Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[annsni]

So that is all of the mental faculties needed to understand salvation? My son was talking at 9 months, and as a experiment done on a very thread here I laid out the plan of salvation to him and asked him what he thought of it. I reported back here his answer was (while pointing) "my shoes"

What about those aborted? "Let us reason together" says the Lord. What is required to reason?
The guy in the woods can reason, understand, comprehend. There is no biblical support for an infant to do this.

But the man in the woods has not 'heard' so he is sinless according to Winman.

No, I believe that man is sinful from birth and the ONLY reason any one of us is saved because of the grace of God. The faith we have is because of Him. God knows the hearts and can speak to the hearts of even the babies yet born or never to be born. I believe they have a soul that can be drawn to Him just as any other soul can be drawn to Him.

 

[annsni]

He does...1 Corinthians 2:14

That clearly shows that regeneration preceeds faith.

 

[Winman]

Yet not one person ever in history has been righteous save one. We are sinful from the time of conception to the time of death. Scripture is clear on that. Yes, babies are born sinners - else they could not sin.

We are born with the ability to sin, just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin. Yet, they were "very good" until they actually sinned.

You don't get it, you are not a bank robber until you rob a bank. You are not a sinner until you actually sin. We all have the ability to rob a bank, but we do not become bank robbers until we actually commit this act.

Even Satan was "perfect" until he actually sinned.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God didn't create Satan evil, Satan was part of the six day creation that God declared very good. But, like us, Satan was given free will and chose to freely sin.

 

[Luke2427]

Man, are you heard headed! I posted an entire blog from someone else on this passage, and it's also apparent you didn't even read my last response to you. The text has nothing to do with regeneration!!!!!!!
With your desire for abrasiveness, win at all cost and rudeness...I think at this point it's probably better to drop this with you.

This is what YOUR commentary- not mine- I would not use someone so Arminian- YOUR commentary says as Ann has pointed out to you.

Verse 14. But the natural man] yucikov, The animal man-the man who is in a mere state of nature, and lives under the influence of his animal passions; for the word yuch, which we often translate soul, means the lower and sensitive part of man, in opposition to nouv, the understanding or rational part. The Latins use anima to signify these lower passions; and animus to signify the higher. The person in question is not only one who either has had no spiritual teaching, or has not profited by it; but one who lives for the present world, having no respect to spiritual or eternal things.

This yucikov, or animal man, is opposed to the pneumatikov, or spiritual man: and, as this latter is one who is under the influence of the Spirit of God, so the former is one who is without that influence.

The apostle did speak of those high and sublime spiritual things to these animal men; but he explained them to those which were spiritual. He uses this word in this sense, chap. iii. 1; ix. 11; and particularly in verse 15 of the present chapter: He that is spiritual judgeth all things. But the natural man-The apostle appears to give this-as a reason why he explained those deep spiritual things to spiritual men; because the animal man-the man who is in a state of nature, without the regenerating grace of the Spirit of God, receiveth not the things of the Spirit-neither apprehends nor comprehends them: he has no relish for them; he considers it the highest wisdom to live for this world. Therefore these spiritual things are foolishness to him; for while he is in his animal state he cannot see their excellency, because they are spiritually discerned, and he has no spiritual mind.

You are hard headed sir- not me. You ahve YET to yield that your own commentary says that the "natural man" of 2:14 is without the regenerating grace of God.

 

[Luke2427]

We are born with the ability to sin, just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin. Yet, they were "very good" until they actually sinned.

This is outright Pelagianism. Webdog- be careful when you unite with Winman- I'm not saying you have- but in case you are tempted to do so- be mindful that he is a Pelagian and you rightly distance yourself from Pelagianism.

You don't get it, you are not a bank robber until you rob a bank. You are not a sinner until you actually sin. We all have the ability to rob a bank, but we do not become bank robbers until we actually commit this act.

Even Satan was "perfect" until he actually sinned.

That;s not what the Bible teaches is it?? Thou hast said in thy HEART- I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God didn't create Satan evil, Satan was part of the six day creation that God declared very good. But, like us, Satan was given free will and chose to freely sin.

Yea, but it was IN HIM before it was OUT of him, wasn't it?

 

[webdog]

That clearly shows that regeneration preceeds faith.

