Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[annsni]

You do realize what you are saying here don't you? If God will not allow a child who he has regenerated to die before coming to faith, then all children who die before they are old enough to express faith in Christ are lost and go to hell.

So, are you willing to tell every parent who has lost a baby or young child that their child is burning in hell? Because that is exactly what is happening if what you just wrote is true.

Or maybe God doesn't need a person to have full comprehension of the English language (or whatever the child's native language to be) and the child HAS responded in the way that they were able. It's the same as an adult who is mentally like a child and cannot comprehend it all - yet their hearts can still be turned towards God.

And I have had two babies die before birth. If they are burning in hell, I have full assurance that they are there rightly because I trust my God in all of His judgments.

 

[webdog]

Or maybe God doesn't need a person to have full comprehension of the English language (or whatever the child's native language to be) and the child HAS responded in the way that they were able. It's the same as an adult who is mentally like a child and cannot comprehend it all - yet their hearts can still be turned towards God.

Where is this alluded to in Scripture? The Bible tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This takes the mental faculties to do so.

 

[Winman]

Those who are born again are born again because God has purposed to save them- it is impossible that the purposes of God could be thwarted.

To be honest, however, I don't know that I agree that folks are often born again for years before they come to Christ.

I think there can be a period of spiritual incubation before the new birth where there is spiritual life growing but not yet a new birth- and that may indeed take years for whatever purposes God so chooses.

But it seems to me that Scripture teaches that once a person is born from above so that he can receive the things of the Spirit of God (namely the Gospel) that he does shortly thereafter- often times immediately.

Spiritual incubation? Wow, once you go off the tracks you just spin off into more error.

You do not have one verse to present that shows regeneration comes before faith. I and others have presented at least half a dozen verses that all show faith precedes life. Here is one for instance.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This verse says the person that believes has life, and the person who believes not shall not see life.

So, you cannot have life until you believe. You cannot be in some stage of incubation or development of life, until you believe you are DEAD. There is no such thing as 25% dead (or alive) or 50% dead (or alive), until you believe you are 100% DEAD. You are either dead, or alive, there is nothing in between.

Again, Calvinism's problem is they don't understand what spiritual death is. They try to compare it to physical death. It is true that someone who is physically dead cannot function, but spritually dead people can. To be spiritually dead means to be separated from God in your sins, but it does not mean a person lacks ability.

The story of Cain shows this. We know Cain is lost, but God said he could do well and would be accepted. God does not accept evil, and so this proves the spiritually dead man can do some things acceptable with God.

That spiritual death speaks of judgment and not inability is shown by Jesus.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

A person cannot be partially alive as you try to say. Until they believe they are DEAD in their sins. You cannot be alive until your sins are forgiven, and you cannot have your sins forgiven until you believe.

And notice Jesus said "if" to these persons. There is no such thing as "if" in Calvinism. You are either elect and must believe, or unelect and cannot believe.

But Jesus said "if" to these unregenerate persons, showing that the unregenerate can believe.

 

[Luke2427]

What is there to respond to, Luke? I posted another person who agrees with me completely. Even Clarke's summary of the chapter supports my understanding of natural man IN CONTEXT. Like I"ve said repeatedly it's about a worldly mindset vs. a spiritual one. Of course the unregenerate are going to be worldly and think like that...BUT...a regenerate person can do the same, and the church at Corinth WAS. THAT is the main purpose for Paul's letter. It is not about regenerate vs. unregenerate like you are trying to make it.

They way you bicker and antagonize is not one of Paul's requirements for the pastorate, brother! Do you know what "above reproach" means...and how would your congregation feel reading your posts on the baptistboard? Do they? Have you been a pastor long?

15 years in the preaching ministry 7 years in full time pastorate.

I've baptized 39 in the past four years. I baptized 30 in three years when I was a full time youth pastor ten years ago.

Every church I've ever ministered in has at least doubled in size.

My last church before this one went from a budget of 70,000 a year to 250,000 a year in two years. I've been at the present church for a year and three months and our facilities are packed for worship and the overflow is half full nearly every Sunday. We are looking now into a building program.

But thanks for the advice. How is your ministry doing?

Adam Clarke, the Arminian scholar you kept referring to, even HE said that "natural man" in 2:14 is unregenerate and without spiritual mind. You keep twisting his words but NOBODY buys it but you. Amy fought with you vehemently at the start and even SHE can see you are wrong now.

You may well be the only Christian on earth at this point who reads that the "natural man" in 2:14 could be saved.

