"Dead" or "Alive" part Deux?

[convicted1]

I was going to make a post when I realized that the other thread had been closed for whatever reason, so I thought I would start "anutter" one to get the ball rolling again!!:thumbs:

I hope I can break down a few walls in here and show you all why I believe we are born "alive" unto God!!

Let's go back to the beginning and I'll do my best to make a presentable case for y'all to "chew" on!!

Gen. 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now here is the Hebrew word used for "good" in all these verses.

Towb Strong's 2896 Hebrew
1) good, pleasant, agreeable

a) pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)

b) pleasant (to the higher nature)

c) good, excellent (of its kind)

d) good, rich, valuable in estimation

e) good, appropriate, becoming

f) better (comparative)

g) glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)

h) good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)

i) good, kind, benign

j) good, right (ethical)

So, everything, including mankind, is made "good" by God. Yes, including us. When He breathed into us the "breath of life", we beacame a living soul, or God made us "dead" which is a bad thing.

It's over time that we willfully sin, and from that point we die the spiritual death and in need of saving.

Here are two questions I want someone/anyone to answer for me:

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So, how can someone be "spiritually dead", and be "alive without the law"?
Next, how can you "slew" a dead thing? I showed in one of my previous post the Greek word for "slew", and it meant to kill. So how can something "dead" be killed?

Ezek. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Again, here are two verses that plainly states that the soul that sinneth it shall die. If we are born "spiritually dead", how can our soul "die" where its already dead? Can someone please answer this "biblically"(sp?)?

Look at Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

This right here is Jesus, plain as day! Hosea "bought" Gomer back, eventhough she was his wife. That's us! We belonged to Christ by our first birth(spiritually speaking), but when we willfully sinned against God, we became a "harlot", being alienated from God, because we served satan from that time, until Jesus' precious blood is applied to our souls!! Praise His sweet name!! I hope this doesn't muddy the waters!! Batter up!!:tonofbricks:

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Old Union Brother]

Dear Brother Convicted1

In my understanding you got it right. Keep up the good work.

 

[Jim1999]

Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Here we have he first man,,,,later to be named Adam....adam was first generic for all humanity. Yes, it became a living soul.

Then, we have the law of God, Gen 2:15
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it...He comanded the man........But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt NOT eat of it; for in the day thou eateth thou shalt surelt DIE. Now man lives in death........

It goes on to speak in the NT that, "As in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall all be made alive....

Cheers,

Jim

 

[convicted1]

Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Here we have he first man,,,,later to be named Adam....adam was first generic for all humanity. Yes, it became a living soul.

Then, we have the law of God, Gen 2:15
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it...He comanded the man........But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt NOT eat of it; for in the day thou eateth thou shalt surelt DIE. Now man lives in death........

It goes on to speak in the NT that, "As in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall all be made alive....

Cheers,

Jim

Bro Jim,

I bolded part of your post to address it specifically. Please bear with me as I try to present this humbly and meekly. I agree with this statement whole heartedly! The only thing Adam's fall guaranteed me was that I will die the "physical" death, whether I be "saint" or "sinner". The only thing that guarantees my soul to die is my sins. Not Adam's sins, Eve's, Esau's, Jacob"s Ishmael's, David's, Goliath's, etc....you get my point. Let us go to Romans Chapter 8 and find out what the Word says about this.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Lets look now at the word "condemned" in the Greek:

Katakrino Greek 2632 Strong's:

1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment

a) to condemn

b) by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

This word is found in Matt. 27:3, Mark 14:64, John 8:10, ICor 11:32, Heb 11:7, and 2Pet 2:6, BTW.

By Jesus' death on the cross at Calvary, He placed the "punishment from birth" on man's flesh. Man's punishment for their soul(stepping out into sin in their soul), is to die unto God and be seperated from Him. The only way back to God then is through His Son Jesus.

Here is a passage I read in the fifth chapter of Ezekiel the other day that I think will be helpful:

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a hird part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

14 Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by.

