Faith, where does it come "in" when someone is saved?

[Winman]

Calvinists have to redefine the word dead in order for their theology to work. To be spiritually dead doesn't mean one cannot respond to the gospel. It means separation from God.

Was not Adam spiritually dead when God called out to him "where are you?". Yet Adam responded to Him.

Yes Amy, you are correct. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead after they sinned, but they both heard God call and came to him.

The Philipian jailer was not regenerate, he had not yet believed, and Jesus said those that believe not are condemned already. Yet he had a desire to be saved and once he heard the gospel believed and was saved.

You cannot be regenerate while you are in all your sins, and you cannot be forgiven your sins until you trust on Jesus.

Some Calvinists teach a person can be regenerated, be spiritually alive for years before they trust Jesus. This is impossible, if you do not have Jesus, you do not have life.

 

[jbh28]

Since you fellas will not be honest and confess that many Calvinists say the unregenerate is like a corpse, here is a statement from a Calvinist.



There have been many statements like this from Calvinists on this very forum and you know it. I will not bother to search for them and post them, as you know very well this is the truth.

Did you read my last post? your ignorance of communication is showing.

 

[jbh28]

Yes Amy, you are correct. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead after they sinned, but they both heard God call and came to him.

The Philipian jailer was not regenerate, he had not yet believed, and Jesus said those that believe not are condemned already. Yet he had a desire to be saved and once he heard the gospel believed and was saved.

You cannot be regenerate while you are in all your sins, and you cannot be forgiven your sins until you trust on Jesus.

Some Calvinists teach a person can be regenerated, be spiritually alive for years before they trust Jesus. This is impossible, if you do not have Jesus, you do not have life.

I would disagree with someone that says a person can be regenerate and not be a believer. Like Luke's analogy, a person is breathing is alive, a person not breathing is dead. A regenerate person is alive in Christ, and unregenerate person is dead outside of Christ.

 

[Winman]

Here is a statement from V. A. Voorhiss, assistant to R.C. Sproul confirming that some Calvinists teach a person can be regenerated for years before placing faith in Christ.

When the RSB speaks in the notes of John 3 of "infants being born again," it is speaking of the work of quickening God does in them which inclines their will to Him. In Protestantism, regeneration always precedes faith and if God quickens them, the person will surely come . . .Often, regeneration and our subsequent faith happen apparently simultaneously but logically, regeneration must precede faith. An infant’s faith may not come until years after God has worked by His Holy Spirit to regenerate him or her. Two Biblical examples of infants who were born again are seen in Psalm 22:9-10 and Luke 1:15.

So, there you have it, some Calvinists teach you can have spiritual life for years without Christ. This is serious error.

The scriptures say if you do not have Jesus, you do not have life.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[Winman]

I would disagree with someone that says a person can be regenerate and not be a believer. Like Luke's analogy, a person is breathing is alive, a person not breathing is dead. A regenerate person is alive in Christ, and unregenerate person is dead outside of Christ.

Well, I just showed a quote from a Calvinist that says you can be regenerate for years before you believe. I have shown quotes from other Calvinists saying the same several times on this forum in the past.

So, were Adam and Eve regenerate when they answered God in the garden and came to him? Was the Philipian jailer regenerate when he asked how to be saved? He must have been sincere, he got saved. But he had not believed yet. How can you explain that?

Again, you are comparing spiritual death to physical death. That is exactly where Calvinists err. A physically dead person cannot see, hear, speak, or feel pain, but the rich man who died and went to hell could do all of these things.

Until you Calvinists learn to discern between the physical and spiritual, it is you who will never understand.

 

[jbh28]

Well, I just showed a quote from a Calvinist that says you can be regenerate for years before you believe. I have shown quotes from other Calvinists saying the same several times on this forum in the past.

Yes, I have heard some(few) Calvinist say this. But not all.

