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Calvinism more evangelistic?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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1612091 said:Right - there is no way in this world a lion would choose a salad over a zebra. Ever.Sinful man will never choose God. Ever. He needs a "heart transplant" as my pastor says.
Exactly. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE... That is the clear condition of the sinner. He CANNOT receive the things of the Holy Spirit. He can't.
He has to become spiritual to receive spiritual things. That is good old fashioned Pauline regeneration.
Regeneration MUST precede faith.
I'm leaving the debate now. No Luke, not because you have defeated me, but because I'm worn out from beating this dead horse and I need some zzzzzzzzz's.
Have fun mischaracterizing all non cals. You seem to enjoy it so much.
ditto.....
But YOU are not what I am trying to defeat. It is your ideals. And that, well, that is being defeated- I think that is pretty clear.:thumbs:
Goodnight Amy. Thanks for your input. I honestly found it very useful as usual. God bless!:sleeping_2:
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We got off the beaten trail a bit.
Could a real case not be made that historically Calvinists tend to be MORE evangelistic than Arminians?
The case is often made that they are less. It is clear that they are at least AS evangelistic. But it seems that Calvinists may actually be a great deal MORE evangelistic.
Not only do we see this historically, but we see it motivationally as well.
The Calvinist's motive is purer, is it not? His motive is the glory of Christ whereas it seems that the Arminians generally speak about the need of men more. They talk a lot more about loving souls whereas it seems Calvinists say, "Go, out of love for the Savior!"
Isn't loving the Savior a far purer motive than loving sinners? concern for his glory is a greater motive than concern for their souls, is it not?
Could a real case not be made that historically Calvinists tend to be MORE evangelistic than Arminians?
The case is often made that they are less. It is clear that they are at least AS evangelistic. But it seems that Calvinists may actually be a great deal MORE evangelistic.
Not only do we see this historically, but we see it motivationally as well.
The Calvinist's motive is purer, is it not? His motive is the glory of Christ whereas it seems that the Arminians generally speak about the need of men more. They talk a lot more about loving souls whereas it seems Calvinists say, "Go, out of love for the Savior!"
Isn't loving the Savior a far purer motive than loving sinners? concern for his glory is a greater motive than concern for their souls, is it not?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Hypricrites
I believe the soil out there is very rocky in need of work. No one can be regenerated without first hearing the word of faith. Then it is a matter of trust in Christ. I really think the ground is pretty rocky out there and in need of a lot of work. We are the light of Christ the living water flows from us who believes. We who are filled with the Holy Spirit have the regenerating power through the words of Christ that we proclaim. The more the world sees our good deeds, the more they will praise our Father in heaven.
It is easier to blame God why people are not coming to Christ instead of ourselves. Most people I have talked, talked bad about the witness of those who have come to Jesus who doesn't show it in their life.
When the elect do come, God will use them to bring about amount saved like the sands of the seashore. I pray for that day.
Revelation 7:
144,000 Sealed
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”
I believe the soil out there is very rocky in need of work. No one can be regenerated without first hearing the word of faith. Then it is a matter of trust in Christ. I really think the ground is pretty rocky out there and in need of a lot of work. We are the light of Christ the living water flows from us who believes. We who are filled with the Holy Spirit have the regenerating power through the words of Christ that we proclaim. The more the world sees our good deeds, the more they will praise our Father in heaven.
It is easier to blame God why people are not coming to Christ instead of ourselves. Most people I have talked, talked bad about the witness of those who have come to Jesus who doesn't show it in their life.
When the elect do come, God will use them to bring about amount saved like the sands of the seashore. I pray for that day.
Revelation 7:
144,000 Sealed
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”
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convicted1
Guest
Here are the "beliefs" of Arminiaism(sp?):
Classical Arminianism (sometimes titled Reformed Arminianism or Reformation Arminianism) is the theological system that was presented by Jacobus Arminius and maintained by the Remonstrants; its influence serves as the foundation for all Arminian systems. A list of beliefs is given below:
Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.""I agree with this."