This here shows the "cost" of what rebellion against God is. They committed these sins theirselves, and they paid for it by either dying, or being scattered abroad like the wind. Death is coming to all of us by what Adam did, but we die "spiritually" by our deeds, and not Adam's.

Here is one more scripture I'd like to look at before closing:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Take a close look at the part that states "and in sin did my mother conceive me". The only way any of us can be conceived is by sperms and an egg. Intercourse causes this to come about(in some cases the sperm is artificially inseminated, but that another topic altogether), and it's a "sinful act". It's a lust of the flesh that is only acceptable to God in the "marriage bed", but it is a sin, nonetheless. This is what David was writing when he wrote this scripture. His mother conceived him in sin, but it was HER SIN, and not his. We had no say in the matter when we were born. God took one sperm and one egg, caused them to come together, and this is how mankind is brought forth now. It's the "sin of Adam" that causes us to die the physical death, but it was our sins that causes us to die spiritually. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Iconoclast]

Bro Jim,

I bolded part of your post to address it specifically. Please bear with me as I try to present this humbly and meekly. I agree with this statement whole heartedly! The only thing Adam's fall guaranteed me was that I will die the "physical" death, whether I be "saint" or "sinner". The only thing that guarantees my soul to die is my sins. Not Adam's sins, Eve's, Esau's, Jacob"s Ishmael's, David's, Goliath's, etc....you get my point. Let us go to Romans Chapter 8 and find out what the Word says about this.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Lets look now at the word "condemned" in the Greek:

Katakrino Greek 2632 Strong's:

1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment

a) to condemn

b) by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

This word is found in Matt. 27:3, Mark 14:64, John 8:10, ICor 11:32, Heb 11:7, and 2Pet 2:6, BTW.

By Jesus' death on the cross at Calvary, He placed the "punishment from birth" on man's flesh. Man's punishment for their soul(stepping out into sin in their soul), is to die unto God and be seperated from Him. The only way back to God then is through His Son Jesus.

Here is a passage I read in the fifth chapter of Ezekiel the other day that I think will be helpful:

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a hird part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

14 Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by.

This here shows the "cost" of what rebellion against God is. They committed these sins theirselves, and they paid for it by either dying, or being scattered abroad like the wind. Death is coming to all of us by what Adam did, but we die "spiritually" by our deeds, and not Adam's.

Here is one more scripture I'd like to look at before closing:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Take a close look at the part that states "and in sin did my mother conceive me". The only way any of us can be conceived is by sperms and an egg. Intercourse causes this to come about(in some cases the sperm is artificially inseminated, but that another topic altogether), and it's a "sinful act". It's a lust of the flesh that is only acceptable to God in the "marriage bed", but it is a sin, nonetheless. This is what David was writing when he wrote this scripture. His mother conceived him in sin, but it was HER SIN, and not his. We had no say in the matter when we were born. God took one sperm and one egg, caused them to come together, and this is how mankind is brought forth now. It's the "sin of Adam" that causes us to die the physical death, but it was our sins that causes us to die spiritually. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

This is unbiblical teaching.The sexual union of a husband and wife is not a sinful act.You do not understand the fall. Your proof texts do not prove what you "humbly" suggest.

 

[webdog]

Take a close look at the part that states "and in sin did my mother conceive me". The only way any of us can be conceived is by sperms and an egg. Intercourse causes this to come about(in some cases the sperm is artificially inseminated, but that another topic altogether), and it's a "sinful act". It's a lust of the flesh that is only acceptable to God in the "marriage bed", but it is a sin, nonetheless.

We are on the same page as far as man's condition, but brother you are WAY off base here. There is nothing in Scripture that alludes to relations between a man and a woman within marriage as being sinful. The marriage bed is undefiled, and if you were correct it would always be defiled.

