Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[Steven2006]

They way you bicker and antagonize is not one of Paul's requirements for the pastorate, brother! Do you know what "above reproach" means...and how would your congregation feel reading your posts on the baptistboard? Do they? Have you been a pastor long?

15 years in the preaching ministry 7 years in full time pastorate.

I've baptized 39 in the past four years. I baptized 30 in three years when I was a full time youth pastor ten years ago.

Every church I've ever ministered in has at least doubled in size.

My last church before this one went from a budget of 70,000 a year to 250,000 a year in two years. I've been at the present church for a year and three months and our facilities are packed for worship and the overflow is half full nearly every Sunday. We are looking now into a building program.

But thanks for the advice. How is your ministry doing?

.

With all due respect, I am going to respond to this post, and hope it is received with the spirit it is intended.

I am trusting because of the heat of your exchange on this thread you didn't intend for it to come across this way, but I have to say this, I am troubled by your response. Surely you first give God full credit for lives saved and any increase? Your response comes across kind of prideful and full of "I's" and "My's". And seriously since when is the answer to ones attitude when dealing with others all about numbers and money?

Also if that the gold standard we should set for ourselves? If that is the case, would we not all hold many TV evangelist in the highest regards, and the best examples to emulate?

Again, I don't mean any disrespect, and I believe this was more of a quick on the trigger response towards webdog, more than anything else.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke unsuccessfully tried to argue that regeneration is some sort of incubation.

Nope- I didn't. The new birth is regeneration. But there is life before birth isn't there?

Why? Because he knows quite well that the scriptures clearly say many times you cannot have life until you believe. Of course, this destroys Total Depravity as Calvinism defines it

.

I think several of us have proven unequivocally that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God and that God must make him alive spiritually so that he CAN receive the things of the Spirit of God. Continually repeating this error of yours does not bolster it at all.

But... he's trying to save Total Depravity. That is the one and only reason for this theory. He tries to argue being born again is different from salvation which is ridiculous. Jesus said those that believe are "passed" from death to life. We are saved the moment we believe, it is not a process.

Being born again will inevitably and usually immediately culminate in the eternal salvation of a soul.

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Once again another verse that has nothing at all to do with what you are wrongly contending.

 

[Steven2006]

Not true. Adam sinned but he was not born a sinner. He was created pure and without the stain of sin.

Adam is proof that a person without a sin nature or or any tainting of sin can sin.


BTW..We die physically because of Adam's sin but we die spiritually because of our own sin, not the sins of another.

:thumbs: Very good post, Amy.

 

[Luke2427]

With all due respect, I am going to respond to this post, and hope it is received with the spirit it is intended.

I am trusting because of the heat of your exchange on this thread you didn't intend for it to come across this way, but I have to say this, I am troubled by your response. Surely you first give God full credit for lives saved and any increase? Your response comes across kind of prideful and full of "I's" and "My's". And seriously since when is the answer to ones attitude when dealing with others all about numbers and money?

Also if that the gold standard we should set for ourselves? If that is the case, would we not all hold many TV evangelist in the highest regards, and the best examples to emulate?

Again, I don't mean any disrespect, and I believe this was more of a quick on the trigger response towards webdog, more than anything else.

No disrespect taken and I appreciate your concern. It does come across that way at second glance- but I think only if you don't follow the exchnage.

Webdog asked me about my ministry and I gave him an answer.

Of course Christ did it all. He gets all the glory. That is the very thign I am arguing for in this thread.

 

[annsni]

We are born with the ability to sin, just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin. Yet, they were "very good" until they actually sinned.

You don't get it, you are not a bank robber until you rob a bank. You are not a sinner until you actually sin. We all have the ability to rob a bank, but we do not become bank robbers until we actually commit this act.

Even Satan was "perfect" until he actually sinned.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God didn't create Satan evil, Satan was part of the six day creation that God declared very good. But, like us, Satan was given free will and chose to freely sin.

So that means that we are sinless and if we really tried, we could get through life without sinning. Has that ever happened?

 

[Steven2006]

Of course Christ did it all. He gets all the glory. .

:thumbs:
.........

 

[Luke2427]

Luke unsuccessfully tried to argue that regeneration is some sort of incubation. Why? Because he knows quite well that the scriptures clearly say many times you cannot have life until you believe. Of course, this destroys Total Depravity as Calvinism defines it.

But... he's trying to save Total Depravity. That is the one and only reason for this theory. He tries to argue being born again is different from salvation which is ridiculous. Jesus said those that believe are "passed" from death to life. We are saved the moment we believe, it is not a process.

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Are you going to respond to post 325?

 

[Winman]

Faith is the receiving of the things of the Spirit of God which the natural man clearly cannot do.

It does not say he cannot, simply that he "receiveth not". This is similar to John 1:11

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

You add to what this verse truly says, it does not say the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

Now, later in the verse it does say "neither can he know them".

