture: God worketh ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL!!!!

And then we read- FOR OF HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS!!

And then we fall to our knees and declare How great is our God!!!

I so AGREE, but please "confirm" that you do not think, that those of us who think "differently" regarding "theodicy" have any "disrepect or diminished" view of the Lordship of God. "ma ge no it to" (sp). "We" hold an equally high view of God, and simply acknowledge that God has, because He intended to, created the concept of "free will" within the fabric of creation. As a natural scientist (mathematician) I look at creation, much like Paul speaks about, and because of the sentience and rationality God granted me, I see multiple evidences (quantum theory etc.) for that freedom, again Granted by God by intention. Perhaps, theologically we are "polar opposites" (North/South) but we both acknowledge the One Creator YHWH, and the ONE redeemer Jesus the Christ.

 

[Luke2427]

[/I][/B]

I so AGREE, but please "confirm" that you do not think, that those of us who think "differently" regarding "theodicy" have any "disrepect or diminished" view of the Lordship of God. "ma ge no it to" (sp). "We" hold an equally high view of God, and simply acknowledge that God has, because He intended to, created the concept of "free will" within the fabric of creation. As a natural scientist (mathematician) I look at creation, much like Paul speaks about, and because of the sentience and rationality God granted me, I see multiple evidences (quantum theory etc.) for that freedom, again Granted by God by intention. Perhaps, theologically we are "polar opposites" (North/South) but we both acknowledge the One Creator YHWH, and the ONE redeemer Jesus the Christ.

Free will, I think, is really a misnomer when you think it through to its logical conclusion.

Every person does what he most wants to do at any given moment.

He is bound to always do what he most wants to do.

Many got up and went to work this morning even though they did not want to; but more than they did not want to go to work, they wanted a job and paycheck.

The will is not free. It is bound by desire.

No one can be forced to do what they do not want to do. I can put a gun to your head and say eat this spinach. You may not want to eat spinach but you will eat it because you want MORE to live.

Every man must do what he MOST wants to do at any given moment.

Another post might ought to be dedicated to why you want to do what you want to do.

 

[quantumfaith]

Free will, I think, is really a misnomer when you think it through to its logical conclusion.

Every person does what he most wants to do at any given moment.

He is bound to always do what he most wants to do.

Many got up and went to work this morning even though they did not wnat to, but more than they did not want the got to work, they MORE wanted a job and paycheck.

The will is not free. It is bound by desire.

No one can be forced to do what they do not want to do. I can put a gun to your head and say eat this spinach. You may not want to eat spinach but you will eat it because you want MORE to live.

Every man must do what he MOST wants to do at any given moment.

Another post might ought to be dedicated to why you want to do what you want to do.

If we are speaking of "libertarian free will", I concur. But I find no contradiction with the possibility that God granted creation a "measure" of free will, to be limited by whatever parameters He chose as limiting boundaries.

 

[Luke2427]

Free will, I think, is really a misnomer when you think it through to its logical conclusion.

Every person does what he most wants to do at any given moment.

He is bound to always do what he most wants to do.

Many got up and went to work this morning even though they did not wnat to, but more than they did not want the got to work, they MORE wanted a job and paycheck.

The will is not free. It is bound by desire.

No one can be forced to do what they do not want to do. I can put a gun to your head and say eat this spinach. You may not want to eat spinach but you will eat it because you want MORE to live.

Every man must do what he MOST wants to do at any given moment.

Another post might ought to be dedicated to why you want to do what you want to do.

Men want what they want because they are what they are. They are what they are because of forces outside of themselves or beyond their control.

They had no control over how their taste buds would be arranged or they had no control over Uncle Jimmy feeding them too many onion drenched Krystal Burgers when they were four. So when they come to a road with a Krystal Burger joint on the left and an Arby's on the right- they will choose Arby's. Why? Because forces outside of them have shaped their desires so that they want Arby's over Krystal.

Were they really free in this decision? Was it really up to them? Or did forces outside of them; forces over which they had no real control determine what restaurant they would eat at this day?

 

[Luke2427]

Men want what they want because they are what they are. They are what they are because of forces outside of themselves or beyond their control.

They had no control over how their taste buds would be arranged or they had no control over Uncle Jimmy feeding them too many onion drenched Krystal Burgers when they were four. So when they come to a road with a Krystal Burger joint on the left and an Arby's on the right- they will choose Arby's. Why? Because forces outside of them have shaped their desires so that they want Arby's over Krystal.