Atonement is intended for al: Jesus's death was for all people, Jesus draws all people to himself, and all people have opportunity for salvation through faith."This I agree with also."
Jesus's death satisfies God's justice: The penalty for the sins of the elect is paid in full through Jesus's work on the cross. Thus Christ's atonement is intended for all, but requires faith to be effected. Arminius states that "Justification, when used for the act of a Judge, is either purely the imputation of righteousness through mercy… or that man is justified before God… according to the rigor of justice without any forgiveness."Agreed!
Grace is resistible: God takes initiative in the salvation process and His grace comes to all people. This grace (often called prevenient or pre-regenerating grace) acts on all people to convince them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith.
The offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.I agree with this, also
Man has free will to respond or resist: Free will is limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignty allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist.
Election is conditional: Arminius defined election as "the decree of God by which, of Himself, from eternity, He decreed to justify in Christ, believers, and to accept them unto eternal life." God alone determines who will be saved and his determination is that all who believe Jesus through faith will be justified. According to Arminius, "God regards no one in Christ unless they are engrafted in him by faith. "God predestines the elect to a glorious future: Predestination is not the predetermination of who will believe, but rather the predetermination of the believer's future inheritance. The elect are therefore predestined to sonship through adoption, glorification, and eternal life.Agree
Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned.Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renouncement of belief.UGH!! I hate this!!
The reason why I brought these up is this. I believe in all but one of the "A's" belief system. Now, you go and tell someone that God can save you, and then tell them, "well, your security is limited, meaning at a moment's notice, you could fall from grace, and be re-lost, and see how far your ministry goes. I do not find Calvinists/DoG Brethern's preaching any different than that of the Arminians preaching. They both PREACH Christ as the Saviour for the lost, and that and that alone, will save!!
i am I am's!!
Willis
Classical Arminianism (sometimes titled Reformed Arminianism or Reformation Arminianism) is the theological system that was presented by Jacobus Arminius and maintained by the Remonstrants; its influence serves as the foundation for all Arminian systems. A list of beliefs is given below:
Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.""I agree with this."
Atonement is intended for al: Jesus's death was for all people, Jesus draws all people to himself, and all people have opportunity for salvation through faith."This I agree with also."
Jesus's death satisfies God's justice: The penalty for the sins of the elect is paid in full through Jesus's work on the cross. Thus Christ's atonement is intended for all, but requires faith to be effected. Arminius states that "Justification, when used for the act of a Judge, is either purely the imputation of righteousness through mercy… or that man is justified before God… according to the rigor of justice without any forgiveness."Agreed!
Grace is resistible: God takes initiative in the salvation process and His grace comes to all people. This grace (often called prevenient or pre-regenerating grace) acts on all people to convince them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith.
The offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.I agree with this, also
Man has free will to respond or resist: Free will is limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignty allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist.
Election is conditional: Arminius defined election as "the decree of God by which, of Himself, from eternity, He decreed to justify in Christ, believers, and to accept them unto eternal life." God alone determines who will be saved and his determination is that all who believe Jesus through faith will be justified. According to Arminius, "God regards no one in Christ unless they are engrafted in him by faith. "God predestines the elect to a glorious future: Predestination is not the predetermination of who will believe, but rather the predetermination of the believer's future inheritance. The elect are therefore predestined to sonship through adoption, glorification, and eternal life.Agree
Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned.Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renouncement of belief.UGH!! I hate this!!
The reason why I brought these up is this. I believe in all but one of the "A's" belief system. Now, you go and tell someone that God can save you, and then tell them, "well, your security is limited, meaning at a moment's notice, you could fall from grace, and be re-lost, and see how far your ministry goes. I do not find Calvinists/DoG Brethern's preaching any different than that of the Arminians preaching. They both PREACH Christ as the Saviour for the lost, and that and that alone, will save!!
i am I am's!!