Sure it does

 

[webdog]

But the man in the woods has not 'heard' so he is sinless according to Winman.

Where did he say that? You know that is not true per Romans 1.

 

[webdog]

This is what YOUR commentary- not mine- I would not use someone so Arminian- YOUR commentary says as Ann has pointed out to you.

You are hard headed sir- not me. You ahve YET to yield that your own commentary says that the "natural man" of 2:14 is without the regenerating grace of God.

I see, so we have to use bigger fonts. Very well...

The animal man-the man who is in a mere state of nature, and lives under the influence of his animal passions...for while he is in his animal state he cannot see their excellency, because they are spiritually discerned, and he has no spiritual mind.

 

[webdog]

This is outright Pelagianism. Webdog- be careful when you unite with Winman- I'm not saying you have- but in case you are tempted to do so- be mindful that he is a Pelagian and you rightly distance yourself from Pelagianism.

We've also been down this road, my Roman Catholic friend

 

[Luke2427]

This is what YOUR commentary- not mine- I would not use someone so Arminian- YOUR commentary says as Ann has pointed out to you.
I see, so we have to use bigger fonts. Very well...

The animal man-the man who is in a mere state of nature, and lives under the influence of his animal passions

Yes, dear Webdog- that describes a person who is WITHOUT THE REGENERATING GRACE OF GOD doesn't it?

 

[Luke2427]

We've also been down this road, my Roman Catholic friend

No, your roman Catholic anecdote was silly and weak. Look up Pelagianism and what Winman said is the VERY DEFINITION of it.

 

[webdog]

Yes, dear Webdog- that describes a person who is WITHOUT THE REGENERATING GRACE OF GOD doesn't it?

No it doesn't...
for while he is in his animal state he cannot see their excellency, because they are spiritually discerned, and he has no spiritual mind.

 

[webdog]

No, your roman Catholic anecdote was silly and weak. Look up Pelagianism and what Winman said is the VERY DEFINITION of it.

Like I said, sharing any one aspect of a theology or system does not equate you with that system. You have been schooled on this...please learn. According to your own logic I can refer to you as an Arminian since you agreed that Arminianism shares a common belief with Calvinism.

 

[Luke2427]

No it doesn't...
for while he is in his animal state he cannot see their excellency, because they are spiritually discerned, and he has no spiritual mind.

When is he in MERELY his animal state?

When he is lost. If you cannot see this I do not know why we bother trying to get you to see anything.

I am telling you that Adam Clarke, whose whole commentary set I have here on my bookshelf, did not believe that the "natural man" of 2:14 was regenerate. But Adam Clarke himself told you and you will not believe though Adma Clarke rose from the dead to tell you.

He said- "without the regenerating grace of God"

How on EARTH can you POSSIBLY not see this?

Do you know of a planet where a Christian can be a Christian who is WITHOUT THE REGENERATING GRACE OF GOD??

EVERYONE SEES IT BUT YOU.

 

[Luke2427]

Like I said, sharing any one aspect of a theology or system does not equate you with that system. You have been schooled on this...please learn. According to your own logic I can refer to you as an Arminian since you agreed that Arminianism shares a common belief with Calvinism.

Winman
We are born with the ability to sin, just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin. Yet, they were "very good" until they actually sinned.

"What are Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism?"

Answer: Pelagius was a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s A.D. Pelagius taught that human beings were born innocent, without the stain of original or inherited sin. He believed that God created every human soul directly and therefore every human soul was originally free from sin.

Plain as the nose on your face.

 

[Winman]

1 Corintians 2:14 does not even mention faith, so you cannot use this verse to prove that regeneration precedes faith.

Look, I posted half a dozen verses that all say you must believe to have "life".

Isn't this what we are asking about, "life"?

Luke and others say a person has life before they believe. The scriptures repeatedly show you cannot have life until you believe.

The scriptures speak of a man being "enlightened", they speak of of being "illuminated", but they do not speak of being made alive in order to believe.

The scriptures say that Jesus lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The scriptures say men were in darkness. This is why men are blind, they are in darkness. But Jesus was a light that showed truth to man.

Matt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Ever wake up in the middle of the night when all the lights are out? You are blind, you can't see anything. But turn on the light and you can see. It is not that we weren't able to see, we were in darkness. Light is necessary for sight.