But that does not deter you does it? I wouldn't think so since you say that Jonathan Edwards is NOT ORTHODOX and declare unabashedly that it does not matter what great heroes of the faith throughout history think about passages of Scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

You do realize what you are saying here don't you? If God will not allow a child who he has regenerated to die before coming to faith, then all children who die before they are old enough to express faith in Christ are lost and go to hell.

That does not follow. I have no idea why you would demand that one necessitates the other.

 

[Luke2427]

Spiritual incubation? Wow, once you go off the tracks you just spin off into more error.

You do not have one verse to present that shows regeneration comes before faith. I and others have presented at least half a dozen verses that all show faith precedes life. Here is one for instance.

Yea, I've presented about a dozen- whenever I do you run away and don't deal with them. Then you pop in a week later with posts like this one.

 

[Winman]

Or maybe God doesn't need a person to have full comprehension of the English language (or whatever the child's native language to be) and the child HAS responded in the way that they were able. It's the same as an adult who is mentally like a child and cannot comprehend it all - yet their hearts can still be turned towards God.

And I have had two babies die before birth. If they are burning in hell, I have full assurance that they are there rightly because I trust my God in all of His judgments.

You can't be serious. You believe it just to send a baby who is not even aware of himself/herself to hell to be tormented for eternity?

Babies are not born sinners. You have to commit sin to be a sinner. You are not a liar until you lie. You are not a thief until you steal.

Man, I would hate to see if you ran our justice system, you would arrest folks for crimes they haven't even committed!

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

God does not punish infants and little children who do not know what they are doing. Yes, a small child can do wrong things, but they are not aware of their actions and do not fully comprehend their responsibility before God. The same is true of those who are mentally handicapped, or truly insane.

 

[Winman]

Yea, I've presented about a dozen- whenever I do you run away and don't deal with them. Then you pop in a week later with posts like this one.

You have not presented a single verse that clearly shows regeneration precedes faith. Not one.

Show me even one verse.

 

[Luke2427]

You can't be serious. You believe it just to send a baby who is not even aware of himself/herself to hell to be tormented for eternity?

Babies are not born sinners. You have to commit sin to be a sinner. You are not a liar until you lie. You are not a thief until you steal.

That's not at all true. It is not only unbiblical but it is illogical.

A man doesn't just up and sin from a pure heart. He sins because of what he is in his heart.

A man is a liar at heart long before he tells his first lie.

Jesus said clearly that what comes out of a man is that which defiles him. It is IN him long before it comes OUT of him.

Man, I would hate to see if you ran our justice system, you would arrest folks for crimes they haven't even committed!

No, Winman, you think that Almighty God must meet your standards of justice as if he in answerable to you- as if what you think is just is what God must also think. But your standards of justice, just like everything about you is depraved, corrupt, evil, wicked. That is the case with all mankind.

You would cast God into hell for damning anybody.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

God does not punish infants and little children who do not know what they are doing. Yes, a small child can do wrong things, but they are not aware of their actions and do not fully comprehend their responsibility before God. The same is true of those who are mentally handicapped, or truly insane.

This is your habit, it appears- to present a passage and demand it say something that suits you when it says nothing of the sort.

 

[Winman]

That does not follow. I have no idea why you would demand that one necessitates the other.

Simple logic dictates it. Read the comment.

Since God is also in control of our death, why would he regenerate someone He knows will die? The answer is that would be purposeless and if the reformed view of regeneration is correct, then God would not bring them to death in the middle of His work in them to salvation and ruin His own work.

If this statement is true, then all babies and little children who die before they can trust Christ are damned to hell. According to this reasoning, God will not allow anyone he regenerates to die before they express faith.

Therefore all babies and little children that die who lack the ability to express faith are lost and go to hell.

You have to have knowledge and understanding to have faith. Calvinists do not understand faith any better than they understand spiritual death.

 

[Luke2427]

You have not presented a single verse that clearly shows regeneration precedes faith. Not one.

Show me even one verse.

Yes I have and you are welcome to peruse through this thread and find them- but you popping in once a week and demanding that I repeat to you everything that I already painstakingly proved to others, is silly.

 

[Winman]

Maybe it never occured to some here, but why did Adam and Eve die?