 

[convicted1]

We are on the same page as far as man's condition, but brother you are WAY off base here. There is nothing in Scripture that alludes to relations between a man and a woman within marriage as being sinful. The marriage bed is undefiled, and if you were correct it would always be defiled.

Bro Webdog,

If you will go back to the post I made that you alluded to, you will see that I said it was a "sinful act", but it is allowable in the sight of God ONLY in the marriage bed. The marriage bed IS undefiled...this is the only place where sex is allowed, period. I am just stating that sex is a "lust of the flesh", but sex is allowed, but only in marriage. This is the point I was trying to make.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

This is unbiblical teaching.The sexual union of a husband and wife is not a sinful act.You do not understand the fall. Your proof texts do not prove what you "humbly" suggest.

Bro Iconoclast,

I do not see where this is "unbiblical teaching" as you believe. You have every right to believe that, but I will strongly disagree with you. I have showed with numerous scriptures that the penalty of Adam's sin is "our death", but our "spiritual death" is brought forth by OUR SINS. Read the post where I responded to Bro. Webdog in regards to the "marriage bed". I said it is undefiled, but sex is something that God allows only in the marriage bed.

Before we go any further with this thread, will SOMEONE/ANYONE please address these TWO questions I have asked REPEATEDLY??

In Romans chapter 7 Apostle Paul plainly stated that he was ALIVE without the law once, but the commandment came, sin revived, and HE DIED!! Now, if he was born "spiritually dead" as some suggest, how could he have been alive "without the law"??

Secondly, when he stated that sin deceived him, and it "slew him", how can anything dead be "slew"/slayed??


So, will someone address these before this thread goes any further?

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

We are on the same page as far as man's condition, but brother you are WAY off base here. There is nothing in Scripture that alludes to relations between a man and a woman within marriage as being sinful. The marriage bed is undefiled, and if you were correct it would always be defiled.

Sorry Brothers and Sisters for beating the proverbial dead horse about this. I am sorry for the way I worded this!! I sometimes get carried away, and like I have said numerous times, its hard for me to put the right words together on a keyboard. Thanks for the "rod of correction", Brother Webdog. When I am wrong, I will quickly admit it. Again, I am sorry if one of my statements came out wrong and offended ANYONE!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[webdog]

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Old Union Brother]

Sorry Brothers and Sisters for beating the proverbial dead horse about this. I am sorry for the way I worded this!! I sometimes get carried away, and like I have said numerous times, its hard for me to put the right words together on a keyboard. Thanks for the "rod of correction", Brother Webdog. When I am wrong, I will quickly admit it. Again, I am sorry if one of my statements came out wrong and offended ANYONE!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

You are right on now. Keep up the good posts. :thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Bro Iconoclast,

I do not see where this is "unbiblical teaching" as you believe. You have every right to believe that, but I will strongly disagree with you. I have showed with numerous scriptures that the penalty of Adam's sin is "our death", but our "spiritual death" is brought forth by OUR SINS. Read the post where I responded to Bro. Webdog in regards to the "marriage bed". I said it is undefiled, but sex is something that God allows only in the marriage bed.

Before we go any further with this thread, will SOMEONE/ANYONE please address these TWO questions I have asked REPEATEDLY??

In Romans chapter 7 Apostle Paul plainly stated that he was ALIVE without the law once, but the commandment came, sin revived, and HE DIED!! Now, if he was born "spiritually dead" as some suggest, how could he have been alive "without the law"??

Secondly, when he stated that sin deceived him, and it "slew him", how can anything dead be "slew"/slayed??


So, will someone address these before this thread goes any further?

i am I am's!!

Willis

Read here:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=45&c=7&com=mhc
http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_714-25.htm

maybe read about romans 5 also why you are on these sites.

 

[OldRegular]

So, everything, including mankind, is made "good" by God. Yes, including us. When He breathed into us the "breath of life", we beacame a living soul, or God made us "dead" which is a bad thing.

