Soteriology and a Personal Statement of Salvation

[Tom Butler]

"Already, but not yet..."

A great term that describes our salvation, which is indeed not complete until we are glorified and standing in the presence of the One who makes it possible.

I wrote my testimony in another thread, so feel free to check that out. We necessarily use the terms "I", "me", and other personal pronouns when sharing our testimony because it happened to us.

One question I would pose here is:

Does one call on God, then believe; or does one believe, then call on God?

It can be done without "I," but not without "me."

In response to your question, I submit that one does not have to call on God. I know, you're thinking of Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." But the verse does not say call on God. It says "call on the NAME of the Lord." That's not the same thing.

Further, the Ethiopian eunuch did not ask God to save him. And the Philippian jailer was not told to call call on God, but to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The same Paul also said we would be saved if we confessed Christ as Lord, and believed that he rose from the dead.

The Sunday morning the Lord saved me, my pastor did not mention asking God for salvation. He asked several questions. Among them, do you understand that you are a sinner? Do you understand that Jesus died on the cross for sinners just like you? Do you repent of your sin? Do you trust him and him alone as your Savior and Lord?

Now, do I believe that if one calls out to God in repentance and faith, asking God for mercy? I do.

 

[glfredrick]

So far, I've gotten two responses to my question, but both have missed the nuances of the question and assumed that I was thinking of something else.

I'll explain a bit...

If we call on God, whom we do not believe, who are we calling on, and why?

If we believe, then call on God, from where came the belief?

Then, there is what the Bible says about the issue -- Romans 10, yes, but not just verse 13. Paul goes on...

Rom 10:13-14 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Starting at the end and working back to the beginning we can discern Paul's order as: (1) How can they hear unless there is a (sent) preacher (implied "preaching the gospel")? (2) How can they believe if they have not heard? (3) How can they call if they have not believed? (4) And, those who do believe and call will be saved.

Tom says that we do not have to call on the Lord, but rather on the name of the Lord. (I see no difference, in either case we're calling on the Lord and that is what Paul implies in v. 14.)

Menageriekeeper says, "Neither. Christ draws, man responds (belief or disbelief)."

Both responses fail to take into account what Paul is telling us and neither takes into account my actual question.

Again, from where comes the belief that allows one to call upon the Lord (or the name of the Lord)? And, how is that different from a person seeking God calling on His name or calling out to Him, and asking Him to give belief?

It would seem that the nuance of that passage is lost on those who would suggest that we "call out to God" then God saves us. Paul is indicating that we believe before we call, which would imply (in a passage that Arminians really like to use!) that God's actions precede man's, and in precisely the manner I described, i.e., that the Holy Spirit uses the words of the truth of the gospel to do His work in the heart of a lost person before they ever even know that they need to "decide" to call out to God.

 

[zrs6v4]

Your testimony is blessing to me.

I bolded a line that impressed me. Why don't you take that line and run with it, explaining how it was all Him? What was the work God did in you? How come you were blind, but then could see (spiritually)? Who made you see and hate your sin? Who put in you the desire to cling to and serve the Lord? Where did all that come from?

C'mon, give it another try.

It was like the Spirit came and pointed out things in my mind, giving me direction. He caused me to think about life, eternity, what the purpose was, and many serious questions over the span of a few days. At some point after He secretly led me to read the Bible He directly pointed out and illuminated my sin against God and to some degree revealed that it was dreadful and was destroying everything. He caused the goodness of God to be illuminated, and thus caused me to go from a self-justifying attempt to satisfy God and move on with my life unto some kind of desire to live life with and be close to God. This happened after He led me to open up to God like never before. The change that had happened was a work of the Spirit, I can't say specifically if it was regeneration or if it was Him working in me much like the reformed view of regeneration. Either way it was Him who caused me to see spiritually. Yet, while seeing I felt blind . All of this was in light of what Jesus had done on the cross. That really bothered me at that time. How I had called myself a Christian and yet lived my life completely against Christ. At that point by a complete work of God, I for the first time understood my need for a Savior and wanted His ways.

 

[Tom Butler]

It was like the Spirit came and pointed out things in my mind, giving me direction. He caused me to think about life, eternity, what the purpose was, and many serious questions over the span of a few days. At some point after He secretly led me to read the Bible He directly pointed out and illuminated my sin against God and to some degree revealed that it was dreadful and was destroying everything. He caused the goodness of God to be illuminated, and thus caused me to go from a self-justifying attempt to satisfy God and move on with my life unto some kind of desire to live life with and be close to God. This happened after He led me to open up to God like never before. The change that had happened was a work of the Spirit, I can't say specifically if it was regeneration or if it was Him working in me much like the reformed view of regeneration. Either way it was Him who caused me to see spiritually. Yet, while seeing I felt blind . All of this was in light of what Jesus had done on the cross. That really bothered me at that time. How I had called myself a Christian and yet lived my life completely against Christ. At that point by a complete work of God, I for the first time understood my need for a Savior and wanted His ways.

