Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[Luke2427]

The reason for this whole Corinthian church debate was because Luke said Paul was addressing the unsaved.

No I didn't. I never said that nor did I ever believe that Paul was ADDRESSING the unsaved, did I?

I said the NATURAL MAN is speaking of the unregenerate.

I am glad you finally see it that way.

 

[Luke2427]

I can't speak for Amy but she might agree as long as you agree that this would be the the same as saying; Paul was speaking to the saved ABOUT the unsaved.

In reading this thread, isn't that what was is really being debated at this point, and how we got to this verse?

I agree that verse 14 was describing the unsaved, but I also agree with Amy that regeneration is being born again.

You are absolutely correct. Regeneration is being born again.

 

[Luke2427]

No I didn't. I never said that nor did I ever believe that Paul was ADDRESSING the unsaved, did I?

I said the NATURAL MAN is speaking of the unregenerate.

I am glad you finally see it that way.

This began when Webdog said that the natural man is in 2:14 NOT referring to unregenerate man- but rather saved people who are dealing with their nature.

Keep it in context. Paul was speaking to believers at Corinth who were living according to their "natural" ways and were divided over the leaders within using human logic and intelligence. In Christ the church should be united, but when using our "natural man" to discern spiritual matters we fail. That is the intent of that passage, not pre faith regeneration.
Also, that verse does not say one has to be born again to understand salvation but God's wisdom pertaining to how a believer should live and conduct themselves.

Now you see that he was wrong. I am very happy- not because it is becoming clear that he was wrong and I was right- I don't care much about that- but that it shows that Christian debate on Baptistboard can change minds.

What I said was:

That is certainly NOT the context of that passage at all.

The chapter begins- "And I brethren, when I came to you..."

Paul is defending his Apostleship here by reminding them how God used him to convert them.

He argues that it was not by words of man's wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and power.

He speaks of the princes of this world not knowing the wisdom of God for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Then he tells us who CAN have this wisdom and who cannot. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God- neither can he..."

That is not speaking of carnal Christians there AT ALL, Webdog- at ALL.

It is speaking of how God used Paul to bring people in Corinth to Christ.

That I have said that Paul is addressing unsaved people is not accurate at all.

I said the opposite and clarified several times.

The debate did not start by me saying that Paul is addressing unsaved people, did it? It started when Webdog misinterpreted that passage saying that the "natural man" there represented saved people.

I am very thankful that Ann was able to correct that thinking in you.

 

[webdog]

This began when Webdog said that the natural man is in 2:14 NOT referring to unregenerate man- but rather saved people who are dealing with their nature.




Now you see that he was wrong. I am very happy- not because it is becoming clear that he was wrong and I was right- I don't care much about that- but that it shows that Christian debate on Baptistboard can change minds.

The theme of this section of Paul’s letter is not “sinner” versus “saint,” or the “unregenerate” in contrast to the “regenerate.” Rather, as we have carefully documented above, the distinction is between “human wisdom” and “divine revelation.” In the original setting, the “spiritual” man was the one upon whom the gift of “inspiration” was bestowed. In principle, to us it would be the testimony of the Holy Writings (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
On the other hand, then, the “natural” man is the one who seeks whatever union he hopes to gain with the Creator by means of his own arrogant, self-serving intellect. And the kindred descendants of the ancient Greeks are legion.
http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...rinthians-2-14

 

[Luke2427]

The theme of this section of Paul’s letter is not “sinner” versus “saint,” or the “unregenerate” in contrast to the “regenerate.” Rather, as we have carefully documented above, the distinction is between “human wisdom” and “divine revelation.” In the original setting, the “spiritual” man was the one upon whom the gift of “inspiration” was bestowed. In principle, to us it would be the testimony of the Holy Writings (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
On the other hand, then, the “natural” man is the one who seeks whatever union he hopes to gain with the Creator by means of his own arrogant, self-serving intellect. And the kindred descendants of the ancient Greeks are legion.
http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...rinthians-2-14

And????

Who is this and are you finally abandoning Clarke's comments now seeing that Clarke did believe what I said about 2:14?

 

[Robert Snow]

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

Now you've got it. Except, the Calvinistic spin on this is wrong! The "whosoever" are the ones that respond to the Spirit's call when the Gospel is preached!

Why do Calvinists make this so difficult. I've know Calvinism to be a false doctrine since my days at Tennessee Temple University.

I'm not saying that someone who believes this doctrine is without Christ. No, that's not the case, they are just wrong on this point.

 

[Luke2427]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone on this thread said Paul was addressing the unsaved.

But my main point was I agree with you about regeneration.

You are right again, Stephen- nobody said that.

And I too agree that regeneration and the new birth are the exact same thing.

 

[webdog]

And????

Who is this and are you finally abandoning Clarke's comments now seeing that Clarke did believe what I said about 2:14?

Why not read it? I'm not abandoning anything...Clarke's commentary on the whole book and chapter 2 align with what I believe. You are the one focused on defining "natural". We are in this whole ordeal because you used this as a proof text to prove regeneration precedes faith. You do not even have a solid understanding of regeneration let alone trying to define a term using it.

 

[Robert Snow]

The reason Webdog makes this error often is because he thinks that he does not need to respect the opinions of scholars and heroes of the faith...

