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I have changed my view on these doctrines:
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
preacher4truth
Active Member
Thanks for the new thread. It's thoughtful.
One doctrine I have begun to change my view on is that of free will. I am not so convinced man has free will, as I used to be. In College, it was not really discussed. IFB pastors always had a short quip about it, or a rant and rage sermon about it, or would ask how many "points" are you? It never went much further. I never knew how many points I was so I never worried about it.
After years of being around KJB camps, and sorry to say, shallow sermons, narrow views, funny mentalist attitudes, ostracization over non-essentials and the like, I distanced myself and have since been with the SBC.
Part of this is about my testimony. Unfortunate things happen, and we do things ourselves, and I got away from walking with Christ.
God was instrumental in causing things to happen to me and my life, and bring me to a place where I repented and turned to the Father. He forgave me. But the thing that happened was I saw God causing things to happen, against my will I thought in a sense, almost to where I felt he was goading and driving me this way, back to Him. The things that happened caused me to desire Him. But I remember thinking, "God, you can't do that, it's like you are forcing me down some path." It was hard for me to "kick against the goads" so to speak. That's the best way I can explain it.
Romans 2:4 has been a life verse to me. His goodness "leadeth" us to repentance. I don't believe this is exclusive to those not already born again.
All of this has caused me to think about His Sovereignty. Also there was a SS teacher who delved into these things. I ran out and bought books, puritan wrtings, visited "Sovereign" churches, explored it, saw it in Scripture, and am embracing it. To me, the fact God is in Sovereign control over all has magnified Him to me in a tremendous way. I am still learning all of this about Him. One thing also, I thank Him for doing what He did in my life to bring me to where I am today. I owe Him more than all.
All of this has also led me to seek out even another Bible version. I don't and never have believed in KJVO and all of that. If some do, hey, that is OK with me. I have checked this out for months, I have struggled with guilt over it. But I am reminded guilt about that is not from Him. It's an Baptist culture that brought it about. This is why I made the thread ESV or NASB? I needed help, insight, and encouragement.
Anyhow, these are things that have happened to me, and I am glad for it all, every bit of it.
Another deciding factor that has lead me this way was I always felt the concept and view of God in most IFB churches I attended was inadequate and shallow and too much "preacher said" authority that no one was to question. I am well aware all IFB's are not this way though. But I knew there was way more, and I wasn't satisfied. There still is way more to discover about Him.
- Blessings
One doctrine I have begun to change my view on is that of free will. I am not so convinced man has free will, as I used to be. In College, it was not really discussed. IFB pastors always had a short quip about it, or a rant and rage sermon about it, or would ask how many "points" are you? It never went much further. I never knew how many points I was so I never worried about it.
After years of being around KJB camps, and sorry to say, shallow sermons, narrow views, funny mentalist attitudes, ostracization over non-essentials and the like, I distanced myself and have since been with the SBC.
Part of this is about my testimony. Unfortunate things happen, and we do things ourselves, and I got away from walking with Christ.
God was instrumental in causing things to happen to me and my life, and bring me to a place where I repented and turned to the Father. He forgave me. But the thing that happened was I saw God causing things to happen, against my will I thought in a sense, almost to where I felt he was goading and driving me this way, back to Him. The things that happened caused me to desire Him. But I remember thinking, "God, you can't do that, it's like you are forcing me down some path." It was hard for me to "kick against the goads" so to speak. That's the best way I can explain it.
Romans 2:4 has been a life verse to me. His goodness "leadeth" us to repentance. I don't believe this is exclusive to those not already born again.
All of this has caused me to think about His Sovereignty. Also there was a SS teacher who delved into these things. I ran out and bought books, puritan wrtings, visited "Sovereign" churches, explored it, saw it in Scripture, and am embracing it. To me, the fact God is in Sovereign control over all has magnified Him to me in a tremendous way. I am still learning all of this about Him. One thing also, I thank Him for doing what He did in my life to bring me to where I am today. I owe Him more than all.
All of this has also led me to seek out even another Bible version. I don't and never have believed in KJVO and all of that. If some do, hey, that is OK with me. I have checked this out for months, I have struggled with guilt over it. But I am reminded guilt about that is not from Him. It's an Baptist culture that brought it about. This is why I made the thread ESV or NASB? I needed help, insight, and encouragement.
Anyhow, these are things that have happened to me, and I am glad for it all, every bit of it.