So, were Adam and Eve regenerate when they answered God in the garden and came to him? Was the Philipian jailer regenerate when he asked how to be saved? He must have been sincere, he got saved. But he had not believed yet. How can you explain that?

As I have said, regeneration, believe, faith, repentance, justification, adoption all happen at the same time. If the jailer had never believed, he would have never been saved. God's drawing doesn't equal regeneration. Adam and eve example doesn't apply. We are talking about responding in the heart, not to an audible voice.

 

[preacher4truth]

Calvinists have to redefine the word dead in order for their theology to work. To be spiritually dead doesn't mean one cannot respond to the gospel. It means separation from God.

Was not Adam spiritually dead when God called out to him "where are you?". Yet Adam responded to Him.

You're assuming that "where are you?" is an invitation to the Gospel. Not so.


I've never heard a Calvinist redefine "spiritually dead" it to fit their theology, but rather define it very well. This is condemning and judging quite a few persons in your accusation. Their theology works very well.

Adam was not responding nor was he being called to obey the Gospel. He was asked where he was, in order to recognize his lost state, so that he would see his need to be saved. This is the same way people are saved today. So basically you are implying Calvinists say those dead in sin cannot even hear God convicting them of sin?


BTW, God had to show them He had to do ALL of the saving, and rejected ALL of their effort to save themselves. Why? They were incapable of doing so.



This was not a call to, and/or a response of receiving the Gospel of God unto salvation. That's straining the text.

 

[Winman]

Yes, I have heard some(few) Calvinist say this. But not all.


As I have said, regeneration, believe, faith, repentance, justification, adoption all happen at the same time. If the jailer had never believed, he would have never been saved. God's drawing doesn't equal regeneration. Adam and eve example doesn't apply. We are talking about responding in the heart, not to an audible voice.

Boy, you don't know your scripture very well. Adam and Eve got saved when they believed God's promise to send a Saviour (Gen 3:15 and Gen 4:1). We know this because God killed an innocent animal (representing Christ) and clothed them (representing righteousness).

I will agree that faith and regeneration occur at once, but necessarily faith precedes regeneration. You just cannot get it, until you believe you are condemned. You are dead in your trespasses and sins. Only after believeing do you receive life, this is exactly what John 20:31 says.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I have shown you many verses tonight that say you must believe to have life, but you refuse to accept the truth.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36 is plain, he that believes has life, he that believes not shall not see life. So faith must precede regeneration.

 

[jbh28]

Boy, you don't know your scripture very well. Adam and Eve got saved when they believed God's promise to send a Saviour (Gen 3:15 and Gen 4:1). We know this because God killed an innocent animal (representing Christ) and clothed them (representing righteousness).

Ok then, they were regenerate then.... I was going by your saying they could talk to God.

I will agree that faith and regeneration occur at once, but necessarily faith precedes regeneration. You just cannot get it, until you believe you are condemned. You are dead in your trespasses and sins. Only after believeing do you receive life, this is exactly what John 20:31 says.

You just contradicted yourself. Faith and regeneration occur at once doesn't eqal faith preceding regeneration. Now, if you are saying logically, then I disagree.

As it has been pointed out, dead people don't believe. Salvation is a work of God, not you being smart enough to believe.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I have shown you many verses tonight that say you must believe to have life, but you refuse to accept the truth.

You have been shown your error here. Nowhere in this verse does it say that faith precedes regeneration. You refuse to accept that because you want to stay in your man centered theology.

 

[Winman]

Ok then, they were regenerate then.... I was going by your saying they could talk to God.

No, they were not. They came to God and talked with him before God gave the promise. Calvinists say that the unregenerate will never respond positively to God.

They could not have been regenerate because the promise was not yet given. You have to have a promise to believe it. When they first came out and talked to God they were still dead in sin. Only after hearing God's promise and believeing it were they justified.

Man, you are stubborn, you will fight the truth to the end won't you?

You just contradicted yourself. Faith and regeneration occur at once doesn't eqal faith preceding regeneration. Now, if you are saying logically, then I disagree.

