Calvinism more evangelistic?

[Amy.G]

I appreciate your beneficence and kindness to our Arminian brothers and sisters, but the fact of the matter is that Calvinism IS the Gospel in its purest and fuller form.

Then you should share it with all you witness to. Tell them they may not be chosen.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't believe that. I do not believe that God "forsees" faith. God made a decision and a plan (before the foundation of the world) that all those who are in Christ would be saved. In order to be in Christ, you must have faith in Him. It's our decision to believe and live or believe not and be condemned. He did not arbitrarily choose this person over that person, which is what Calvinism teaches.

And yes, I would tell people that because it's the truth.

That's foreseen faith. You say that God saves people who are in Christ who got in Christ because they chose to believe. That's foreseen faith, and like it or not- those few make up God's elect in your system as much as in ours. You still have God electing to save a few and leaving the rest to perish as much as we have.

And BTW NO Calvinist believes God does ANYTHING arbitrarily. God has his own purposes and he does not have to reveal them unto us. But they are certainly NOT arbitrary.

 

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
But many say that Calvinism IS the gospel. Therefore you are being disobedient if you don't tell them the whole gospel, that only a few have been chosen and it may not be the person you're talking to. It's the truth isn't it?

When some say calvinism is the gospel they mean the system of teaching brings the whole man [dead in sin] to the Whole Christ[alive forever more]
It is exciting to realize that everyday God might use you to plant the seed of the word into someone who is outside the kingdom,yet trust that God will accomplish his purpose with His word;

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[annsni]

I don't believe that. I do not believe that God "forsees" faith. God made a decision and a plan (before the foundation of the world) that all those who are in Christ would be saved. In order to be in Christ, you must have faith in Him. It's our decision to believe and live or believe not and be condemned. He did not arbitrarily choose this person over that person, which is what Calvinism teaches.

And yes, I would tell people that because it's the truth.

So you're saying that God decided that whoever stepped on the escalator would be saved. It is our choice to step on the escalator if we wish. It is wholly our decision to be saved or not? God has no hand in it whatsoever?

 

[Luke2427]

Then you should share it with all you witness to. Tell them they may not be chosen.

I do with a lot but your saying that I should with "all" is very flawed logic.

I believe that each person of the Godhead Trinity is involved in the economy of redemption and therefore the Trinity is a vital part of the Gospel- but I do not teach a discourse on the Trinity before I lead someone to Christ.

Do you? Because you believe that God the Father sent God the Son to save the world and that God the Spirit works in the hearts of men to save them- you believe that that is the Gospel do you not??

If you do, then according to your logic you ought to do a six week course on the Trinity before you pray with someone.

The Trinity is part of the Gospel as is Calvinism. But one does not have to understand all of either to the fullest to be saved. In fact very little is necessary to be understood to be saved.

 

[Amy.G]

So you're saying that God decided that whoever stepped on the escalator would be saved. It is our choice to step on the escalator if we wish. It is wholly our decision to be saved or not? God has no hand in it whatsoever?

I never said that. And you don't really think that either. You know that I believe we are saved by grace, through faith and nothing else. But God gives us a choice to receive or reject. That is all over the Bible.

 

[Amy.G]

I do with a lot but your saying that I should with "all" is very flawed logic.

Really? You actually tell people they may not be one of the chosen?

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't believe that. I do not believe that God "forsees" faith. God made a decision and a plan (before the foundation of the world) that all those who are in Christ would be saved. In order to be in Christ, you must have faith in Him. It's our decision to believe and live or believe not and be condemned. He did not arbitrarily choose this person over that person, which is what Calvinism teaches.

And yes, I would tell people that because it's the truth.

Amy,
It is good that you have a passion to see souls saved,I think we all agree on this:1_grouphug:

you said;

In order to be in Christ, you must have faith in Him.

yes....without faith it is impossible to please Him Heb11

then you said;

It's our decision to believe and live or believe not and be condemned.

Jesus said this in Jn 3;

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Can you see it? It is not "their decision "....in unbelief they are standing as dead men walking...condemned...But God;

[But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
/QUOTE]
God enables someone to repent and believe....which all who have life do.
These verses in eph show that God does it....

 

[annsni]

I never said that. And you don't really think that either. You know that I believe we are saved by grace, through faith and nothing else. But God gives us a choice to receive or reject. That is all over the Bible.

Oh, but God saves those who step on the escalator - but they need to step on the escalator and there is nothing God can do to make sure they get there. At least that's the belief that I've heard from those who do not believe in the doctrine of grace - and the belief that I was taught for many years when I was a younger believer.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh, but God saves those who step on the escalator - but they need to step on the escalator and there is nothing God can do to make sure they get there.

No. God draws through creation, His word, His witnesses, the gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit. Man has no excuse. Romans 1. If man had no choice, he would have an excuse.

 

[Luke2427]

Oh, but God saves those who step on the escalator - but they need to step on the escalator and there is nothing God can do to make sure they get there. At least that's the belief that I've heard from those who do not believe in the doctrine of grace - and the belief that I was taught for many years when I was a younger believer.

That's basically it, I think, Ann.

Most of them nowadays will say that God has to draw the sinner but that the sinner still does the choosing. It is not up to God whether or not the sinner gets on. It is up to the sinner. Of course the problem with that is that the sinner will NEVER choose to get on. NEVER. The sinner has to be regenerated before he will ever choose to get on. He is unwilling until God changes his heart and makes him willing.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

Can you see it? It is not "their decision "....in unbelief they are standing as dead men walking...condemned...