Another deciding factor that has lead me this way was I always felt the concept and view of God in most IFB churches I attended was inadequate and shallow and too much "preacher said" authority that no one was to question. I am well aware all IFB's are not this way though. But I knew there was way more, and I wasn't satisfied. There still is way more to discover about Him.
- Blessings
Last edited by a moderator:
What Bible doctrines have you changed your views on over the years?and what caused you to realize a change was necessary.
Salty
Eschatology: From Hal Lindsey's "Terminal Generation" mindset to Amillennialism to Preterism.
Soteriology: From Whosoever-Freewillism to Soveriegnty of God (as in 1 Cor. 1:30-31)
Bible: I have come full-circle, come to think of it, on this issue. I started out with a 100% reliance on the Bible. Then I was greatly influenced by creedal influences when I started appreciating Reformed doctrine. But now I no longer have that great confidence in creeds, seeing that:
A. the fact that Preterism is not found in the creeds has been often pointed out to me and
B. the fact that salvation by faith was not found in the creeds was, likewise, pointed out to Martin Luther by his RC antagonists.
These are the three main areas I have changed in my beliefs.
Good topic.
glfredrick
New Member
From the beginning of my journey to now, I've changed my mind on several theological items based on my study of the Word.
First, eschatology... My first exposure was to a dispensational pre-trib view, and I've since come to see the many and varied flaws in that system. I now hold to a new view that is neither covenantal (also has flaws) or dispensational, but rather based in God's elective historical/salvific movement. I do not easily fit into one of the three main models, pre-millennial, amillennial, or post-millennial, but rather hold to a millennial model with the rapture coming at mid-stride in the tribulation period.
Second, soteriology... Coming to understand the multiple phases of salvation has halted (for me at least) all the bantering between sovereignty and will, because God is the author of certain phases of salvation and we participate with God in certain phases of salvation. The answer is yes/and not either/or. To simply say that we are "saved" absolutely misses the point and allows for the same sort of errors that crop up in other discussions such as evolution. The term is simply too broad and too misinterpreted to be useful as a distinguishing factor for establishing theological grounding.
Third, hermeneutics... Learning the biblical languages has exposed to me many of the common errors in hermeneutics, some of which I was guilty of holding. When I hear common phrases like, "You can make the Bible say anything you like..." I agree -- that is, until we explore the original languages. At that point the Word becomes crystal clear (for the most part -- there are difficult passages that we understand based on other more easily grasped passages) and we find that the Word says one thing, very precisely, with implications for all people in all ages.
Fourth, creation... I've bounced all over the place on this issue since before I was a Christian to today. I grew up holding a very simplistic view, "God made everything." I discarded that view when exposed to atheistic naturalism, and then theistic evolution and a host of other views along that continuum. Of note, I've returned to my earliest simplistic view that "God made everything..." but in a whole new and informed light. I now know the mechanics behind our cosmos, and the theology behind the Creation story, and I come based in a combination of loyalty to God's Word, theological directives, and evidence from nature, which combine to be an unshakable force.
Fifth, marriage... With no frame of reference, I held that marriage was a partnership agreement between husband and wife, and that valid reasons may exist for the breaking of that partnership. I then ventured into the ground that I've seen so many times in the church, that marriage is a duty, and that we need to work some sort of godly law to exist in the marriage relationship. I've since learned about God's grace, and how He has purposefully given us human marriage to demonstrate in the most tangible of ways His glory, His grace, His relationship, and His mentoring by the Holy Spirit. Marriage is all of that and more! I now prize marriage more highly than ANY other belief, thing, object, or action, save our atonement and salvation by Jesus Christ. Marriage is akin to the gospel, and wrong beliefs about it equal wrong beliefs about God and the gospel.
Sixth, the Doctrines of Grace... I've always held to God's sovereignty, but like many, I was raised in a church atmosphere that 99% of the time was solidly human-centered, so I gravitated toward the Arminian perspective. Like many, I also wanted to hold to God's sovereignty, but the two do not seem to reconcile well (from a human vantage point). I came down on the side of God's sovereignty, for I simply cannot place anything above the power, reach, ability, direction, actions, will, etc., of our Almighty God, not even my own human will. Since studying this issue, I've solidified my beliefs in the Doctrines of Grace, but I have at the same time moved away from traditional Calvinism as the expression of those doctrines. They are all that and more from a biblical perspective -- the only one we're truly allowed to have.