Willis
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Of course, I don't know every Calvinist who has ever lived, but I have yet to come across one who belives that God has chosen only a few to be saved.
Acrostics can be helpful, but they can also bring problems with them. I think that is the case with the "TULIP" acrostic, with the L standing for "limited atonement", and perhaps giving the impression of a small number. That is why I much prefer the term "particular redemption", but then "TUPIP" isn't a word
The Calvinists I know believe the teaching of Revelation 7.9 about the "great multitude which no one could number, of all tribes, people and tongues".
Tom Butler
New Member
Regarding election, do Calvinists believe God chooses whom he will save? Yes
Do non-Calvinists believe God chooses whom he will save?
Yes.
Do non-Calvinists believe that God knows who will exercise saving faith? Yes,
Do Calvinists believe that God knows who will exercise saving faith? Yes
Do Calvinists know who those people are? No.
Do non-Cals know who those people are? No
If Calvinists should tell people they may not be elect, shouldn't non-Calvinists do the same thing? Yes.
Another strawman argument bites the dust.
Do non-Calvinists believe God chooses whom he will save?
Yes.
Do non-Calvinists believe that God knows who will exercise saving faith? Yes,
Do Calvinists believe that God knows who will exercise saving faith? Yes
Do Calvinists know who those people are? No.
Do non-Cals know who those people are? No
If Calvinists should tell people they may not be elect, shouldn't non-Calvinists do the same thing? Yes.
Another strawman argument bites the dust.
I believe there is a happy medium between what we call "calvanism" and "armenianism".
There ARE hypercalvanists who believe that there are those that God elected and those that God damned and they can never get saved, so why witness to them?
The Bible talks about the 'elect' and the 'whosoever wills'. It's one of those things I think we as humans cannot fully grasp. There is BOTH.
Because He knew us since the foundation of the earth, He knows who is going to be saved, and who isn't. I think that is what it means by elect.
But then, there the 'whosoever will'. The Bible repeats over and over the 'whosoever'. So also, anyone that calls on His name will be saved.
I can't word it right. It's in my head perfectly but its so hard to get it down on paper - er - computer.
There ARE hypercalvanists who believe that there are those that God elected and those that God damned and they can never get saved, so why witness to them?
The Bible talks about the 'elect' and the 'whosoever wills'. It's one of those things I think we as humans cannot fully grasp. There is BOTH.
Because He knew us since the foundation of the earth, He knows who is going to be saved, and who isn't. I think that is what it means by elect.
But then, there the 'whosoever will'. The Bible repeats over and over the 'whosoever'. So also, anyone that calls on His name will be saved.
I can't word it right. It's in my head perfectly but its so hard to get it down on paper - er - computer.
You did fine- but what you outlined for us is not a happy medium between Calvinism and Arminianism- it is Calvinism.
Calvinists absolutely believe that "whosoever will may come".
Calvinists absolutely believe that God will not turn away a single soul who comes to him.
The elect are the ones who come to him and- the ones who come to Him are the elect.
Every Christian believes in the elect- its in the Bible.
And every Christian I know believes that whosoever will may come- its in the Bible- which is why Calvinists believe it.
I guess what I want to say is, I don't put a man's name to what I believe.
I don't believe man's words, I believe God's words. We are to be like the bereans and study things to see if they are true. Sure, we can sit under men's teachings, read men's teachings, but I do not follow men.
I believe the Bible, and I don't like to say "I'm a Calvanist" because I'm a Christian. Not a Calvin follower, not an anyone follower, except for Christ.
Just like I don't like denominational stuff, I don't say "I'm a Baptist" or "I'm a Free Presbyterian" or "I'm Pentecostal", etc.
I GO to a Baptist church, but I am not Baptist. I am nothing other than a Born Again Christian.
So no, I am not Calvanist. Do I make sense?