No I don't see it. They either believe or don't believe. It is your choice to believe. God does not make you believe.

You cannot have life before you believe because the Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers.

 

[Luke2427]

Really? You actually tell people they may not be one of the chosen?

Yes. I baptized a former Catholic just week before last who was converted under that kind of preaching. I baptized nine this year under that kind of preaching.

You believe God has his chosen few too. You believe that the person to whom you are speaking may very well and probably is not part of God's elect. You believe that too Amy. Do you tell them??

 

[Amy.G]

Yes. I baptized a former Catholic just week before last who was converted under that kind of preaching. I baptized nine this year under that kind of preaching.

You believe God has his chosen few too. You believe that the person to whom you are speaking may very well and probably is not part of God's elect. You believe that too Amy. Do you tell them??

If you had told me (before I was saved) that I may not have been one of the chosen for salvation, I would have walked away and said what's the use. God will either save me or He won't.

You and I don't agree on how or why God elects.

 

[Luke2427]

Amy,

Can you see it? It is not "their decision "....in unbelief they are standing as dead men walking...condemned...

No I don't see it. They either believe or don't believe. It is your choice to believe. God does not make you believe.

You cannot have life before you believe because the Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers.

Who says??

You believe the Holy Spirit moves in a sinner, yourself Amy. You keep accusing us of believing things that you yourself believe.

You don't believe that a sinner just up and comes to Christ on his own. You believe the Holy Spirit moves IN his heart. So do we.

We call what the Holy Spirit is doing in there- regeneration. You call it conviction- which we believe too but it is clear that a sinner who is at enmity with God will not be convinced until he is regenerated since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither CAN HE.

But either way we both have the Holy Spirit moving in the hearts of sinners.

So what is your point?

 

[Iconoclast]

Amy,

Can you see it? It is not "their decision "....in unbelief they are standing as dead men walking...condemned...

No I don't see it. They either believe or don't believe. It is your choice to believe. God does not make you believe.

You cannot have life before you believe because the Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers.

Amy, thanks for your response. Life and belief happen at the same time you are quickened. Like Lazarus...come forth.....Jesus gave him life and ability.

14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

See it this time.....the Holy Spirit tells us..whose heart the Lord opened

She repented and believed, as the Spirit worked as in jn 3

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

come on Amy...........connect the dots....lol

 

[Luke2427]

If you had told me (before I was saved) that I may not have been one of the chosen for salvation, I would have walked away and said what's the use. God will either save me or He won't.

You and I don't agree on how or why God elects.

That would be silly. Because I would say the same thing, hopefully, that you would say. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and whosoever cometh to Christ he will in NO wise cast out.

The elect will believe. If you believe- TA DAAAA!! Your the elect. God's elect will follow him. If you do not believe and if you never believe then guess what... you are not God's elect.

How in the world could you possibly have any problem whatsoever with that kind of Gospel presentation??

 

[annsni]

Amy,

Can you see it? It is not "their decision "....in unbelief they are standing as dead men walking...condemned...

No I don't see it. They either believe or don't believe. It is your choice to believe. God does not make you believe.

You cannot have life before you believe because the Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers.

What if it's an instantaneous event? What if God calls us to a point of life where we CAN respond? A point where He changes our natures to one where we now have the desire to respond whereas before we never had the desire?

I was told this comparison that I think is so good. Look at a lion. Put out a bowl of salad and a bowl of raw zebra meat. What will the lion choose to eat? The zebra. Did he really have a choice? Absolutely because there were two things there. Would the lion EVER choose the salad over the zebra? Never because a lion's very nature drives him to eat the zebra meat. In order for him to no longer desire the zebra meat and instead desire the salad, his very nature would have to change.

God changes our very natures in order to respond. When our nature is changed, that desire is now in us to respond and the desire is so strong we WILL respond and yet it is still our own decision to make. It is not forced on us but we cannot BUT choose God at that point in our lives. THAT is how the doctrine of grace is for one called by God.

 

[Luke2427]

Amy,

Can you see it? It is not "their decision "....in unbelief they are standing as dead men walking...condemned...




What if it's an instantaneous event? What if God calls us to a point of life where we CAN respond? A point where He changes our natures to one where we now have the desire to respond whereas before we never had the desire?

I was told this comparison that I think is so good. Look at a lion. Put out a bowl of salad and a bowl of raw zebra meat. What will the lion choose to eat? The zebra. Did he really have a choice? Absolutely because there were two things there. Would the lion EVER choose the salad over the zebra? Never because a lion's very nature drives him to eat the zebra meat. In order for him to no longer desire the zebra meat and instead desire the salad, his very nature would have to change.

God changes our very natures in order to respond. When our nature is changed, that desire is now in us to respond and the desire is so strong we WILL respond and yet it is still our own decision to make. It is not forced on us but we cannot BUT choose God at that point in our lives. THAT is how the doctrine of grace is for one called by God.

That is irrefutably it, Ann. But many of them will say that the anecdote breaks down because the sinner might want the salad as much as the zebra. They don't believe that man is thoroughly sinful; that his desires are only evil continually.

 

[annsni]

That is irrefutably it, Ann. But many of them will say that the anecdote breaks down because the sinner might want the salad as much as the zebra. They don't believe that man is thoroughly sinful; that his desires are only evil continually.

Right - there is no way in this world a lion would choose a salad over a zebra. Ever. Sinful man will never choose God. Ever. He needs a "heart transplant" as my pastor says.