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Why is there evil in the world?

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preachinjesus

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This doesn't have anything to do with the OP and I'd be happy to take it elsewhere but webdog, dude, Edwards is a thoroughly orthodox theologian. His theological positions are well within the bounds of orthodoxy and, honestly, his work on the economic and immanent Trinity defined the theological categories themselves.

I'd hesitate to say he's "hyper-Calvinist" because a) I haven't read that aspect of his work that well and b) we need to carefully define the hyper part of that.

Anyhoo, just saying...oh and if you want a citation about him being the most brilliant American theologian Gonzalez Christian History or History of Christian Thought would probably suffice. There are lots of others, but Gonzalez is a recognized authority.
 

webdog

Active Member
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This doesn't have anything to do with the OP and I'd be happy to take it elsewhere but webdog, dude, Edwards is a thoroughly orthodox theologian. His theological positions are well within the bounds of orthodoxy and, honestly, his work on the economic and immanent Trinity defined the theological categories themselves.

I'd hesitate to say he's "hyper-Calvinist" because a) I haven't read that aspect of his work that well and b) we need to carefully define the hyper part of that.

Anyhoo, just saying...oh and if you want a citation about him being the most brilliant American theologian Gonzalez Christian History or History of Christian Thought would probably suffice. There are lots of others, but Gonzalez is a recognized authority.
Not as orthodox as you might think http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/the_new_divinity.htm
 

quantumfaith

Active Member

Thanks for sharing the link WD. For myself, it simply supports my personal position that in fact "none of us" have this theology (God thing) completely "nailed down.". This, despite however loudly we may shout, nor how logically or eloquently we may argue. We can agree on many most certain and solid facts, but much of what we "thresh" here in this forum is not entirely knowable.

We are all, no matter our theological proclivities, nothing without a saving relationship with our savior. God bless You brother and all who contribute to the discussion. My desire is that we all keep the "ugliness" of our human side from being to brash and destructive towards fellow believers.
 
My friends, whatever your view of sovereignty, to say that God planned and set evil in motion is to say He created evil. Whatever nuance of language is used to justify it, if the meaning is that God willed, wanted, and created evil, then this is heresy. Flat out, plain heresy. Our view of sovereignty must stop before we get to the point of God planning evil.

Such teachings as I've seen here reaffirm my repulsion to such doctrine, and increases my resolve against it, for it ultimately has God the author of sin, a thoroughly distasteful concept. It shows a theology gone to seed. I say begone with it. I will not continue such a discussion. I am out of this one.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Evil was necessary for God's highest honor and our highest happiness.
I don't understand this thinking. How is God honored by evil?

God is glorified by His creation and His Son. Evil is an abomination to God. He hates sin and wickedness. It does not glorify God.
How does the rape and murder of a child for example glorify God? Your theology is messed up.
 

jbh28

Active Member
I don't understand this thinking. How is God honored by evil?

God is glorified by His creation and His Son. Evil is an abomination to God. He hates sin and wickedness. It does not glorify God.
How does the rape and murder of a child for example glorify God? Your theology is messed up.

Maybe he is looking at this at another angle. Evil doesn't glorify God, but mercy does. How can you be merciful without evil? How does rape and murder glorify God? In itself it doesn't, but defeating evil in the end does. But you can't defeat something that doesn't exists.


We have to remember that evil isn't plan B. God isn't using evil because He is settling for it. It was always part of his plan. (why else would you plant that tree in the garden) Jesus Christ being the savior of the world was plan A. God didn't change his plans because Adam sinned, it was always part of his plan.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Maybe he is looking at this at another angle. Evil doesn't glorify God, but mercy does. How can you be merciful without evil? How does rape and murder glorify God? In itself it doesn't, but defeating evil in the end does. But you can't defeat something that doesn't exists.
So God created the universe and all that is in it including evil so that He would have something to defeat? Do you have any scripture for that??



We have to remember that evil isn't plan B. God isn't using evil because He is settling for it. It was always part of his plan. (why else would you plant that tree in the garden) Jesus Christ being the savior of the world was plan A. God didn't change his plans because Adam sinned, it was always part of his plan.
Maybe it was His plan to have a family that loved Him of their own free will, which required giving each of them a choice? Is that even a possibility in the mind of a Calvinist?
 

kyredneck

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.....Maybe it was His plan to have a family that loved Him of their own free will....