Your above statement is incorrect and is likely the source of your problem. GOD made Adam and Eve, the progenitors of all mankind. As Scripture teaches GOD made them good.[Genesis 1:31].

However, the progenitor of the human race, created by GOD, rebelled against GOD and brought sin and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world. When Adam and Eve sinned they immediately suffered spiritual death, alienation from God. [Genesis 2:17] At the same time those natural processes that result in physical death were set in motion; Adam and Eve began to die physically.

Your problem lies in your statement " Yes, including us.When He breathed into us the "breath of life", we became a living soul

GOD did not create or make "US"! HE did not breathe into US the breath of life. You and I and every human being that has lived since Adam and Eve lives as the result of the union of man and woman. Scripture further tells us this and more:

Psalms 51:5, KJV
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Now as someone has vigorously pointed out the sexual relations between a man and wife are not sinful so obviously GOD through David was telling us something else. John Gill, the eminent Baptist preacher of times past, says of the above passage in a rather lengthy comment:

and in sin did my mother conceive me; by whom cannot be meant Eve; for though she is the mother of all living, and so of David, yet could not, with any propriety, be said to conceive him: this only could be said of his immediate parent, not even of his next grandmother, much less of Eve, at the distance of almost three thousand years. Nor does the sin in which he was conceived intend any sin of his parents, in begetting and conceiving him, being in lawful wedlock; which acts cannot be sinful, since the propagation of the human species by natural generation is a principle of nature implanted by God himself; and is agreeably to the first law of nature, given to man in a state of innocence, "increase and multiply", Ge 1:28. Marriage is the institution of God in paradise; and in all ages has been accounted "honourable in all, [when] the bed is undefiled", Heb 13:4. Nor does it design his being conceived when his mother was in "profluviis", of which there is no proof, and is a mere imagination, and can answer no purpose; much less that he was conceived in adultery, as the contenders for the purity of human nature broadly intimate; which shows how much they are convicted by this text, to give into such an interpretation of it, at the expense of the character of an innocent person, of whom there is not the least suggestion of this kind in the Holy Scriptures; but on the contrary, she is represented as a religious woman, and David valued himself upon his relation to her as such, Ps 86:16 116:16. Besides, had this been the case, as David would have been a bastard, he would not have been suffered to enter into the congregation of the Lord, according to the law in De 23:2; whereas he often did with great delight, Ps 42:4 55:14. Moreover, it is beside his scope and design to expose the sins of others, much less his own parents, while he is confessing and lamenting his own iniquities: and to what purpose should he mention theirs, especially if he himself was not affected by them, and did not derive a corrupt nature from them? Nor is the sin he speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam, and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. Hence we learn the earliness of the corruption of nature; it is as soon as man is conceived and shapen; and that it is propagated from one to another by natural generation; and that it is the case of all men: for if this was the case of David, who was born of religious parents, was famous for his early piety, and from whose seed the Messiah sprung, it may well be concluded to be the case of all. And this corruption of nature is the fountain, source, and spring of all sin, secret and open, private and public; and is mentioned here not as an extenuation of David's actual transgressions, but as an aggravation of them; he having been, from his conception and formation, nothing else but a mass of sin, a lump of iniquity; and, in his evangelical repentance for them, he is led to take notice of and mourn over the corruption of his nature, from whence they arose."

GOD through the Apostle Paul affirms that man has inherited the sin nature from Adam, as follows:

1 Corinthians 15:22, KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One further and most significant point. In John 3:3 Jesus Christ tells us:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now obviously as HE pointed out to Nicodemus Jesus Christ was talking about spiritual birth, therefore, if man must be born again then man must be or have been spiritually dead, consistent with Ephesians 2:1-8 in particular.

 

[convicted1]

Your above statement is incorrect and is likely the source of your problem. GOD made Adam and Eve, the progenitors of all mankind. As Scripture teaches GOD made them good.[Genesis 1:31].