I'm sure there are other points, such as an understanding of grace, forgiveness, sin, etc., but they mostly all fall under one of the above mentioned areas.
First, eschatology... My first exposure was to a dispensational pre-trib view, and I've since come to see the many and varied flaws in that system. I now hold to a new view that is neither covenantal (also has flaws) or dispensational, but rather based in God's elective historical/salvific movement. I do not easily fit into one of the three main models, pre-millennial, amillennial, or post-millennial, but rather hold to a millennial model with the rapture coming at mid-stride in the tribulation period.
Second, soteriology... Coming to understand the multiple phases of salvation has halted (for me at least) all the bantering between sovereignty and will, because God is the author of certain phases of salvation and we participate with God in certain phases of salvation. The answer is yes/and not either/or. To simply say that we are "saved" absolutely misses the point and allows for the same sort of errors that crop up in other discussions such as evolution. The term is simply too broad and too misinterpreted to be useful as a distinguishing factor for establishing theological grounding.
Third, hermeneutics... Learning the biblical languages has exposed to me many of the common errors in hermeneutics, some of which I was guilty of holding. When I hear common phrases like, "You can make the Bible say anything you like..." I agree -- that is, until we explore the original languages. At that point the Word becomes crystal clear (for the most part -- there are difficult passages that we understand based on other more easily grasped passages) and we find that the Word says one thing, very precisely, with implications for all people in all ages.
Fourth, creation... I've bounced all over the place on this issue since before I was a Christian to today. I grew up holding a very simplistic view, "God made everything." I discarded that view when exposed to atheistic naturalism, and then theistic evolution and a host of other views along that continuum. Of note, I've returned to my earliest simplistic view that "God made everything..." but in a whole new and informed light. I now know the mechanics behind our cosmos, and the theology behind the Creation story, and I come based in a combination of loyalty to God's Word, theological directives, and evidence from nature, which combine to be an unshakable force.
Fifth, marriage... With no frame of reference, I held that marriage was a partnership agreement between husband and wife, and that valid reasons may exist for the breaking of that partnership. I then ventured into the ground that I've seen so many times in the church, that marriage is a duty, and that we need to work some sort of godly law to exist in the marriage relationship. I've since learned about God's grace, and how He has purposefully given us human marriage to demonstrate in the most tangible of ways His glory, His grace, His relationship, and His mentoring by the Holy Spirit. Marriage is all of that and more! I now prize marriage more highly than ANY other belief, thing, object, or action, save our atonement and salvation by Jesus Christ. Marriage is akin to the gospel, and wrong beliefs about it equal wrong beliefs about God and the gospel.
Sixth, the Doctrines of Grace... I've always held to God's sovereignty, but like many, I was raised in a church atmosphere that 99% of the time was solidly human-centered, so I gravitated toward the Arminian perspective. Like many, I also wanted to hold to God's sovereignty, but the two do not seem to reconcile well (from a human vantage point). I came down on the side of God's sovereignty, for I simply cannot place anything above the power, reach, ability, direction, actions, will, etc., of our Almighty God, not even my own human will. Since studying this issue, I've solidified my beliefs in the Doctrines of Grace, but I have at the same time moved away from traditional Calvinism as the expression of those doctrines. They are all that and more from a biblical perspective -- the only one we're truly allowed to have.
I'm sure there are other points, such as an understanding of grace, forgiveness, sin, etc., but they mostly all fall under one of the above mentioned areas.
These aren't exactly doctrines, more like opinions, but I've changed my viewpoint on:
KJVO--I was raised KJVO, everything else was a "perversion" but I now disagree. I'm still KJV-preferred, but I no longer believe it's a sin to use any other version.
Republics are "good" and Democrats are "bad"--Now I realize there's good and bad in every political party, and the Republicans are not all Christians who will fight against the evils in society.
Separation to the nth degree--We don't live in a perfect little Christian bubble. Christ rubbed shoulders with sinners, he didn't avoid them like the plague except to dart out and throw tracts at them the way IFB's are taught to do.
Yep, this IFB gal has come a long way.
KJVO--I was raised KJVO, everything else was a "perversion" but I now disagree. I'm still KJV-preferred, but I no longer believe it's a sin to use any other version.
Republics are "good" and Democrats are "bad"--Now I realize there's good and bad in every political party, and the Republicans are not all Christians who will fight against the evils in society.
