Faith, where does it come "in" when someone is saved?

[Winman]

Calvinists don't deny the freedom of man to choose.

Of course they do, but then use circular arguments to say they don't.

Look, if man cannot choose Christ unless God regenerates him, then man does not have the freedom to choose.

If I am locked in a jail cell and you have the key, I cannot come out unless you let me. I do not have freedom. You can use circular arguments as all Calvinists do, but this is basically what it comes down to. According to Calvinism the unregenerate man is locked in a jail cell that he cannot escape, and God holds the key.

 

[jbh28]

The topic of this passage is salvation, not faith.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Paul repeatedly speaks of being saved here, of being quickened and being raised up.

Once and only once does he mention faith. The topic of this passage is salvation, not faith.

and that word "that" just happens to come right after the reference to faith.

 

[TCGreek]

A person must first receive Jesus through faith (John 1:12, 13; Acts 16:31).

 

[Luke2427]

[quote="Winman, post: 1536327"]Regeneration and salvation are the same thing. To be regenerated means to be made alive. It means to be born again, to have everlasting life. There is not one word in all of scripture to support your doctrine that regeneration and salvation are separate events.

Salvation and regeneration are two different words with two different meanings. There is not a reputable scholar in the history of the Christian church who would say otherwise.

One means to be made alive.

The other means to be delivered from.

That is simple, Winman. They do not mean the same thing and you do not get to make them synonyms to support your doctrine.

They do not mean the same thing any more than repentance and salvation mean the same thing.

I don't have to give you a verse to prove that repentance and salvation are not the same thing. They are not the same word and do not have the same definition. Just so I do not have to give a you a verse to prove that regeneration and salvation and the same thing. They are two different words with two plainly different definitions.

BTW, you still owe me a retraction, don't you? Ask and I'll point out yet again the two posts you owe me a response to.

That the dead can believe, and that the moment they do will be made alive is shown by Jesus himself.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Yes, the word of God is the very thing that makes alive as I have already proven to you several times in past exchanges.

Contrary to what you teach, Jesus himself said the dead can hear the voice of God, and those that hear (accept and believe) shall live.

Nope. That's what I've been telling you.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Yep. That's proof of what I am telling you. You must hear before you can believe. You hear because the voice of God awakens you to new life. That's regeneration before conversion, yet again.

This is much like the exchange where you kept quoting the verse out of John over and over again like that verse proved that believing comes before regeneration and then I proved to you that that verse does not say what you try to force it to say- and mysteriously you disappeared from the conversation rather than yielding.

Whatever you hold regeneration to be, it cannot mean life, because you do not have life until after you believe. And this must be so, because your sins cannot be taken away until you believe. And you cannot be spiritually alive and dead in your sins at the same time, that is impossible. But that would be the case if your doctrine is true.

Regeneration does mean life and that is plain to everyone I have ever spoken to but you.

John 20:31 says "and that believeing ye might have life". You have to first believe to be regenerated, that is, made alive. John 3:36 says he "that believeth" hath "everlasting life" and says he that "believeth not" shall "not see life". So believeing determines whether you will live or die. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite, Calvinism teaches that you must live to believe. This is absolute error.

This is your favorite verse to use on this subject. This is the one I have proven to you that you abuse so terribly in demanding that it teach what you want to say. It is your favorite verse because it is the only one you ahve that can even be misconstrued to mean what you want it to mean. I proved proved your error in the previous exchange we had on this subject.

 

[Winman]

and that word "that" just happens to come right after the reference to faith.

There have been debates on this passage for centuries. Many scholars say "that" refers to salvation, many say it refers to faith, and even a very few say it refers to grace.

The Calvinist will of course say it refers to faith because it supports their doctrine.

Fact is, the passage is about salvation, not faith. Here is a pretty good article from the other perspective.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/godgift.htm

 

[jbh28]

There have been debates on this passage for centuries. Many scholars say "that" refers to salvation, many say it refers to faith, and even a very few say it refers to grace.

The Calvinist will of course say it refers to faith because it supports their doctrine.

Fact is, the passage is about salvation, not faith. Here is a pretty good article from the other perspective.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/godgift.htm

It's not just Calvinist that believe that faith is included. I say that it's the whole package, faith included.

 

[Luke2427]

This is nonsense and you cannot show one word of scripture to support it.

No, your position that people who are dead in their trespasses and sins can believe is nonsense.

The Scripture is plain- "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE..."

There is just ONE of many, many Scriptures that prove this. But it would not matter if I gave you a thousand. You are antagonistic towards the Doctrines of Grace and will not yield though one rose from the dead and told you.

The whole idea is silly, according to your doctrine, you must be made alive so that you can then believe and receive life. If you already have life, why would you need to believe? You already have life. So, this is nonsense.