However, the progenitor of the human race, created by GOD, rebelled against GOD and brought sin and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world. When Adam and Eve sinned they immediately suffered spiritual death, alienation from God. [Genesis 2:17] At the same time those natural processes that result in physical death were set in motion; Adam and Eve began to die physically.

Your problem lies in your statement " Yes, including us.When He breathed into us the "breath of life", we became a living soul

GOD did not create or make "US"! HE did not breathe into US the breath of life. You and I and every human being that has lived since Adam and Eve lives as the result of the union of man and woman. Scripture further tells us this and more:

Psalms 51:5, KJV
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Now as someone has vigorously pointed out the sexual relations between a man and wife are not sinful so obviously GOD through David was telling us something else. John Gill, the eminent Baptist preacher of times past, says of the above passage in a rather lengthy comment:


GOD through the Apostle Paul affirms that man has inherited the sin nature from Adam, as follows:

1 Corinthians 15:22, KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One further and most significant point. In John 3:3 Jesus Christ tells us:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now obviously as HE pointed out to Nicodemus Jesus Christ was talking about spiritual birth, therefore, if man must be born again then man must be or have been spiritually dead, consistent with Ephesians 2:1-8 in particular.

Dear Bro. OldRegular,

So you are saying that God doesn't "make" us?? Huh? There isn't anything that was made that was not made by Him(John Ch. 1). Here is where I think people get lost. People say that after Adam and Eve, He broke the mold. I got news for you.....Adam IS the mold. In the beginning, God made Adam from the dust of the ground, therefore creating the "mold" by which we are modeled after. When God made him, there wasn't a "husband and wife union" at that time. If God wanted to, He could have raised up millions when He created Adam and Eve, but by His will, He made them the way He chose to. He then tells them to "go and multiply" and replensish the earth. By Him doing this, He set the "wheels in motion" to fill the earth with mankind. We that came afterwards, still have the "clay" in our bodies, God still Gives us our breath and we become a "living soul". When I was in college, I took a Animal Biology class, and during this class, there was a statement made in that book that scientists found traces of "clay" in the human body(imagine that).

Okay, here are the two questions I have asked repeatedly and no one has given me an answer yet.

How could Apostle Paul be "spiritually dead" and "ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW?

Secondly, if he was "spiritually dead", how could sin deceive him and "slew"/slay him? You can't slay a "dead thing".

Here are the verses I took these two questions from:

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Here is the Greek word that "alive" was taken from:

Zao Greek 2198 Strong's

1) to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)

2) to enjoy real life

a) to have true life and worthy of the name

b) active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

3) to live i.e. pass life, in the manner of the living and acting

a) of mortals or character

4) living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul

5) metaph. to be in full vigour

a) to be fresh, strong, efficient,

b) as adj. active, powerful, efficacious

This word Zao is found in Matt. 4:4, 9:18, 16:16, 22:32, 26:63, 27:63, Mark 5:23, 12:27, 16:11, Luke 2:36, 4:4, 10:28, 15:13, 20:38 24:5,23, John 4:10,11,50,51,53, 5:25, 6:51,57,58.

So the word used for"alive" is just that, to be "alive"!!

Now for the Greek word that "died came from in verse 9:

Apothnesko Greek Strong's 599

1) to die

a) of the natural death of man

b) of the violent death of man or animals

c) to perish by means of something

d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted

e) of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell

This word comes up 122 times in 99 verses, so I am not going to show you them. Look up 599 in the Greek and read them for yourself and see if I am not telling you the truth.

So this word does in fact mean "death". So Apostle Paul died! However, he wasn't born "spiritually dead" as some suppose because he stated he was alive, and do you think he was mislead by someone by making a statement like this?? He died "spiritually" when he talked about this, because if he had died "physically", he wouldn't/couldn't have wrote this.


Now let's look at the Greek word translated "slew" into English:

Apokteino Greek Strong's 615

1) to kill in any way whatever

a) to destroy, to allow to perish

2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish

a) to inflict mortal death

b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

This word Apokteino is found in Matt. 21:39, 22:6, Luke 13:4, and Rom. 7:11.