Is this much of your premise kinda sorta in agreement with this much of post #3?:

.... I've heard it preached, and wholeheartedly agree, when this temporal world ends and all enter into eternity, every creature in the universe will know assuredly that there can be only One will.
 
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jbh28

Active Member
So God created the universe and all that is in it including evil so that He would have something to defeat? Do you have any scripture for that??
I didn't say that was the only reason. Do you think that God, who is completely sovereign, had to settle because of sin? Do you have any Scripture that Christ defeating sin was plan B? I see it in Scripture as the ONLY plan. If you have Scripture for an alternate plan then lets see it.


Maybe it was His plan to have a family that loved Him of their own free will, which required giving each of them a choice? Is that even a possibility in the mind of a Calvinist?
Ah, so you would say that God, to get people to choose to love him, would have to have evil in the world because that's the only way. Couldn't God have created a world without evil and man still choose to love him? Why even give the possibility of evil.

Any Scripture for your maybe?
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Maybe he is looking at this at another angle. Evil doesn't glorify God, but mercy does. How can you be merciful without evil? How does rape and murder glorify God? In itself it doesn't, but defeating evil in the end does. But you can't defeat something that doesn't exists.


We have to remember that evil isn't plan B. God isn't using evil because He is settling for it. It was always part of his plan. (why else would you plant that tree in the garden) Jesus Christ being the savior of the world was plan A. God didn't change his plans because Adam sinned, it was always part of his plan.

Maybe, perhaps, those (of us) who feel that God purposefully and intently planned "free will" of his sentient creation might have some semblance of correctness? Naw, not to those convinced of the (Calvinisitc, Doctrines of Grace, Historical Baptist, Reformed) theological persuasion. According this position, any hint of "free will" is simply an illusion at best, or more properly simply a flawed and "purposeful" misstatement of who God really is.
 

jbh28

Active Member
Maybe, perhaps, those (of us) who feel that God purposefully and intently planned "free will" of his sentient creation might have some semblance of correctness? Naw, not to those convinced of the (Calvinisitc, Doctrines of Grace, Historical Baptist, Reformed) theological persuasion. According this position, any hint of "free will" is simply an illusion at best, or more properly simply a flawed and "purposeful" misstatement of who God really is.

I can see how the Calvinism/Arminianism debate can affect this too.

Are you saying that having a world with evil wasn't part of God's original plan?

btw...I believe in free will as long as you define it correctly. We are free to choose anything we want within our nature.

With the problem of evil...

1. God is good
2. God is great
3. Evil exists

It's hard to understand this. It's one of these things that it's easy to understand any two of these, but to add a third one messes with our brains. How can a God that is good and all powerful allow evil. Is He not big enough to not allow evil in the first place? It's something that we will not ever fully understand. My answer is that God allowed evil to show his mercy, his love to the world.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I am serious, I can be, and I am. I'm glad you hold him up on such a high pedestal, and I have not read where he was called the "greatest...mind in America". He's a hyper-calvinist, like you. That's not historic orthodoxy.

I could give you several sites that declare that Edwards was the greatest mind America has produced. But if you will simply type "Jonathan Edwards greatest mind" in your google search bar as I did you will plainly see it for yourself. I was taught it first in public high school in American Literature. That he is one of the greatest minds in American history is not disputable in the minds of most historians.
I addressed your argument. You do not like it. You dismiss it.

This is what you do a lot. You don't really address the argument and then when I challenge you to do so you say, "I did- you don't like the answer- tough". But you really have not, that I can find addressed the argument in question. You have not said anything about God being able to design the universe in such a way that evil never exist but he didn't. Therefore he must have had a plan for it.
God knew if he designed the universe and Adam and the serpent and the Garden and Eve, etc..., in a particular way, exactly what would be every single outcome of such design forever.
God could have tweaked Adam just so that he would not heed to Eve. He could have tweaked the serpent just so that he would not be used by Lucifer. He could have designed Adam where he would have chosen NOT to introduce evil into the world. But he didn't. Why, Webdog?
I don't think you can address this. And if you even give it an honest effort, I don't think you can support your answer with Scripture.

Actually you did in no uncertain terms. You maintain God created evil. Are you going to now retract that ALL of God's creation is not noble, grand and perfect? You are having hard enough time hanging in your own arguments, Luke.

God is responsible for the existence of evil is my position. Not that God performed evil himself. This is not possible. But god orchestrated the cosmos and man in such a way that evil would come to pass. This is plain. You can deny it- but you just saying "Uh UUHH!" is not an argument against it.