I don't believe man's words, I believe God's words. We are to be like the bereans and study things to see if they are true. Sure, we can sit under men's teachings, read men's teachings, but I do not follow men.
I believe the Bible, and I don't like to say "I'm a Calvanist" because I'm a Christian. Not a Calvin follower, not an anyone follower, except for Christ.
Just like I don't like denominational stuff, I don't say "I'm a Baptist" or "I'm a Free Presbyterian" or "I'm Pentecostal", etc.
I GO to a Baptist church, but I am not Baptist. I am nothing other than a Born Again Christian.
So no, I am not Calvanist. Do I make sense?
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Sure. I understand that.
But you probably call yourself many things besides just a Christian.
You probably call yourself a Baptist.
You probably call yourself an American.
We could go on ad nauseum.
The point is that these are "man-made" terms that we rightfully embrace.
We call ourselves baptists because we believe in believer's baptism. That sets us apart from those who are Christians who do not believe in believer's baptism.
We call ourselves Calvinists because we believe in the exhaustive Sovereignty of God. That sets us apart from those who believe in limited Sovereignty- the Arminians.
Alot of people resist the labels that are used in christianity.One one hand everyone understands the desire to say......
I just follow Jesus......I just follow the bible...etc.
It sounds very spiritual but the fact is a JW or a mormon can make the same claim as a Christ denying cultist!
Who and what you believe matters and the labels can say alot very quickly.
Even if you do not use the labels,others do.
In scripture there were labels and descriptive terms used used.
A well intentioned person[who resists the labels] sorts out people and churches by what they believe anyhow.
If you wander into a RC. church and a "priest" tries to get you to eat a wafer
claiming it is Jesus...you will figure it out .
Learn the "labels" accurately and see where you fit biblically:type:
LOL I see what you mean. Makes sense.
I just don't like to say "Calvanist" because SOO many people when they hear that think in their minds "Hypercalvanist". Then they're like "ohhh you're one of those. You don't believe that you can win souls to Christ..." arghhhhhh!
And I don't usually say I'm Baptist, since there is such a BROAD range of Baptist denominations, some that believe extremely liberal things and others that are too much the other way, banning...hair clips or something silly like that, LOL.
I will say that I go to an Independent Baptist Church. I used to go to a Free Presbyterian Church. Then I continue on to tell people what our particular church believes. No-works Salvation - it's through Christ only, KJV, etc.
Actually I don't call myself American, LOL I call myself Canadian
PS: I'm not trying to appear 'spiritual' by saying this. It's just what I believe. Trying to appear spiritual would be...phariseical
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LOL I see what you mean. Makes sense.
I just don't like to say "Calvanist" because SOO many people when they hear that think in their minds "Hypercalvanist". Then they're like "ohhh you're one of those. You don't believe that you can win souls to Christ..." arghhhhhh!
And I don't usually say I'm Baptist, since there is such a BROAD range of Baptist denominations, some that believe extremely liberal things and others that are too much the other way, banning...hair clips or something silly like that, LOL.
I will say that I go to an Independent Baptist Church. I used to go to a Free Presbyterian Church. Then I continue on to tell people what our particular church believes. No-works Salvation - it's through Christ only, KJV, etc.
Actually I don't call myself American, LOL I call myself Canadian
PS: I'm not trying to appear 'spiritual' by saying this. It's just what I believe. Trying to appear spiritual would be...phariseical
I like the Free Presbyterians. Ian Paisely is probably my favorite living preacher.
Which Free Presbyterian Church did you attend?
Yes. And it's yours.
Non cals can easily tell who isn't the elect. They're the ones who reject Christ. So choose this day whom you will serve. God has provided the way.
Then you've never met a Calvinist. Just read the posts on this board for a starter.
Understand Completely...thats how I feel.
Nobody tries to get you to eat a wafer....thats an absurd statement. When I walk into a Baptist Church, do they try to dunk me?
You can thank the Sword of the Lord for that.
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