So the word used for "slew" is correct. So to be "slew"/slain, that person had to be alive before they could be "slain".

In answering you about John 3:3, of course Nicodemus had to be "born again". We all have to be born again, unless we die in infancy. We are born "alive" unto God, and when God imputes/accounts sin unto us, we then "die", meaning we are seperated from Him by sin(therefore the need to be "born again"). It was just like when God forsook Jesus. Though He knew no sin, He became sin for us. And in doing this, God had to seperate Himself from His Son because of the "penalty of sin", which is death. I hope this helps everyone see where I am coming from!!

Bro. OldRegular, have a Happy Thanksgiving!! May God bless you and your whole family. Even if we "agree to disagree", let's keep this civil. I love you Brother!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Bro OldRegular, I deleted the John Gill quote because the post was too long with "your quote", and mine. I just wanted to let you know!!

 

[convicted1]

Read here:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=45&c=7&com=mhc
http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_714-25.htm

maybe read about romans 5 also why you are on these sites.

..........I goofed and misread(if thats the correct word) what I was originally responded to.......sorry.....:tonofbricks:

 

[convicted1]

Read here:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=45&c=7&com=mhc
http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_714-25.htm

maybe read about romans 5 also why you are on these sites.

Bro Iconoclast,

Here is the commentary that was by Matthew Henry:


Commentary on Romans 7:7-13:

There is no way of coming to that knowledge of sin, which is necessary to repentance, and therefore to peace and pardon, but by trying our hearts and lives by the law. In his own case the apostle would not have known the sinfulness of his thoughts, motives, and actions, but by the law. That perfect standard showed how wrong his heart and life were, proving his sins to be more numerous than he had before thought, but it did not contain any provision of mercy or grace for his relief. He is ignorant of human nature and the perverseness of his own heart, who does not perceive in himself a readiness to fancy there is something desirable in what is out of reach. We may perceive this in our children, though self-love makes us blind to it in ourselves. The more humble and spiritual any Christian is, the more clearly will he perceive that the apostle describes the true believer, from his first convictions of sin to his greatest progress in grace, during this present imperfect state. St. Paul was once a Pharisee, ignorant of the spirituality of the law, having some correctness of character, without knowing his inward depravity. When the commandment came to his conscience by the convictions of the Holy Spirit, and he saw what it demanded, he found his sinful mind rise against it. He felt at the same time the evil of sin, his own sinful state, that he was unable to fulfil the law, and was like a criminal when condemned. But though the evil principle in the human heart produces sinful motions, and the more by taking occasion of the commandment; yet the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good. It is not favourable to sin, which it pursues into the heart, and discovers and reproves in the inward motions thereof. Nothing is so good but a corrupt and vicious nature will pervert it. The same heat that softens wax, hardens clay. Food or medicine when taken wrong, may cause death, though its nature is to nourish or to heal. The law may cause death through man's depravity, but sin is the poison that brings death. Not the law, but sin discovered by the law, was made death to the apostle. The ruinous nature of sin, and the sinfulness of the human heart, are here clearly shown.


This here alone doesn't answer the two questions I asked about how can someone be dead and "alive without the law" or how can you slay a "dead thing".

I found this in the Adam Clarke commentary on www.studylight.org:

Verse 9. I was alive without the law once
Dr. Whitby paraphrases the verse thus:-"For the seed of Abraham was alive without the law once, before the law was given, I being not obnoxious to death for that to which the law had not threatened death; but when the commandment came, forbidding it under that penalty, sin revived, and I died; i.e. it got strength to draw me to sin, and to condemn me to death.

This that I bolded is puzzling to me. If anyone holds to being born "spiritually dead", then this statement wouldn't get off the ground. But, I don't know who this "Dr. Whitby is, or their beliefs.