It is only nonsense to those who lack the intellectual ability to grasp it. It is extraordinarily simple to my children.

The barrier in your mind, the mental handicap that keeps you from getting it is, in part, your erroneous belief that regeneration and salvation are the same thing.

You will NEVER get it until you understand that different words have different meanings and you don't get to erase those meanings to suit your fancy.

Whether a man believes or not is a matter of the will. Those who choose to believe can.

Agreed. Dead men do not choose anything, however.

Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:



Jesus didn't say they couldn't believe, he said they "will not".

They will not because they can not.

Their will must be changed- their "want to" must be changed. That changing of the will is- regeneration.

They don't want to because they are evil. They are of their father the devil and his deeds they WILL do.

John 4:Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Again, Jesus said "will not".

Covered that. You don't understand the biblical doctrine of total depravity. Until you do you will remain in the dark on this matter.

Thomas was a believer, but he showed that believeing is a choice.

Believing is a choice. I dealt with that already.

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Believeing is a choice. It is a judgment. It is a judgment that another person is truthful and trustworthy or not. It is a choice. You can decide to trust or not to trust anyone.

If a stranger approached you and asked to borrow your car, you probably wouldn't do it (I wouldn't). Why? Because you do not know them and do not know if they will return your car. But you could decide to trust them if you choose to do so. Probably a poor decision, but you could do so, it is within your power.

If a family member asked to borrow your car, you would likely agree. Why? Because you know them and know they will take care of your car and return it safely. However, you could refuse. Trusting is a choice.

I already covered that above.

 

[Winman]

No, your position that people who are dead in their trespasses and sins can believe is nonsense.

I have shown you repeatedly that this is false. John 20:31 clearly says you must believe to have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

That you must believe to have life (regeneration) is shown many times in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Who should not perish but have everlasting life? He that believes.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Who is not condemned? He that believes.

I could show you many more. All of these verses speak of salvation, of receiving everlasting life. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not a salvation verse, it is speaking of understanding the deeper teachings of scripture. But the gospel is simple, even a child can understand it.

See, you have a problem with the Philipian jailer. He had not believed yet, so according to John 3:18 he was still condemned (he that believeth not is condemned already).

Now how in the world could he have been regenerated? Do you believe he could be regenerated and condemned at the same time? Ridiculous.

Calvinists claim regeneration is being made spiritually alive, but you are condemned until you believe, therefore you cannot be spiritually alive until after you believe. Therefore you cannot be regenerated until after you believe.

You ignore many verses that clearly teach you do not have life until you believe, and cling to a single verse that is not speaking of salvation.

Verses that teach you must first believe to have life

John 3:36
John 3:15,16
John 1:12
John 5:24
John 6:47
John 20:31
Hab 2:4
Rom 1:17

I don't know what you Calvinists mean by regeneration, but it certainly cannot mean life, because you do not receive life until you believe on Jesus and all your sins are taken away. Until then you are condemned in all your sins and spiritually dead.

 

[Luke2427]

I have shown you repeatedly that this is false. John 20:31 clearly says you must believe to have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It is the only verse you have to support this Arminian and illogical notion that dead things can believe. You have repeatedly quoted it and it does not say what you try to force it to say.

Life is necessary for faith and faith is necessary for continued life.

Fortunately that continued faith is promised.

God makes one alive so he can believe, then he believes which is why God made him alive. His life would not continue if he did not believe.

That is all that verse says and to make it a doctrinal statement of chronology of salvation is nothing more than prooftexting.

If I am wrong, prove it by doing two things:

1. Make sense of this idea that dead things can believe. You'll have to redefine the word "dead".

2. Provide another verse that ACTUALLY states that faith PRECEDES salvation.

Your verse does no more than this: A baby breathes- and breathing he has life.

Did breathing PRECEDE life? No. He had life before he took his first breath. But breathing indicates he still has life.

You want to force "that believing ye might have life" to teach that believing had to precede life. That phrase does not at all teach this- no more than "that breathing ye might have life" teaches that breath preceded life.

You must now find a verse that teaches that believing precedes life. You will NEVER find that because it is illogical and unbiblical.

Do things of necessity breathe before they have life? Of course not- the notion is utterly ridiculous. Is breathing necessary for the maintenance of life? Absolutely- irrevocably. Does the phrase "that breathing ye might have life" demand that breathing comes before life? Of course not. In fact everyone knows that the opposite is true.

But you are bound and determined to make this phrase say what you want it to say. "that believing (breathing) ye might have life" means that believing is proof of life and is necessary for the continued maintenance of life.