But, think about that a minute. How can you possibly know and understand the things of God if you will not receive them?

It is similar to our very debates we have here. I cannot understand your point of view because I first will not accept them. Why? Because I believe there is much scripture that refutes your view.

And it is the same with you. You will not entertain my point of view because you have a different doctrine than me. It is what you have been taught. Therefore, because you will not entertain my point of view you cannot understand it.

And you, like me, think you have scripture to support your view, that is why you hold to it.

Now I would challange that, I do not believe you have any scripture to support regeneration before faith, but I have posted many simple scriptures that clearly say you have to believe to have life.

But the reason the natural man cannot understand spiritual things is because he will not allow himself to entertain these ideas. It is not a matter of inability, it is a matter of unwillingness. And that is why the very first statement says, "But the natural man receiveth not".

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You may not follow me here, but you cannot possibly understand the things of the Spirit of God unless you first believe them true.

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbs:
.........

Listen, Steven, you feel free to reign me in anytime you sense me getting too heated. I do get too heated some times.

I read over the last several pages and saw what you saw.

Once again, I apologize.

God bless everyone on this thread and thanks for your patience!

 

[Luke2427]

It does not say he cannot, simply that he "receiveth not". This is similar to John 1:11

The King James, your favorite version and mine (though I am not KJVO like you), does say that-

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM for they are spiritually discerned."

Would you say that the Gospel is spiritual? Certainly. And the natural man CANNOT KNOW IT- he does not receive it. He does not receive ti because he CANNOT KNOW IT.

He cannot know it because it is spiritually discerned. He cannot receive nor know it because he is spiritually dead- all he is in his unregenerate state is natural. He must become something more than natural if he is to receive and know the things of the Spirit of God.

The Gospel is certainly a thing of the Spirit of God so before he can receive it and know it he must be made alive spiritually. Once he is made alive spiritually he can and will receive it and know it,

This is why I John 5:1 says "Whosever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is (has been in the Greek) born of God."

He believes present tense because he was born past tense of God.

 

[Luke2427]

It does not say he cannot, simply that he "receiveth not". This is similar to John 1:11

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

You add to what this verse truly says, it does not say the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

Now, later in the verse it does say "neither can he know them".

But, think about that a minute. How can you possibly know and understand the things of God if you will not receive them?

It is similar to our very debates we have here. I cannot understand your point of view because I first will not accept them. Why? Because I believe there is much scripture that refutes your view.

And it is the same with you. You will not entertain my point of view because you have a different doctrine than me. It is what you have been taught. Therefore, because you will not entertain my point of view you cannot understand it.

And you, like me, think you have scripture to support your view, that is why you hold to it.

Now I would challange that, I do not believe you have any scripture to support regeneration before faith, but I have posted many simple scriptures that clearly say you have to believe to have life.

But the reason the natural man cannot understand spiritual things is because he will not allow himself to entertain these ideas. It is not a matter of inability, it is a matter of unwillingness. And that is why the very first statement says, "But the natural man receiveth not".

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You may not follow me here, but you cannot possibly understand the things of the Spirit of God unless you first believe them true.

BTW, you did not cover half of post 339 nor have you yet responded to post 325.

 

[Winman]

Are you going to respond to post 325?

What? Where you use the old Calvinistic tactic of calling me a Pelagian?

I guess when you can't win an argument with logic and facts you can just call folks names can't you? Real mature.

I am not a Pelagian, I have never believed man has within himself the ability to reach God. No, if God had not revealed himself to us, we would all be lost without any hope.

But I do believe lost man can respond to God, just as Adam and Eve came to God when he called them. They were lost in their sins when this happened.

 

[Luke2427]

What? Where you use the old Calvinistic tactic of calling me a Pelagian?

I guess when you can't win an argument with logic and facts you can just call folks names can't you? Real mature.

I am not a Pelagian, I have never believed man has within himself the ability to reach God. No, if God had not revealed himself to us, we would all be lost without any hope.

But I do believe lost man can respond to God, just as Adam and Eve came to God when he called them. They were lost in their sins when this happened.

No not that part- you are a pelagian but that is not the part you should respond to.

This part:

That;s not what the Bible teaches is it?? Thou hast said in thy HEART- I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.



Quote:
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Quote:
God didn't create Satan evil, Satan was part of the six day creation that God declared very good. But, like us, Satan was given free will and chose to freely sin.
Yea, but it was IN HIM before it was OUT of him, wasn't it?

 

[Luke2427]

We are born with the ability to sin, just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin. Yet, they were "very good" until they actually sinned.

You don't get it, you are not a bank robber until you rob a bank. You are not a sinner until you actually sin. We all have the ability to rob a bank, but we do not become bank robbers until we actually commit this act.

Even Satan was "perfect" until he actually sinned.