Oh wow, what a God-honoring testimony!

 

[Tom Butler]

It was a Sunday morning in April 1947 when the Holy Spirit revealed to me, at age nine, my sin. Despite hearing many sermons, some on Hell, some on the cross, some on Jesus' death to secure my salvation, none of them registered with me. Until that day. Suddenly, with a Spirit-illuminated mind came a new awareness of my sin and a view of it in the same way that God sees it.

In quick order, following illumination and conviction, came the drawing. It was that drawing which propelled me down the aisle, in tears, to my pastor.

Why are you coming? To be saved.
Do you understand what it means to be a sinner? Yes
Do you understand the penalty for sin? Yes
Will you trust Christ and him alone to save you? Yes.
Do you trust him now? Yes.
Sit down over there.

It may not be the same for everybody, but for me the Holy Spirit illuminated, convicted, drew and regenerated in a very short time span. My faithfulness has faltered on occasion, but God has been faithful from then until now.

 

[Luke2427]

This is kind of an open-ended thread on soteriology.

I posted this message on another thread in response to someone asking me when I was "saved."

"I believe I came to faith at 7. I don't like to say "saved" in this context as much because salvation won't be complete until I'm on the renewed earth. I needed to mature quite a bit before I was ready for baptism. Long story, but my parents pressured me so much about baptism even as a small child, that it took a while before I could get there on my own."

Another poster, who I will not name, almost immediately made this statement.

"There's so much wrong with this that I'm not even going to bother. It does tell me quite a bit about you though..."

My question is, "Do you agree that my post resembles an accurate example of biblical soteriology?" If so, why? If not, why not?

Absolutely- and I am getting ready for church now but I will return and post why later.

 

[Tom Butler]

So far, I've gotten two responses to my question, but both have missed the nuances of the question and assumed that I was thinking of something else.

You're right, I messed the subtlety of the question.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit, in addition to his other work in salvation, creates faith and grants repentance, to whom He will.

 

[menageriekeeper]

And I don't. I believe the Holy Spirit only comes to those already drawn by Christ, who are willing to believe and are already, though they made not understand it, already believing. Like the one who asked Christ "Lord help my unbelief", there are those who sort of believe, are willing to believe, yet need just that extra bit of inspiration by the Holy Spirit to fully commit. (remember, non Cal here)

 

[zrs6v4]

And I don't. I believe the Holy Spirit only comes to those already drawn by Christ, who are willing to believe and are already, though they made not understand it, already believing. Like the one who asked Christ "Lord help my unbelief", there are those who sort of believe, are willing to believe, yet need just that extra bit of inspiration by the Holy Spirit to fully commit. (remember, non Cal here)

How do you explain these passages (I'll explain them from my view, then you do yours): Please please take your time and read this, I spent a lot of time putting this together as a response for you. Forget Cal or non-cal and focus on the Scripture.

John 6:35, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will not thirst."

- Jesus clearly shows that He is the life and we must believe in Him, then says:

6:36, "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe."

The issue is that while people see Him they are unbelieving. Now watch what He says:

6:37, "All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Notice here Jesus explains why people believe and don't believe.... It is because they need to be given to the Son by the Father (The sheep that is, we will see in a minute).... How does the Father give them to the Son? we will see in 6:44.

6:38, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." What is the Father's will? It is to save the sheep. It is to die for their sins on a cross and raise again. Jesus says this over and over. Watch:

6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it on the last day." See. The Father gives the Son the chosen sheep/elect and Jesus purchases them and loses none of them. Who are the sheep?

6:40, "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him on the last day."

Lets summarize:
v. 35- people who believe in the Son have life
v. 36- people don't believe even though they see
v. 37- All the Father chooses will come to Jesus and believe like vs 35 says
v. 38- Jesus came to do His Father's will
v. 39- The Father's will was for Jesus to purchase His sheep
v. 40- repeat vs 35, all who believe will have eternal life

Here is how the people believe:

In verse 41-43 we see that people had a hard time believing that Jesus came from heaven because of he was Joseph's son. So Jesus said:

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him and I will raise Him on the last day." Jesus lumped up verses 35-40 here, read them again. How does the Father draw His elect? watch:

6:45, "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY ALL SHALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
What does it mean to hear and learn from the Father?

John 6:46, "Not that anyone has seen the Father." Jesus said this because hearing and learning from the Father does not mean physically, but spiritually. In 6:47-51 repeats and expands on His teaching we have covered. Then in 6:52 we see that people don't spiritually get his message like the Jews in John 2, Nicodemus in John 3, the woman at the well in John 4, etc. They blindly wonder how Jesus is going to let them cannibalize. They were blind, yet could physically see! In John 53-58, Jesus again expounds upon believing in Him with His figurative language.