How about finding some scripture to answer my questions, and not what others "believe" it to be? Please don't take this as me being a "smart aleck", but I'd rather have scriptures over opinions any day. Have a Happy Thanksgiving Bro. Iconoclast!!:thumbsup:

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Iconoclast]

Bro Iconoclast,

Here is the commentary that was by Matthew Henry:


Commentary on Romans 7:7-13:

There is no way of coming to that knowledge of sin, which is necessary to repentance, and therefore to peace and pardon, but by trying our hearts and lives by the law. In his own case the apostle would not have known the sinfulness of his thoughts, motives, and actions, but by the law. That perfect standard showed how wrong his heart and life were, proving his sins to be more numerous than he had before thought, but it did not contain any provision of mercy or grace for his relief. He is ignorant of human nature and the perverseness of his own heart, who does not perceive in himself a readiness to fancy there is something desirable in what is out of reach. We may perceive this in our children, though self-love makes us blind to it in ourselves. The more humble and spiritual any Christian is, the more clearly will he perceive that the apostle describes the true believer, from his first convictions of sin to his greatest progress in grace, during this present imperfect state. St. Paul was once a Pharisee, ignorant of the spirituality of the law, having some correctness of character, without knowing his inward depravity. When the commandment came to his conscience by the convictions of the Holy Spirit, and he saw what it demanded, he found his sinful mind rise against it. He felt at the same time the evil of sin, his own sinful state, that he was unable to fulfil the law, and was like a criminal when condemned. But though the evil principle in the human heart produces sinful motions, and the more by taking occasion of the commandment; yet the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good. It is not favourable to sin, which it pursues into the heart, and discovers and reproves in the inward motions thereof. Nothing is so good but a corrupt and vicious nature will pervert it. The same heat that softens wax, hardens clay. Food or medicine when taken wrong, may cause death, though its nature is to nourish or to heal. The law may cause death through man's depravity, but sin is the poison that brings death. Not the law, but sin discovered by the law, was made death to the apostle. The ruinous nature of sin, and the sinfulness of the human heart, are here clearly shown.


This here alone doesn't answer the two questions I asked about how can someone be dead and "alive without the law" or how can you slay a "dead thing".

I found this in the Adam Clarke commentary on www.studylight.org:

Verse 9. I was alive without the law once
Dr. Whitby paraphrases the verse thus:-"For the seed of Abraham was alive without the law once, before the law was given, I being not obnoxious to death for that to which the law had not threatened death; but when the commandment came, forbidding it under that penalty, sin revived, and I died; i.e. it got strength to draw me to sin, and to condemn me to death.

This that I bolded is puzzling to me. If anyone holds to being born "spiritually dead", then this statement wouldn't get off the ground. But, I don't know who this "Dr. Whitby is, or their beliefs.

How about finding some scripture to answer my questions, and not what others "believe" it to be? Please don't take this as me being a "smart aleck", but I'd rather have scriptures over opinions any day. Have a Happy Thanksgiving Bro. Iconoclast!!:thumbsup:

i am I am's!!

Willis

Willis......
you said this;

This here alone doesn't answer the two questions I asked about how can someone be dead and "alive without the law" or how can you slay a "dead thing".

The reason any of these men do not answer your questions is that the questions you propose have nothing to do with Rom7.
Paul is speaking about remaining sin in a christian, and how the law brings a knowledge of it.

then you ask;

How about finding some scripture to answer my questions, and not what others "believe" it to be?

To be honest,I think you are not looking for answers.You are not showing any understanding of Romans 5,or 7.

The "questions you ask" are similar to if someone said in jn 3 it says unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God......so how come woman and children do not have to be born again. ?The bible only says a man. This is what you are asking in rom5 and7

 

[convicted1]

Willis......
you said this;
The reason any of these men do not answer your questions is that the questions you propose have nothing to do with Rom7.
Paul is speaking about remaining sin in a christian, and how the law brings a knowledge of it.

then you ask;


To be honest,I think you are not looking for answers.You are not showing any understanding of Romans 5,or 7.