As it has been pointed out, dead people don't believe. Salvation is a work of God, not you being smart enough to believe.

Well, the moment you believe you are justified, forgiven all your sins. This is life.

Jesus said the dead could hear his voice and they that hear shall live. I have already showed you this verse. Who do you believe, Calvinism or Jesus?

You have been shown your error here. Nowhere in this verse does it say that faith precedes regeneration. You refuse to accept that because you want to stay in your man centered theology.

John 20:31 indeed shows faith precedes regeneration, but you refuse to accept it. There are other verses besides this.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You don't receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER you believe. Jesus also showed this.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is why Paul asked this question:

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

You just keep holding to that man-made doctrine and ignore the many verses of scripture that say you must first believe to have life.

 

[Luke2427]

If regeneration and salvation are different, please show scripture to support this. And not something vague.

Regeneration as you believe it cannot mean spiritual life, because you cannot have spiritual life until all your sins are forgiven. Until your sins are forgiven you are dead in trespasses and sins. I have already shown several verses to support this (John 3:18 for one).

You really don't see how great an error you are teaching. You are teaching a man can have life without Christ. You are teaching a man is made alive before he receives Christ. I have posted statements from Calvinists who say a person can be regenerated for many years before trusting Christ. This is teaching you have life for years without Jesus. If you can't see the tremendous error here, you are in bad shape.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Winman,

First of all, you are not responding to my arguments- at all.

Secondly, I have already shown clearly that different words mean different things. Everybody knows this.

I cannot take the Bible and show you that black and white are not the same thing. We simply understand that they are two different words that mean two different things.

Here's what I would appreciate from you. Address my arguments line by line like we do yours.

I think it is pretty clear that you cannot.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

First of all, you are not responding to my arguments- at all.

Secondly, I have already shown clearly that different words mean different things. Everybody knows this.

I cannot take the Bible and show you that black and white are not the same thing. We simply understand that they are two different words that mean two different things.

Here's what I would appreciate from you. Address my arguments line by line like we do yours.

I think it is pretty clear that you cannot.

You should run for politics, you did everything but show scripture that shows regeneration is different than salvation.

The word regeneration is only shown twice in scriptures, and in both instances it does not even mention faith, so there is no way to discern from these verses which comes first.

But if you define regeneration as life, which you seem to do, I have shown you numerous verses already that show faith precedes life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If your doctrine were true, this verse should say:

He that hath everlasting life believeth on the Son, and he that shall not see life believeth not the Son; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God said exactly what he wanted to say. He that believes has life, he that believes not shall not see life.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

As I have shown you many times now, unless you believe you are still in your sins and shall die in them. Therefore you cannot have spiritual life, be regenerated until after you believe.

And again, you are teaching that a person can have life without Christ. This is tremendous error.

I am almost finished for the night, but you should read all of these verses carefully. You will see they clearly refute the doctrines of Calvinism.

Unlike you, I have presented MANY scriptures that clearly support my view.

 

[Luke2427]

You should run for politics, you did everything but show scripture that shows regeneration is different than salvation.

The word regeneration is only shown twice in scriptures, and in both instances it does not even mention faith, so there is no way to discern from these verses which comes first.

But if you define regeneration as life, which you seem to do, I have shown you numerous verses already that show faith precedes life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If your doctrine were true, this verse should say:

He that hath everlasting life believeth on the Son, and he that shall not see life believeth not the Son; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God said exactly what he wanted to say. He that believes has life, he that believes not shall not see life.

John 8:I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

As I have shown you many times now, unless you believe you are still in your sins and shall die in them. Therefore you cannot have spiritual life, be regenerated until after you believe.

And again, you are teaching that a person can have life without Christ. This is tremendous error.

I am almost finished for the night, but you should read all of these verses carefully. You will see they clearly refute the doctrines of Calvinism.