That;s not what the Bible teaches is it?? (That you are not a sinner until you actually sin) Using your own Satan analogy-
Thou hast said in thy HEART- I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Quote:
God didn't create Satan evil, Satan was part of the six day creation that God declared very good. But, like us, Satan was given free will and chose to freely sin.

Yea, but it was IN HIM before it was OUT of him, wasn't it?

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[Winman]

Yea, but it was IN HIM before it was OUT of him, wasn't it?

Is that what I am to respond to? I don't even know what you are saying.

I am not a Pelagian. Here is the basic definition.

Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (AD 354 – AD 420/440), although he denied, at least at some point in his life, many of the doctrines associated with his name. It is the belief that original sin did not taint Human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid.

I am not a Pelagian, and anybody who has read my posts and truly understands Pelagianism would know that. I have repeatedly said that unless God revealed himself to man, natural man would never conceive of the gospel in a million years. So, I absolutely believe man needs Divine aid to be saved and have always said so.

Show me where I have ever said man could be saved without God first revealing himself to man. Good luck finding that.

No, you call names because you can't support your doctrine with scripture. You take verses that are not even speaking of faith and try to say they show regeneration before faith.

But I have shown you numerous scriptures that clearly say you cannot have life until you believe.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I have much plain scripture to support my view. You do not. And you actually teach that a person can have life before they trust in Christ. Unbelieveable.

 

[Luke2427]

Is that what I am to respond to? I don't even know what you are saying.

You said a person is not a sinner until they sin and then you used the Devil to support your claim .

But I took your very passage and showed you that his sin was IN HIM a long time before it was committed.

 

[Winman]

That;s not what the Bible teaches is it?? (That you are not a sinner until you actually sin) Using your own Satan analogy-
Thou hast said in thy HEART- I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

This confirms what I said. Satan had to actually commit a sin to be a sinner. He was perfect until he exalted himself in his heart.

And Satan had knowledge, he lived in the very presence of God. We have to believe by faith because we have never seen God. Satan did not have this excuse. He knew better.

 

[Winman]

You said a person is not a sinner until they sin and then you used the Devil to support your claim .

But I took your very passage and showed you that his sin was IN HIM a long time before it was committed.

No, he was not a sinner until he chose to rebel against God (the word of God says he was "perfect"). He knew who God is, and so do all the other angels.

Luke 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Satan was a beautiful and powerful angel. He knew he was not God. But he had free will and decided to rebel against God.

We do the same thing. None of us obeys God all the time, even Christians. We often choose to disobey God. God does not cause this, we do this of our own free will and choice.

Your doctrine is absurd, it makes God responsible for sin and lets man off the hook.

 

[Luke2427]

This confirms what I said. Satan had to actually commit a sin to be a sinner. He was perfect until he exalted himself in his heart.

And Satan had knowledge, he lived in the very presence of God. We have to believe by faith because we have never seen God. Satan did not have this excuse. He knew better.

He was a sinner before he committed sin, Winman. He said some things "in his heart" before he ever committed a single outward sin.

He did what he did because he was what he was.

He was perfect until sin was found IN HIM.

He was not perfect until he committed sin. He was perfect until sin was IN HIM.

Your position is absurd. How can one sin before he has it in his heart? It doesn't make sense.

Rebellion is bound in the heart of a child.

I have five- I can tell you they come forth from the womb rebels and self-willed. But Solomon said as much- I am sure that will not satisfy you.

 

[Winman]

He was a sinner before he committed sin, Winman. He said some things "in his heart" before he ever committed a single outward sin.

He did what he did because he was what he was.

He was perfect until sin was found IN HIM.

He was not perfect until he committed sin. He was perfect until sin was IN HIM.

Your position is absurd. How can one sin before he has it in his heart? It doesn't make sense.

Rebellion is bound in the heart of a child.

I have five- I can tell you they come forth from the womb rebels and self-willed. But Solomon said as much- I am sure that will not satisfy you.

Sinning in your heart is actually doing something. Jesus said if a man looks on a woman to lust after her in his heart he has committed adultery with her.

As a Christian, we can do the same. We can go online and look at porn if we choose to. That is a sin. Just because we don't commit physical fornication does not mean it is not a sin. We are only supposed to look on our wife. We are only supposed to think on our wife.

You could hate someone and not outwardly show it. That is still sin.

I do agree with you there are verses that show men start to sin at a very early age. But there are many scriptures that show that man is not born that way.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The scriptures say God hath made man upright. But note they have "sought out" many inventions.

The scriptures say man corrupted himself. You cannot corrupt something that is evil, the very definition of corrupt means to defile, to destroy, to pervert.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

The earth was corrupt. Why? Because (for) all flesh had corrupted his way. The world became corrupt because men chose to do evil.

By the way, you Calvinists love to use these verses to prove Total Depravity. But Genesis shows men called on God.

Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Calvinism teaches men will never call on God, but the scriptures show the opposite.