Were they really free in this decision? Was it really up to them? Or did forces outside of them; forces over which they had no real control determine what restaurant they would eat at this day?

Those forces outside of themselves are controlled by the one who started everything in motion (the Prime Mover) who planned everything to happen just exactly as it happened.

When God built the universe he set things in motion that would eventually bring to pass a disdain in my heart for Krystal burgers.

The chain of events that brought to pass my hatred for crystal burgers can be traced back to God and his design.

He knew if he built the universe and Adam and the Garden and the Serpent and Lucifer a certain way exactly what the outcome would be and exactly what every single out come would be large and small.

If God did not want a particular outcome then he could have tweeked the construction of the universe and Adam and Lucifer and the Serpent and the Garden just so that that particular outcome that God did not want to come to pass would not come to pass.

But he built the universe exactly like he did which means-...


He planned for me to not like Krystal burgers.

Which means on the 1st of January 2009 when I came to Rice St. and there was both a Krystal Burger and an Arby's on that road- God ordained in eternity past that I would, that day, eat at Arby's.

 

[Humblesmith]

I hope we're not saying that God is the author of evil, and the cause of evil. God forbid! May it never be!

There is a difference between 1) God planning something, God ordaining something to be the case, God being totally sovereign, and 2) God being the efficient cause of everything. These two things are not the exact same thing.

To suggest that God is the author of sin is heresy. Rather, we can say that God used the evil done by creatures to accomplish His will and His plan.

 

[Allan]

Rather, we can say that God used the evil done by creatures to accomplish His will and His plan.

Unfortunately some will say you have placed free will to high and usurped God's Sovereignty.

 

[Luke2427]

I hope we're not saying that God is the author of evil, and the cause of evil. God forbid! May it never be!

There is a difference between 1) God planning something, God ordaining something to be the case, God being totally sovereign, and 2) God being the efficient cause of everything. These two things are not the exact same thing.

To suggest that God is the author of sin is heresy. Rather, we can say that God used the evil done by creatures to accomplish His will and His plan.

God cannot perform evil- but he did ordain that it be. That is orthodoxy.

God ordered the creation and the events of creation in such a way that evil would come to pass. It was his will that evil be. That is plain and irrefutable.

God does not like evil, mind you, but he uses evil for an infinitely glorious purpose- to magnify Christ in the highest degree possible.

Evil is a necessary evil that God ordained for the noblest and grandest of all purposes.

 

[Luke2427]

Unfortunately some will say you have placed free will to high and usurped God's Sovereignty.

Saying that God uses evil is correct but insufficient. God planned it. God ordained it. God willed that it should be.

God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

There is nothing that has ever happened that God did not plan.

Many things happen that god does not like in and of themselves, but he ordained that they happen for a high and holy purpose- His highest glory and our highest eternal happiness.

 

[psalms109:31]

Creation

God created us to be good, evil was not created in us it was found. God did created evil, darkness as in the one He created that evil was found in, it was God who created him. When we desired the creation over the Creator, it became messy.

 

[Luke2427]

God created us to be good, evil was not created in us it was found. God did created evil, darkness as in the one He created that evil was found in, it was God who created him.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying that God created evil or that he did not?

 

[webdog]

God cannot perform evil- but he did ordain that it be. That is orthodoxy.

If He ordained it, He performed it...and it's anything but orthodoxy.

God ordered the creation and the events of creation in such a way that evil would come to pass. It was his will that evil be. That is plain and irrefutable.

It's irrefutable that God willed evil?!? It is your theology that "orders" every event in history, but it's the Bible that shows us God allows evil to take place. Not the same thing.

God does not like evil, mind you, but he uses evil for an infinitely glorious purpose- to magnify Christ in the highest degree possible.

I agree with this, He "uses" evil.

Evil is a necessary evil that God ordained for the noblest and grandest of all purposes.

...then why wasn't it part of the original creation which was noble and grand?

 

[psalms109:31]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying that God created evil or that he did not?

Ezekiel 28:
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

He created the one who were evil not to be evil, evil was found in him.

 

[Luke2427]

If He ordained it, He performed it...and it's anything but orthodoxy.

Good heavens man! This is the position of those whose names practically DEFINE orthodoxy. Have you ever heard of a little fellow named Jonathan Edwards? was he not orthodox???

It's irrefutable that God willed evil?!? It is your theology that "orders" every event in history, but it's the Bible that shows us God allows evil to take place. Not the same thing.