Please have the sincerity to admit that you are proof texting by demanding that this verse you keep using teach that faith precedes life. Please yield here so we can have fruitful exchanges on a further topic.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't know what you Calvinists mean by regeneration, but it certainly cannot mean life, because you do not receive life until you believe on Jesus and all your sins are taken away. Until then you are condemned in all your sins and spiritually dead.

You're right- you don't know. You really don't. You have no idea what Calvinists believe and yet you hate their doctrine. It is illogical.

In another thread you said that you have never in your life met a Calvinist who can understand Scripture to which I responded:

You must be kidding. No reputable Arminian scholar would make such a ridiculous remark. Luther, Beza, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards and simply the greatest Bible scholars of all time don't understand the Scripture?

Aren't you KJVO? You do know that the KJV is a predominantly Calvinist work don't you?

In fact the TR which they used is a text passed down from Erasmus (who was no Calvinist) to Theodore Beza (who was, of course THOROUGHLY Calvinist). It was primarily Beza's version of what would later become known as the TR which the KJV translators used. And the vast majority of the translators themselves were thoroughly Calvinist.

Your favorite Bible comes from a text which an edition of a teacher of false doctrine and your favorite version of the Bible was translated by a bunch of false doctrine peddlers according to you.

How exactly do you deal with that?

I wish you would not make silly remarks like this. I know the rolly eyes frustrated you, and perhaps they were a bit snotty, but your above comments do not help your case at all.

Let's get back on topic. An recant of that statement would be helpful in my opinion.

 

[Winman]

It is the only verse you have to support this Arminian and illogical notion that dead things can believe. You have repeatedly quoted it and it does not say what you try to force it to say.

Life is necessary for faith and faith is necessary for continued life.

I just posted half a dozen verses that all say you must first believe to have life. And Jesus himself showed the dead can believe.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Your position is absurd. You believe a person must have life in order to believe in order to have life. That is ridiculous. Laughable.

No, the scriptures clearly show a person must first believe to have life, therefore the unregenerate must be able to believe. And that is exactly what Jesus says in John 5:25. He doesn't say the living shall hear his voice and live, he says the dead.

The problem with Calvinism is that it does not understand the biblical term death. Death means to be separated from God in your sins, it does not mean to be like a lifeless corpse.

Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus is speaking of spiritually dead people who were quite alive physically. They are not like a lifeless corpse.

The rich man who died and went to hell was spiritually dead, yet he could see, speak, feel pain, hold a conversation with Abraham who is saved, and even repented and prayed that his brothers be saved. Calvinism does not understand spiritual death at all.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man who died and went to hell is spiritually dead, but very functional. This teaching that the spiritually dead are like a corpse is error.

 

[jbh28]

The problem with Calvinism is that it does not understand the biblical term death. Death means to be separated from God in your sins, it does not mean to be like a lifeless corpse.

Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus is speaking of spiritually dead people who were quite alive physically. They are not like a lifeless corpse.

Who believes an unsaved person is a lifeless corpse? Name one Calvinist that does and show evidence that they believe such.

 

[Luke2427]

I just posted half a dozen verses that all say you must first believe to have life. And Jesus himself showed the dead can believe.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Those verses do not say that faith PRECEDES life. Just that faith is necessary for the continued maintenance of life.

You CANNOT get it I suppose.

He that is born and breathes has life.

Does breath PRECEDE life there? No. It clearly does not.

You are determined to force these passages to say what you want them to say rather than fitting them in with the whole of Scripture. The whole of Scripture teaches that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE. The whole of Scripture teaches that the carnal mind is enmity with God and is NOT SUBJECT unto the law of God NEITHER CAN IT BE.

These verse you quote must not contradict those verses. They do not because they do not teach what you want to force them to teach- that faith precedes life.

Your position is absurd. You believe a person must have life in order to believe to have life. That is ridiculous.

You still cannot get it through your head that regeneration and salvation ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Until you learn this you will stay in the dark on this matter.

No, the scriptures clearly show a person must first believe to have life, therefore the unregenerate must be able to believe. And that is exactly what Jesus says in John 5:25. He doesn't say the living shall hear his voice and live, he says the dead.

I've already covered that Winman. You are not listening. They must hear before they can believe according to Roman 10. The hearing is proof of the reviving. The Word of Christ gives life. It awakens dead ears and gives life to dead spirits SO THAT ONE CAN BELIEVE.

That is the only explanation that is consistent with the teachings of the whole of Scripture.

The problem with Calvinism is that it does not understand the biblical term death. Death means to be separated from God in your sins, it does not mean to be like a lifeless corspe.

No, that is part of the definition but it is not the whole definition. The rest of it has to do with the natural man not being able to receive the things of the Spirit of God, etc, etc, etc...

Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus is speaking of spiritually dead people who were quite alive physically. They are not like a lifeless corpse.

The rich man who died and went to hell was spiritually dead, yet he could see, speak, feel pain, hold a conversation with Abraham who is saved, and even repented and prayed that his brothers be saved. Calvinism does not understand spiritual death at all.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man who died and went to hell is spiritually dead, but very functional. This teaching that the spiritually dead are like a corpse is error.

No it doesn't. These passages have nothing to do with what you are saying. Nothing at all.

 

[Winman]

Who believes an unsaved person is a lifeless corpse? Name one Calvinist that does and show evidence that they believe such.

Give me a break, Calvinists have compared the unregenerate to a dead person (lifeless corpse) probably hundreds of times on this forum.

 

[preacher4truth]

Give me a break, Calvinists have compared the unregenerate to a dead person (lifeless corpse) probably hundreds of times on this forum.

What's wrong with that, Winman, the description? God says we are DEAD spiritually. Should we paint the picture prettier than that? If you ask, should we paint it uglier, ask yourself, how ugly, in fact is sin to the Holy, Righteous, Just, Sovereign God?

 

[Winman]

You still cannot get it through your head that regeneration and salvation ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Until you learn this you will stay in the dark on this matter.

If regeneration and salvation are different, please show scripture to support this. And not something vague.

Regeneration as you believe it cannot mean spiritual life, because you cannot have spiritual life until all your sins are forgiven. Until your sins are forgiven you are dead in trespasses and sins. I have already shown several verses to support this (John 3:18 for one).

You really don't see how great an error you are teaching. You are teaching a man can have life without Christ. You are teaching a man is made alive before he receives Christ. I have posted statements from Calvinists who say a person can be regenerated for many years before trusting Christ. This is teaching you have life for years without Jesus. If you can't see the tremendous error here, you are in bad shape.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[jbh28]

Give me a break, Calvinists have compared the unregenerate to a dead person (lifeless corpse) probably hundreds of times on this forum.

No, they say that they are spiritually dead. No Calvinst thinks a unsaved person is a zombie. There is a comparison yes. Do you know what comparisons are? Maybe a little lesson in reading would help you out. They are to draw out a point, not to say that 100% of the comparison is to be compared. Unsaved people are spiritually dead as dead person is physically dead. It's comparing ONE area, not all.

 

[jbh28]

If regeneration and salvation are different, please show scripture to support this. And not something vague.

They are two different words, having two different definitions. Is regeneration the same as repentance? Is repentance the same as justification? Is justification the same as faith? Is Faith the same as grace? come on Winman, basic definition of words.

Regeneration as you believe it cannot mean spiritual life, because you cannot have spiritual life until all your sins are forgiven. Until your sins are forgiven you are dead in trespasses and sins. I have already shown several verses to support this (John 3:18 for one).

You really don't see how great an error you are teaching. You are teaching a man can have life without Christ. You are teaching a man is made alive before he receives Christ. I have posted statements from Calvinists who say a person can be regenerated for many years before trusting Christ. This is teaching you have life for years without Jesus. If you can't see the tremendous error here, you are in bad shape.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Where did Luke say that "a man can have life without Christ"? For me, regeneration happens at the same time as faith, repentance, justification, grace...

 

[Amy.G]

What's wrong with that, Winman, the description? God says we are DEAD spiritually. Should we paint the picture prettier than that? If you ask, should we paint it uglier, ask yourself, how ugly, in fact is sin to the Holy, Righteous, Just, Sovereign God?

Calvinists have to redefine the word dead in order for their theology to work. To be spiritually dead doesn't mean one cannot respond to the gospel. It means separation from God.

Was not Adam spiritually dead when God called out to him "where are you?". Yet Adam responded to Him.

 

[Winman]

Since you fellas will not be honest and confess that many Calvinists say the unregenerate is like a corpse, here is a statement from a Calvinist.

The unregenerate are spiritually dead

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we [Christians] all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph. 2:1-5). Because of man's fall into sin, men are dead. Unregenerate man can no more choose Christ or see spiritual truth than a rotting corpse can play tennis or debate philosophy. There is no middle ground between being alive and being dead. Unregenerate men are not just sick, handicapped, or impaired but dead. The biblical view of the unregenerate is totally at odds with most fundamentalist pastors and teachers who teach that unregenerate man has the ability to choose Christ. "You may use all human persuasion possible, but you cannot give spiritual life where death reigns. God alone, by a creative act, can bring life out of death. Spiritual arguments to an unregenerate man are only warm clothes to a corpse." [3]

There have been many statements like this from Calvinists on this very forum and you know it. I will not bother to search for them and post them, as you know very well this is the truth.