The "questions you ask" are similar to if someone said in jn 3 it says unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God......so how come woman and children do not have to be born again. ?The bible only says a man. This is what you are asking in rom5 and7

I copied and pasted Romans ch.5 to look at:


Romans 5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


This chapter is talking about us being justified by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Here's the Greek word for justified:

dikaioō Greek 1344 Strong's

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

So in essense, we have be set free and/ or cleansed.

I agree with this wholeheartedly!! When we are justified by the blood of Christ we are born again.

Here is the Greek word for again that is used in John 3:7 Greek Strong's 507

anōthen

1) from above, from a higher place

a) of things which come from heaven or God

2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first

3) anew, over again

I remember when you posted to Amy G. that "again" really meant from above. That's true, but it also means "new, over again". So, this make what I have been posting consistent with scripture. I know we must be born again to go to heaven, but if we are born spiritually dead this would make us "spiritually born" the first time, and not "again.

So again, Apostle Paul stated with his own writing that he was alive without the law once, and that sin deceived him, and it slew him. The Law slew Paul, it showed him as a sinner(as it did to us, too), and also to Nicodemus. This is why Jesus stated what He did to Nicodemus:

John Ch. 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The Greek word used for again in verses 3 and 7 are the same anothen. When we are born again, we are born from above, and also again.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above , and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness ,neither shadow of turning. Take care Brother, and have a very Happy Thanksgiving. I do really love you as a Brother in Christ, eventhough we differ on this topic A LOT!! Take care and may God richly bless you and your whole family!! I love you, Brother!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[OldRegular]

Convicted1

You can talk and question about slew, slain, slayed, even slaughtered all you want. The fact remains that you were not created or made by GOD but by the union of a male sperm and female egg. It is true that GOd created the process by which mankind would propagate the race but You were not made by GOD in the sense that Adam and Eve were.

If you have been saved then your soul/spirit which was dead in trespass and sin was made alive by the act of GOD the Holy Spirit! [See Ephesians 2:1-8]

 

[convicted1]

Convicted1

You can talk and question about slew, slain, slayed, even slaughtered all you want. The fact remains that you were not created or made by GOD but by the union of a male sperm and female egg. It is true that GOd created the process by which mankind would propagate the race but You were not made by GOD in the sense that Adam and Eve were.

If you have been saved then your soul/spirit which was dead in trespass and sin was made alive by the act of GOD the Holy Spirit! [See Ephesians 2:1-8]

Bro. OldRegular,

That which I have bolded is ad hominem to the inth degree! This is utter boloney. Prove this with scripture. We have the same genetic makeup that Adam and Eve have! God made Adam from the "dust of the ground", and then He made Eve from Adam's rib, then Cain, Abel, and Seth were offsprings from them. We all came from this lineage, unless you hold to Charles Darwin's teaching that we came from apes. It's like the age old question, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?". The chicken came first and then the egg came from the chicken. Now because the egg came from the chicken, doesn't make it any less a chicken than the one(s) God made in the beginning. It seems that you are making us "less human" than Adam and Eve were, and this is not true. They were created "innocent" before the Lord, and when they transgressed in the Garden, they fell. That's the same way as we. We are created "innocent" before the Lord, and when we sin(willfully), we then are seperated from God(drove out of the Garden).

As I can see, you haven't given me any answers to my two questions, just posts that try to undermine them. This leads me to believe you can not find scripture(s) to suport your belief on this, and just throw in ad hominems. I have shown NUMEROUS scriptures to support my belief on this topic, and I want those with the opposing view to show me some scriptures to prove theirs. I think this is totally fair of me to ask this. BTW, have a Happy Thanksgiving, OR!! I really do love you as a Brother in Christ, it's just that we have opposing views on this topic, and I hold no "ill will" towards you. Take care Brother!!

i am I am's!!

Willis