Unlike you, I have presented MANY scriptures that clearly support my view.

I have presented several Scriptures. You apparently don't recognize Scripture when you see it. Perhaps I need to color them blue and red so you will recognize them.

You are not addressing my arguments and are thus wasting my time and rushing this thread to an early close fruitlessly. I wish you would not post on my threads if you are not going to address my arguments. You don't because you can't because you don't know what Calvinism is and you don't know what to do when someone won't let you twist the Scripture.

 

[Winman]

I know what Calvinism is, it is gross error.

 

[webdog]

What's wrong with that, Winman, the description? God says we are DEAD spiritually. Should we paint the picture prettier than that? If you ask, should we paint it uglier, ask yourself, how ugly, in fact is sin to the Holy, Righteous, Just, Sovereign God?

What purpose is there in punishing a corpse?

 

[webdog]

They are two different words, having two different definitions. Is regeneration the same as repentance? Is repentance the same as justification? Is justification the same as faith? Is Faith the same as grace? come on Winman, basic definition of words.

Who cares if they have different definitions, they are still part of the same event. Justification, salvation, regeneration are all synonymous and are interchangeable. Whether I say I ate a lot, I'm full or I'm no longer hungry...they all describe the same event. Salvation is new life and is also being found not guilty in God's eye.

 

[Luke2427]

I know what Calvinism is, it is gross error.

What you believe is gross error, Winman. Even Jacobus Arminius would not tolerate you saying that about Calvinism. He would expel you from his school as a heretic. You are not educated enough concerning Church History and Theology to be so bold. You need to plug into a Seminary somewhere and receive some theological training.

Not everyone needs to do this to debate on here. But you do, and I'll tell you why.

There are several folks on here who are not Calvinists and have not had any theological training who have sense enough to know that Calvinism, though it may not be what they adhere to, is not "gross error". They have enough learning to know that many of the greats in history like Spurgeon were staunch Calvinists and they have sense enough to deduce from that that Calvinists DO indeed know their Bibles. You do not, apparently, have sense enough to know these things.

So, you, not everyone else on baptistboard, but you need to go to school and learn some important things and then try your hand in a debate concerning theology.

That is not ad hominem. It is a clear observable fact.

 

[Luke2427]

Who cares if they have different definitions, they are still part of the same event. Justification, salvation, regeneration are all synonymous and are interchangeable. Whether I say I ate a lot, I'm full or I'm no longer hungry...they all describe the same event. Salvation is new life and is also being found not guilty in God's eye.

You're better than that Webdog. They are not synonyms- especially not just because you say so, for heaven's sake.

 

[webdog]

You're better than that Webdog. They are not synonyms- especially not just because you say so, for heaven's sake.

I don't say so, Scripture defines these terms. You can not pass from spiritual death to spiritual life apart from Christ, you cannot be found not guilty apart from Christ, and you cannot be saved from Hell apart from Christ. I know you don't like the fact they are synonymous because it puts a huge dent into needing regeneration to precede faith, but it is what it is. Can a regenerated person perish? Can a justified person perish? Can a saved person perish? Case closed.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't say so, Scripture defines these terms. You can not pass from spiritual death to spiritual life apart from Christ, you cannot be found not guilty apart from Christ, and you cannot be saved from Hell apart from Christ. I know you don't like the fact they are synonymous because it puts a huge dent into needing regeneration to precede faith, but it is what it is. Can a regenerated person perish? Can a justified person perish? Can a saved person perish? Case closed.

No it is not closed- and certainly, once again, not just because you say so. Terms have meanings. I am disappointed in you, Webdog. Terms have meanings- no one should argue with that.

Look these terms up in Strong's for goodness' sake and you will see they each mean their own thing.

You are the one who needs to abuse terms and make them synonyms to prop up your theology. Let the terms stand as they are and you will become a Calvinist.

Terms have meanings, Webdog. They have meanings. You don't get to redefine them all as synonyms. Everybody knows that.