Jesus said those who are taught and learn of the Father come to him.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is how unregenerate man gets saved, he gets illuminated, he gets enlightened, he gets taught by the Father. Without this revelation from God, no man would be saved. The natural man would never conceive the gospel on his own.

But once the gospel is revealed to a man he can chose to believe it or not. And if he believes, then and only then is he made alive.

For the tenth time, you cannot have "life" until your sins are removed.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, babies are born sinners - else they could not sin.

Not true. Adam sinned but he was not born a sinner. He was created pure and without the stain of sin.

Adam is proof that a person without a sin nature or or any tainting of sin can sin.


BTW..We die physically because of Adam's sin but we die spiritually because of our own sin, not the sins of another.

 

[Winman]

Luke unsuccessfully tried to argue that regeneration is some sort of incubation. Why? Because he knows quite well that the scriptures clearly say many times you cannot have life until you believe. Of course, this destroys Total Depravity as Calvinism defines it.

But... he's trying to save Total Depravity. That is the one and only reason for this theory. He tries to argue being born again is different from salvation which is ridiculous. Jesus said those that believe are "passed" from death to life. We are saved the moment we believe, it is not a process.

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

 

[Luke2427]

1 Corintians 2:14 does not even mention faith, so you cannot use this verse to prove that regeneration precedes faith.

Faith is the receiving of the things of the Spirit of God which the natural man clearly cannot do.

Look, I posted half a dozen verses that all say you must believe to have "life".

No you haven't not a single one. Not one verse you post says anything of the sort.

Isn't this what we are asking about, "life"?

Luke and others say a person has life before they believe. The scriptures repeatedly show you cannot have life until you believe.

We have already proven to you otherwise, haven't we?

The scriptures speak of a man being "enlightened", they speak of of being "illuminated", but they do not speak of being made alive in order to believe.

That enlightenment is what brings life (much like the sun gives life) and eventually culminates in the eternal salvation of a soul.

The scriptures say that Jesus lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The scriptures say men were in darkness. This is why men are blind, they are in darkness. But Jesus was a light that showed truth to man.

You really do well when you are making a point that we all agree on. It's when you make points of controversy that you come up with madness.

Matt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Ever wake up in the middle of the night when all the lights are out? You are blind, you can't see anything. But turn on the light and you can see. It is not that we weren't able to see, we were in darkness. Light is necessary for sight.

Jesus said those who are taught and learn of the Father come to him.

Yep and those taught who learn of the Father are able to learn of the Father because they have been transformed from a natural state to a spiritual one because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God and learning of the Father is a "thing of the Spirit of God".

Once they have been transformed so that they can receive the things of the Spirit of God then they are able to learn of the Father, aren't they.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Covered that.

This is how unregenerate man gets saved, he gets illuminated, he gets enlightened, he gets taught by the Father. Without this revelation from God, no man would be saved. The natural man would never conceive the gospel on his own.

Bingo. But since the carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God neither indeed can it be (Roman8) and since the antural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God- NEITHER CAN HE- then there must be a transformation before being taught by the Father. That transformation is regeneration.

But once the gospel is revealed to a man he can chose to believe it or not. And if he believe, then and only then is he made alive.

For the tenth time, you cannot have "life" until your sins are removed.

I sure hope there won't be an eleventh- the latter times are no better supported than the earlier times.

 

[Winman]

Not true. Adam sinned but he was not born a sinner. He was created pure and without the stain of sin.

Adam is proof that a person without a sin nature or or any tainting of sin can sin.


BTW..We die physically because of Adam's sin but we die spiritually because of our own sin, not the sins of another.

Excellent point Amy. Satan was also created perfect until he chose to sin. I also agree with your second statement.

Now, this is just speculation on my part, but I think God had to curse man to die, else he would be happy to live forever in a sinful state. When God cursed the ground, he said something very interesting, he said "for thy sake".

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Now, I could be wrong on this, but it almost seems God cursed the ground for man's own good. If God had not cursed the ground, man would have been happy to keep on living in sin. But it is the destruction that sin causes that is one of the greatest incentives for man to seek God. If we did not die (physically), would we seek God?

Like I said, just speculation, but I think this is reinforced by what God said about the tree of life.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, I believe God cursed the ground for our own good, so that we would seek him.