You don't have a single verse of Scripture that proves that God did not bring all to pass that is. I have already provided two and have several more when you finally address those.

I agree with this, He "uses" evil.
...then why wasn't it part of the original creation which was noble and grand?

Do you think the cross was not God's plan?? It was not in the original creation either.

 

[webdog]

Good heavens man! This is the position of those whose names practically DEFINE orthodoxy. Have you ever heard of a little fellow named Jonathan Edwards? was he not orthodox???

Like you, I don't consider Jonathan Edwards orthodox. He's hyper.

You don't have a single verse of Scripture that proves that God did not bring all to pass that is. I have already provided two and have several more when you finally address those.

On cue, you are arguing a point not made. His sovereignty INCLUDES His permissive will, nothing can happen unless He allows. You can't provide something that doesn't exist.

Do you think the cross was not God's plan?? It was not in the original creation either.

Red Herring. Calling evil "noble and grand" is pure blasphemy. You do realize you will have to give an account for that one day, right? Repent.

 

[Luke2427]

[

QUOTE=webdog;1609148]Like you, I don't consider Jonathan Edwards orthodox. He's hyper.

You can't be serious webdog- you just can't be- you just can't. You cannot seriously believe that what Arminian and Calvinistic scholars alike have called the greatest theological and philosophical mind in American history is not orthodox. You just can't be serious.

On cue, you are arguing a point not made. His sovereignty INCLUDES His permissive will, nothing can happen unless He allows. You can't provide something that doesn't exist.

You have yet to address the argument. God designed everything knowing what would be every single outcome and still built it just the way he did. He planned it all. You can't get around it. Not only is that the ONLY logical position but it is what the Bible teaches as I have already clearly shown and will be glad to show more of.

Red Herring. Calling evil "noble and grand" is pure blasphemy. You do realize you will have to give an account for that one day, right? Repent.

Nobody called evil "noble and grand" did they? Did they? You cannot even hang in an argument with me without mischaracterizing what I say, can you? And not because I am smart or even smarter than you- but because I am right and you are wrong. That's what settles debates- whose right and wrong and who can prove it.

I said god planned evil (which is plain as the nose on your face) though he hates evil- he planned it for the noblest and grandest of purposes- what is that purpose? The highest eternal glory of Christ- THAT WEBDOG IS WHAT I SAID WAS NOBLE AND GRAND- HIS GLORY. Do you disagree?????

 

[webdog]

You can't be serious webdog- you just can't be- you just can't. You cannot seriously believe that what Arminian and Calvinistic scholars alike have called the greatest theological and philosophical mind in American history is not orthodox. You just can't be serious.

I am serious, I can be, and I am. I'm glad you hold him up on such a high pedestal, and I have not read where he was called the "greatest...mind in America". He's a hyper-calvinist, like you. That's not historic orthodoxy.

You have yet to address the argument. God designed everything knowing what would be every single outcome and still built it just the way he did. He planned it all. You can't get around it. Not only is that the ONLY logical position but it is what the Bible teaches as I have already clearly shown and will be glad to show more of.

I addressed your argument. You do not like it. You dismiss it. It's something of a trend that has come to be expected, though.

Nobody called evil "noble and grand" did they? Did they? You cannot even hang in an argument with me without mischaracterizing what I say, can you? And not because I am smart or even smarter than you- but because I am right and you are wrong. That's what settles debates- whose right and wrong and who can prove it.

Actually you did in no uncertain terms. You maintain God created evil. Are you going to now retract that ALL of God's creation is not noble, grand and perfect? You are having hard enough time hanging in your own arguments, Luke.

I said god planned evil (which is plain as the nose on your face) though he hates evil- he planned it for the noblest and grandest of purposes- what is that purpose? The highest eternal glory of Christ- THAT WEBDOG IS WHAT I SAID WAS NOBLE AND GRAND- HIS GLORY. Do you disagree?????

It's nice for God to know He needed evil to exist in order for Him to be truly glorified. Of course I disagree with that, God is God and noble, grand and has the "highest eternal glory" of anyone without evil existing. I guess you must think He did not hold to these attributes prior to sin? I'm sorry...I cannot let this kind of nonsense go unchallenged. It's pure bunk.

 

[psalms109:31]

Evil or good

If a good purpose comes out of something is the plan evil or good?

What ever God does is concidered good not evil no matter what our perception is, right?