It's nice for God to know He needed evil to exist in order for Him to be truly glorified. Of course I disagree with that, God is God and noble, grand and has the "highest eternal glory" of anyone without evil existing. I guess you must think He did not hold to these attributes prior to sin? I'm sorry...I cannot let this kind of nonsense go unchallenged. It's pure bunk.


You tell me how there is a cross without evil.
You tell me how there is grace without evil.
You tell me how there is a Lamb seated upon his throne- forever receiving the praises of a multitude which no man can number for his glorious redemption of sinners- without evil.

You can't. You act like all of that was not in the plan of God when he built the universe- like all of that is fringe benefits to Christ for going in and cleaning up the mess that God never intended to take place.

That's utterly ridiculous.

He intended for Adam to fall, didn't he.

He hates evil but he planned for evil to come to pass that His Son might receive eternal praise for the display of his great grace.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I don't understand this thinking. How is God honored by evil?

God is glorified by His creation and His Son. Evil is an abomination to God. He hates sin and wickedness. It does not glorify God.
How does the rape and murder of a child for example glorify God? Your theology is messed up.

How is there are Lamb receiving praises by multitudes which no man can number throughout the endless ages of eternity for his shed blood and great grace if evil never came into existence?

How is there a cross and an empty tomb if there is no evil?

Evil is abominable to God but he ordered and designed the universe that it would come to pass so that Christ could display the great grace of God and receive eternal praise for having done so.

It is the most glorious plan any human has ever heard of.

Have you watched the video in the OP? It will answer the question better than I can.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I didn't say that was the only reason. Do you think that God, who is completely sovereign, had to settle because of sin? Do you have any Scripture that Christ defeating sin was plan B? I see it in Scripture as the ONLY plan. If you have Scripture for an alternate plan then lets see it.



Ah, so you would say that God, to get people to choose to love him, would have to have evil in the world because that's the only way. Couldn't God have created a world without evil and man still choose to love him? Why even give the possibility of evil.

Any Scripture for your maybe?

And her position still has God needing and planning evil, doesn't it.

She lambastes us for saying God wanted evil to come to pass so that by the eradication of it and the saving of his people from it He might magnify his own grace
- and yet she contends that God needed evil because he needed to be loved by a free will choice.

Which position paints God to be more needy?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
My friends, whatever your view of sovereignty, to say that God planned and set evil in motion is to say He created evil. Whatever nuance of language is used to justify it, if the meaning is that God willed, wanted, and created evil, then this is heresy. Flat out, plain heresy. Our view of sovereignty must stop before we get to the point of God planning evil.

Such teachings as I've seen here reaffirm my repulsion to such doctrine, and increases my resolve against it, for it ultimately has God the author of sin, a thoroughly distasteful concept. It shows a theology gone to seed. I say begone with it. I will not continue such a discussion. I am out of this one.

Watch the video in the OP and see if it doesn't explain the issue satisfactorily to you.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Luke....now you are a Hyper Calvinist.....LOL

That means you dont pray....do you pray brother?


According to the theopedia http://www.theopedia.com/Hyper-Calvinism historic Calvinism is contrasted with hyper Calvinism as follows:
Historic Calvinist position compared to Hyper-Calvinism

Historic Calvinists regard repentance and faith as the means by which the great commandment to love God and love our neighbor finds fulfillment. This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall and Adam certainly enjoyed the ability to do so. Man's love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be realized, namely repentance and faith, are likewise obligatory. Man owes God his love and trust by the very fact that he is God's rational creature. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. Man is still responsible to love and trust God even though, because of the Fall and while in an unregenerate state, he has lost the moral ability to do so. Therefore, contrary to hyper-Calvinism, fallen man is indeed duty-bound to repent and believe in Christ for salvation.

Jonathan Edwards was a historic Calvinist as am I.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Maybe he is looking at this at another angle. Evil doesn't glorify God, but mercy does. How can you be merciful without evil? How does rape and murder glorify God? In itself it doesn't, but defeating evil in the end does. But you can't defeat something that doesn't exists.


We have to remember that evil isn't plan B. God isn't using evil because He is settling for it. It was always part of his plan. (why else would you plant that tree in the garden) Jesus Christ being the savior of the world was plan A. God didn't change his plans because Adam sinned, it was always part of his plan.

Bingo! You pegged it. I wish I had said it as clearly as you have. Kudos! :thumbsup:
 
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