Because they had the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You have to understand what you are doing to be held accountable. The scriptures say God "winked" at sin before the law came. Adam and Eve were just like little children before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They did not understand the difference between good and evil, they did not even realize they were naked. It was this knowledge that condemned them for their sin.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

I believe Jesus is speaking of all the Word of God in John 15:22. Jesus is the Word of God, all scripture is his words. If God had not revealed his word to us, we would not be accountable for our sins. But that God has been speaking to us from the creation, all men are accountable and responsible before God.

 

[webdog]

15 years in the preaching ministry 7 years in full time pastorate.

I've baptized 39 in the past four years. I baptized 30 in three years when I was a full time youth pastor ten years ago.

Every church I've ever ministered in has at least doubled in size.

My last church before this one went from a budget of 70,000 a year to 250,000 a year in two years. I've been at the present church for a year and three months and our facilities are packed for worship and the overflow is half full nearly every Sunday. We are looking now into a building program.

Knowing this, I have to say I'm disappointed. Do your members frequent this board?

But thanks for the advice. How is your ministry doing?

Mine's going great...I'm planting them seeds with the pre-schoolers.

You may well be the only Christian on earth at this point who reads that the "natural man" in 2:14 could be saved.

Man, are you heard headed! I posted an entire blog from someone else on this passage, and it's also apparent you didn't even read my last response to you. The text has nothing to do with regeneration!!!!!!!
With your desire for abrasiveness, win at all cost and rudeness...I think at this point it's probably better to drop this with you.

 

[annsni]

Where is this alluded to in Scripture? The Bible tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This takes the mental faculties to do so.

And I've seen a 6 month old do sign language. So children DO have the mental facilities to do so.

But let's go to that guy who has never heard the Gospel. He has lived in the woods for his entire life. CAN he be saved? I say yes. God can reach him just as much as He can reach anyone. I believe the same with children and those who are mentally disabled. If God wills, they will be saved.

 

[Winman]

Yes I have and you are welcome to peruse through this thread and find them- but you popping in once a week and demanding that I repeat to you everything that I already painstakingly proved to others, is silly.

I am not going to peruse anything. If you think you have even one single verse that shows regeneration precedes faith, then show it.

Fact is, you don't have a single verse to support your position.

 

[webdog]

And I've seen a 6 month old do sign language. So children DO have the mental facilities to do so.

So that is all of the mental faculties needed to understand salvation? My son was talking at 9 months, and as a experiment done on a very thread here I laid out the plan of salvation to him and asked him what he thought of it. I reported back here his answer was (while pointing) "my shoes"

What about those aborted? "Let us reason together" says the Lord. What is required to reason?

But let's go to that guy who has never heard the Gospel. He has lived in the woods for his entire life. CAN he be saved? I say yes. God can reach him just as much as He can reach anyone. I believe the same with children and those who are mentally disabled. If God wills, they will be saved.

The guy in the woods can reason, understand, comprehend. There is no biblical support for an infant to do this.

 

[webdog]

I am not going to peruse anything. If you think you have even one single verse that shows regeneration precedes faith, then show it.

Fact is, you don't have a single verse to support your position.

He does...1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[Luke2427]

I am not going to peruse anything. If you think you have even one single verse that shows regeneration precedes faith, then show it.

Fact is, you don't have a single verse to support your position.

Fact is you don't know what facts are.

I Jon 5:1 is one of about a dozen verses I've used in this thread alone.

But frankly, if you are going to pop in hear once a week it is rude of you to demand we do the effort for you of catching you up. You catch yourself up.

 

[annsni]

You can't be serious. You believe it just to send a baby who is not even aware of himself/herself to hell to be tormented for eternity?

Babies are not born sinners. You have to commit sin to be a sinner. You are not a liar until you lie. You are not a thief until you steal.

Man, I would hate to see if you ran our justice system, you would arrest folks for crimes they haven't even committed!

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

God does not punish infants and little children who do not know what they are doing. Yes, a small child can do wrong things, but they are not aware of their actions and do not fully comprehend their responsibility before God. The same is true of those who are mentally handicapped, or truly insane.

Yet not one person ever in history has been righteous save one. We are sinful from the time of conception to the time of death. Scripture is clear on that. Yes, babies are born sinners - else they could not sin.

 

[Winman]

That babies and small children are not able to express faith is freely admitted by Reformed churches. Here is a statement from a Presbyterian church.

Some may wonder why we baptize infants and children who are so tiny and unable to express their own faith. Yes, it is true that infants cannot exercise personal faith. We all believe that. It's not that we believe that Presbyterian babies are smarter and more able to believe! Babies simply cannot express their own faith.