Then we find the answers to our questions:
1. We know that those who believe have life.
2. Those who believe are given to the Son by the Father.
3. The Father draws and teaches to give the sheep to the Son.
Question unanswered: So how does He draw them? Lets find out-

John 6:59- This was done in Capernaum in the synagogue.
John 6:60- Many followers grumbled because of His difficult teaching... They confessed they were confused...
John 6:61- Jesus asked, "Does this cause you to stumble?" Answer: Yes
John 6:62- He asked, "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?" Im not sure what Jesus is doing here, but it seems like He is trying to to say that there is nothing they can do to get it, not even a great miracle. See Luke 16:31

HERE'S THE BIG POINT: Jesus here shows how the Father teaches and draws:

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." Here Jesus shows How the Fathers will works and why the people didn't get it. The Father chooses and draws the sheep by the Spirit through the work of Christ. The flesh profits nothing, nothing at all. Jesus shows that His words He was speaking were spiritual words. Remember what He said to Nicodemus:

John 3:12, "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" In other words, You can't believe earthly words therefore you definitely cannot hear spiritual words. They are given by the Father through the Spirit. He alone gives Life.

After Jesus said this to the people at Capernaum repeating earlier teaching up to 6:44:

John 6:64, "There are some of you who do not believe." Why? Because
1. They need to be elect sheep.
2. They need to be taught words and drawn
3. They need the Spirit to give them these words.

John 6:65, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." See. Nobody believes unless it is given to them from the Father! Read 6:63-65 again together.

This connects to John 10 beautifully, I wont be so lengthy:

10:3, "The sheep hear his voice and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."
10:11: "I am the good shepherd; he good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
10:14: "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me"
10:15: "Even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; I lay down My lief for the sheep."
10:16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

After Jesus spoke this about the sheep, the Jews were arguing whether or whether not He was insane. They asked Him if He was the Christ and He said:

10:25, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me."

10:26, "But you do not believe because you are not My sheep."

10:27, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."
10:28, "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
10:29, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand."

 

[Tom Butler]

Although the language used by Calvinists and non-Calvinists in giving their personal testimonies may vary, I surely hope we can squelch any temptation to debate election in this thread.

Seems to me we might appropriately explain how the language we use is driven by our view of the Doctrines of Grace. But we don't need to debate them here.

For instance, I wrote that the Holy Spirit "created faith" in me. And, that God granted repentance, that is, the desire and ability to repent and exercise saving faith. That is a direct influence of my Calvinism.

Does your view have an influence on how you tell of God's saving grace? I suspect that it does.

There is a similarity in the testimonies related so far. And because it is so personal, and we're aware of our reactions and thoughts in conversion, it is so easy to use "I" when talking about it. My own recollection is that at the time the Lord saved me, the process was the furthest thing from my mind. It was only in retrospect, many years later, that through the scriptures I became aware of all that the Trinity did in bringing about my salvation.

I knew nothing of illuminating, drawing, convicting, regenerating. All I knew at the time was that I was blind, but now I saw. My sins were gone.

As I learned from scripture all that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did for sinners like me, only then did it occur to me to revise my testimony to place the emphasis on what they did instead of what I did.

The Lord saved Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Baptist, Catholics and atheists the same way. We just express it in different ways.

 

[Old Union Brother]

My Experience of Grace

At about the age of 12 years old, I heard the call of God and rejected his call. I wandered in sin for 11 years, always hearing that call but rejecting it. When I was 23 years old God called to me like never before and a fear set up in me that I can't describe. He showed me that that I could hear but was still deaf, I could see but still blind and I could walk but was still crippled. When God showed me all of these things, I had to repent with a Godly sorrow; I had to travel through a trail of tears, begging to be delivered from the sinful state I was in. I worked myself out of works. God let me realize that my works were as filthy rags in His sight. When I came to the end of my strength, God worked a work in me that no mortal man could work. He anointed my eyes so that I could see his work. He touched my ears so that I could hear His marvelous word. He touched my lameness and let me walk in his wondrous light. But most of all he resurrected me to a lively Hope in him. Praise be to God for his loving Grace that made me whole and set me free through the precious blood of the Christ. I thank him daily for the gift of life that he gave me through his beautiful Son. :jesus:

 

[convicted1]

May 24, 2007, approx 1:30 AM in a hospital lab in Paintsville, Ky, God saved a sinner from his sins. About a year earlier, Grace showed the lost condition of the soul, and began drawing that individual. Through that drawing, a Godly sorrow set up, and tears of anguish flowed for months. Denying oneself is a hard thing to do. In this process, the Spirit showed what needed to be done, and then that person followed. Prayers of tears, sorrow, pleading one's case before the Great I am seemed to get no where. Pleading a case that had nothing to plead with. Then on that glorious morning of May 24, 2007, the clouds rolled back, the Son shined through, a weight of sin was lifted and cast as far away as the east is the west, the prodical son had come home, the drought was over, and rain fell and filled the soul, the dove had returned to the ark with an olive leaf in its mouth, you get the picture. Someone was made alive to live!! What a day that was..........and go there from time to time to get revived in what God did for an unworthy sinner!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

There, I did that without one "I":tongue3:

 

[Tom Butler]

Willis,

Yaaaaaaaay!