You know, I've read Hebrews chapter 11 many times, and I don't recall seeing Spurgeon, Edwards, or any other of your so-called heroes mentioned.

It could be that they are heroes to you Calvinists because they agree with what you believe.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is the post by Luke that started the discussion on 1 Cor. 2:14.

Posted by Luke
Do you not know that chapter 2 begins by speaking of how he CAME to them?

What condition did he find them in?

What did God use Paul to do them?

They were lost- God used Paul to save them, didn't He? This was Paul's proof that he was an Apostle called of God, wasn't it?

This is what sparked the whole thing. The Corinthian church was not lost.

 

[Robert Snow]

PM- and I did not invite you to fight- I actually think it is crooked for you to twist it that way. You asked me do I "run my face" to other people this way or just hide behind my monitor and do it.

I said when I withstand people I look them in the eye and that if you would like to test that I will give you my address.

I said nothing about fighting. For you to misrepresent what I said in a PM on this public forum is not right.

Shut up before this 58 year old man whips both your hides! :tongue3: :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

You are absolutely correct. Regeneration is being born again.

Then how can a person be born again and not saved? You have that regeneration and salvation are different things.

 

[webdog]

Here is the post by Luke that started the discussion on 1 Cor. 2:14.


This is what sparked the whole thing. The Corinthian church was not lost.

Actually, reading his comment back I think what he meant to say is that they were lost, not at the time of writing to them, but when he first came. Initially it looked like he was saying they were lost when he wrote it. I may be wrong, but if this is the case it would have saved pages of typing from all parties involved.

Not saying I agree with his support of pre-faith regeneration using this text or even the "natural man" means unregenerate in every and all situations, particularly how Paul uses it in the text in question.

 

[Luke2427]

Now you've got it. Except, the Calvinistic spin on this is wrong! The "whosoever" are the ones that respond to the Spirit's call when the Gospel is preached!

Why do Calvinists make this so difficult. I've know Calvinism to be a false doctrine since my days at Tennessee Temple University.

I'm not saying that someone who believes this doctrine is without Christ. No, that's not the case, they are just wrong on this point.

Yes and they (the whosoever) come because the Father has given them to Christ.

 

[annsni]

I can't speak for Amy but she might agree as long as you agree that this would be the the same as saying; Paul was speaking to the saved ABOUT the unsaved.

In reading this thread, isn't that what was is really being debated at this point, and how we got to this verse?

I agree that verse 14 was describing the unsaved, but I also agree with Amy that regeneration is being born again.

Yep - in this case, he's speaking to the saved about the unsaved.

 

[Luke2427]

Here is the post by Luke that started the discussion on 1 Cor. 2:14.


This is what sparked the whole thing. The Corinthian church was not lost.

They WERE lost before Paul came to them. Paul started out saying chapter 2 saying "When I came..."

How were they when Paul came?

They were lost when Paul came to them.

That is the context. That is what v 14 is written in light of. That is what I said from the start and it is truly clear as day. That is why Steve said as much.

 

[Amy.G]

Actually, reading his comment back I think what he meant to say is that they were lost, not at the time of writing to them, but when he first came. Initially it looked like he was saying they were lost when he wrote it. I may be wrong, but if this is the case it would have saved pages of typing from all parties involved.

.
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[annsni]

Now you've got it. Except, the Calvinistic spin on this is wrong! The "whosoever" are the ones that respond to the Spirit's call when the Gospel is preached!

And no Calvinist will disagree with you here.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually, reading his comment back I think what he meant to say is that they were lost, not at the time of writing to them, but when he first came.

BINGO- and you contended that v 14 speaks of saved folks dealing with their nature.



I said no- He is talking ABOUT lost people.

You said no he wasn't and said I was unfit for the pastorate, blah, blah, blah...

I said several times along the way that he was speaking TO Christians ABOUT lost people, didn't I?

BTW, It is not what I "MEANT" to say- it is what I CLEARLY said.

Initially it looked like he was saying they were lost when he wrote it.

No, it did not look like that especially when I said several times he was talking TO saved people.

It could not have looked that way, could it?

I may be wrong, but if this is the case it would have saved pages of typing from all parties involved.

What would have saved several pages of typing is if you ahd not argued wrongly that the "natural man" in verse 14 is a saved man. That's the only thing that could have saved these several pages of typing.

 

[Luke2427]

Then how can a person be born again and not saved? You have that regeneration and salvation are different things.

Because salvation is a process.

For example- There is conviction- this may take a while, then there is faith then repentance, then salvation is complete.

There are several steps towards salvation. One is not lost one instant with no thoughts of God whatsoever and a split second later in the Kingdom.

There is a process that brings him along to Christ. For some it may take 5 minutes for others it may take five years.

Regeneration is the 1st step in the process.

That's why John said- "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

He did not believe until he had been born of God.

That's why Jesus said, "Except you be born again you CANNOT SEE the Kingdom..."

You can't see it, comprehend it.

Why?

Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he...

He cannot receive the Gospel, that is of the Spirit of God and he cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God while natural.

So he must be regenerated from above. Now he can see it. Now he can receive it. Now he can believe it. Now he can be saved.