Separation to the nth degree--We don't live in a perfect little Christian bubble. Christ rubbed shoulders with sinners, he didn't avoid them like the plague except to dart out and throw tracts at them the way IFB's are taught to do.
Yep, this IFB gal has come a long way.
glfredrick
New Member
Yupers... And some in your past might suggest that you have been polluted and perverted by "the world." That seems to be standard fare.
I especially like your point about separation. That is one of the things I've come to see in the Scriptures. God calls us to holiness, but that term is not defined scripturally the same way that it is in many a church or believer. The end result of holiness the way it is often taught or preached puts us in a stone room in a monastery, daily placing our bodies, minds, hearts, and souls in submission and penance for our sin, and at the end of the day absolutely missing the Great Commandment and Great Commission of Jesus Christ!
I'd say that the enemy is SO pleased when people get that "religious" for God, because those same people become worthless to the kingdom.
I recall that one of the charges brought up against Christ during His (mock) trial, was that He hung around with sinners...
soteriology - from free will to Calvinism to the Primitive Baptist Doctrine of Grace.
Bible - from KJV only to KJV Preferred.
Missions - from missions to non-missions as missions is seen today.
Tithing - to offerings.
Musical Instruments to no musical instruments in worship.
No more Sunday Schools for me.
No more Preachers' Conferences or Seminaries.
And while I don't mind Associations, I'd rather not be part of any.
Bible - from KJV only to KJV Preferred.
Missions - from missions to non-missions as missions is seen today.
Tithing - to offerings.
Musical Instruments to no musical instruments in worship.
No more Sunday Schools for me.
No more Preachers' Conferences or Seminaries.
And while I don't mind Associations, I'd rather not be part of any.
Been saved nearly 54 years. While I got a "good dose" of salvation (you know what I mean) and immersed in good teaching/mentoring in a local church that housed the largest Baptist seminary in the north, I have seen very little change in doctrine. But a TON of change in practice.
Doctrines?
Practice?
Doctrines?
- From 4.5 calvinist to 5 pointer
- From dependence on English translation (fraught with problems) to Greek
- From playing church to actually imitating Acts 2 content/activity
- From "soteriologial" (everything driven to get numbers/converts) to "doxological (glorifying God)
- From following man-made rules ton a lifestyle and ministry that lives in submission and obedience to God’s Word
Practice?
- From man-made standeerds to a biblical "godliness"
- From abstinence to moderation
- From christian school to home school
- From Jewish tithing to freewill offerings (and not ALL thru the local church)
- From willy-nilly singing to doctrinally-sound and usually OLD hymns
- From a ton of "programs" to family-oriented
- From graded Sunday School to parental teaching
- From IFB to Reformed Baptist, but unaffiliated with any group
- From pastor-centered dictatorship to plurality of elder leading
- From rules (test of "spirituality") to promoting and supporting the spiritual growth and maturation of each individual
- From just “going” to church to “being” a church
- From self-seeking myopia to a social Gospel bearing one another’s burdens
- From an attitude of distrust to a godly atmosphere of mutual trust, support, fellowship, loving relationships, and spiritual transformation
This almost MIRRORS my testimony.
I changed from
- a man centered philosophy of ministry to a Christ centered one
- a"soteriologial" (everything driven to get numbers/converts) to "doxological (glorifying God)- could not improve on Dr. Bob's wording here.
- from KJVO to the Greek.
- willy-nilly singing to doctrinally-sound and usually OLD hymns- could not improve on Dr. Bob's wording here again, except to say those hymns must be God magnifying.
- five point arminian to five point Calvinist
- preaching the text to preaching the Savior from the text (understanding that the whole Bible is about Jesus and using my username as my guide in the study [Luke 24:27]) In other words from issue oriented preaching to Savior centered preaching.
- pastor being the unilateral leader to the pastor leading leaders and casting and filtering his vision to and through those leaders out to the congregation.
- against denomination missions believing that the local church should alone be sending missionaries to being for IMB and NAMB, etc...
- being an absolute teetotaler to believing the Bible teaches moderation in lifestyle and allows for an occasional "blow it out" for His glory. Didn't say I do it- just that I see it in the Scriptures.
- man made standards being the definition of godliness to man made standards being the definition of UNgodliness.