No "I" and no "me," either, although "me" is fine, since "me" does not act, but is the recipient of action.

Shoot, I'm getting such a blessing from these testimonies, I don't care if you use "I" or not.

 

[webdog]

It's a question of emphasis. The exercise is designed to make us the recipients of the acts of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There's nothing wrong with the use of I. But my use of I eleven times in my post #6, tended to make me the actor, with God sorta standing by until I did my part.

All of us will agree that we are the objects of God's grace. But most personal testimonies I have heard seem to emphasize what we did and God as the responder to our actions and thoughts. We don't believe that. So let's make our testimonies conform to what we actually believe.

Thanks for giving it a shot, menageriekeeper. Good effort. It's not easy, is it?

BTW, objective pronouns such as me and us are acceptable. So are my and our, which are possessives.

All it does is make a person talk in the third person. It does not in any way de-emphasize "I", your camp included. As was previously stated, salvation is personal. When He knocks He expects ME to answer. "For by grace are YOU saved through faith" also means "For by grace I was saved through faith".

 

[glfredrick]

All it does is make a person talk in the third person. It does not in any way de-emphasize "I", your camp included. As was previously stated, salvation is personal. When He knocks He expects ME to answer. "For by grace are YOU saved through faith" also means "For by grace I was saved through faith".

Of course!

Especially the part where you say, "When He knocks, He expects ME to answer." :smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Of course!

Especially the part where you say, "When He knocks, He expects ME to answer." :smilewinkgrin:

I emphasized that on purpose

So when Christ knocks you expect "Hey, can someone else get that door"

 

[glfredrick]

I emphasized that on purpose

So when Christ knocks you expect "Hey, can someone else get that door"

Does that passage actually speak to salvific evangelism? If not, your context is already out of sorts, so any conclusion you may draw from it regarding salvation is misplaced.

 

[webdog]

Does that passage actually speak to salvific evangelism? If not, your context is already out of sorts, so any conclusion you may draw from it regarding salvation is misplaced.

Well, I don't know too many true churches having Christ on the outside, do you?

 

[Tom Butler]

All it does is make a person talk in the third person. It does not in any way de-emphasize "I", your camp included. As was previously stated, salvation is personal. When He knocks He expects ME to answer. "For by grace are YOU saved through faith" also means "For by grace I was saved through faith".

web, this was an exercise, and that's all it was. And I granted your point in post #30:

There is a similarity in the testimonies related so far. And because it is so personal, and we're aware of our reactions and thoughts in conversion, it is so easy to use "I" when talking about it. My own recollection is that at the time the Lord saved me, the process was the furthest thing from my mind. It was only in retrospect, many years later, that through the scriptures I became aware of all that the Trinity did in bringing about my salvation.

When I was a Television News Director, I gave all my reporters an assignment. Write a news story without ever using any form of "to be."

That means be, am, are, is, was and were are off limits. Or, as I should have written, I declare off limits the words be, am, are, is, was and were.

The exercise was designed (or, I designed the exercise) to force them to think about it whenever they wanted to use a form of "to be." It was an attempt to get them to write more in the active voice.

That's all this exercise was about--to make us think, and try to bring our testimony in line with what our soteriology is.

It's not easy and takes some real thinking about how to do it. It took me a long, long time before I stopped saying, "I got saved," and got comfortable with "The Lord saved me." The salvation is the same, but emphasis is different.

 

[glfredrick]

Well, I don't know too many true churches having Christ on the outside, do you?

You are correct when you say that the passage is directed at churches -- which are made up of regenerated persons. Therefore, you miss the point of the passage when you use it as a proof text for evangelism. Christ is contending with those already evangelized, not the lost, when He says that He would like to come in! He made a point of the church at Laodicea that they, though calling themselves a "church," did not let even their Master and Savior into their midst.

If anything, this passage describes churches (loosely used) like Joel Olsteen, T.D. Jakes, etc., or worse, cults like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, who are heretical or close to it in their doctrines and practice, yet say that they represent Christ. It is not an evangelism passage, but it has been used that way by so many for so long, that it is now one of the go-to passages.