Eschatology - pretrib to amill
Bible - KJV to modern versions
Women as pastors - from no to yes
Pastoral - pastor as final authority to pastor as a voice and influence, congregation as final authority (as messy as that is sometimes)
Preaching - I use lectionary now (though not exclusively)
some things that have not changed:
actually stronger in baptist beliefs so I guess that is a change of sorts but I grew up in a strong baptist church
local church is best
churches sending missionaries
I'm sure there are more but those come to my mind immediately
Bible - KJV to modern versions
Women as pastors - from no to yes
Pastoral - pastor as final authority to pastor as a voice and influence, congregation as final authority (as messy as that is sometimes)
Preaching - I use lectionary now (though not exclusively)
some things that have not changed:
actually stronger in baptist beliefs so I guess that is a change of sorts but I grew up in a strong baptist church
local church is best
churches sending missionaries
I'm sure there are more but those come to my mind immediately
menageriekeeper
Active Member
LOL, I must be set in my ways. I haven't changed much. There are issues I was raised with that I never really believed, but practiced out of respect to my parents or the church we were attending. Some of those are:
KJVO to Modern versions
dresses only to modesty
teetotalling to ummm, not
tithes to freewill offerings
the definition of "worldliness" (ie, I don't believe having a deck of playing cards in the house will send set me on the road to hell)
While we are on the issue of "the road to hell", I don't believe the things we do after we are saved will put us back on it. (my mother never quite got that idea I don't believe)
One does not go to hell because they lied, murdered or slept with their neighbor. Those are the things one does naturally as a person who rejects Christ. Hell is the destination for those who reject Christ.
I'm sliding from a pretrib sort of viewpoint but I haven't found a place a to stop.
I no longer hold to a strict seperatist view or I couldn't be here! (jk)
KJVO to Modern versions
dresses only to modesty
teetotalling to ummm, not
tithes to freewill offerings
the definition of "worldliness" (ie, I don't believe having a deck of playing cards in the house will send set me on the road to hell)
While we are on the issue of "the road to hell", I don't believe the things we do after we are saved will put us back on it. (my mother never quite got that idea I don't believe)
One does not go to hell because they lied, murdered or slept with their neighbor. Those are the things one does naturally as a person who rejects Christ. Hell is the destination for those who reject Christ.
I'm sliding from a pretrib sort of viewpoint but I haven't found a place a to stop.
I no longer hold to a strict seperatist view or I couldn't be here! (jk)
Prophecy - Pre mill to partial preterist
Views - went from seeing an angry God ready to play a divine game of "whack a sinner" even if your saved you can go to hell (IFB upbringing) . To a loving God that provided me a way to complete forgiveness through Christ. Basically coming to know love.
Doctrine - My view of original sin has changed. Still ongoing research.
Views - went from seeing an angry God ready to play a divine game of "whack a sinner" even if your saved you can go to hell (IFB upbringing) . To a loving God that provided me a way to complete forgiveness through Christ. Basically coming to know love.
Doctrine - My view of original sin has changed. Still ongoing research.
Since I have been a Christian only fifteen months, I haven't changed as much as the rest of you.
I am sort of happy to find that many of you "changed" to the beliefs that I learned. Perhaps I have learned some real truths in my fifteen months!
I am curious, and I am honest with this - I enjoy listening to Joyce Meyer preach. When able and the time permits, I will watch her on the TV.
So far, I have found nothing that she said to be wrong as I understand it - except that she is a woman.
Would someone share the truth of this with me? I have seen the verses about women being silent in church, but I have not grasped the who truth in this. She seems to me to be an instrument of God.
Remember, I am still a child in my walk, please.
I am sort of happy to find that many of you "changed" to the beliefs that I learned. Perhaps I have learned some real truths in my fifteen months!
I am curious, and I am honest with this - I enjoy listening to Joyce Meyer preach. When able and the time permits, I will watch her on the TV.
So far, I have found nothing that she said to be wrong as I understand it - except that she is a woman.
Would someone share the truth of this with me? I have seen the verses about women being silent in church, but I have not grasped the who truth in this. She seems to me to be an instrument of God.
Remember, I am still a child in my walk, please.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Brother,
She is of the word-faith persuasion.
She espouses the doctrines of Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn. Name it and claim it, Gospel is gain.
Take a look here:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html#jmeyer
Just google her. Self discovery is the best teacher and I feel that if you take a look around you'll discover and uncover her false teaching.
SR,
I'm sure many have changed their views on women preachers. So we do not hijack my OP, I have started a new thread for this issue ( which has been brought many times before) Click on WOMEN PREACHERS and I'm sure you will get an earful:smilewinkgrin:
Salty
PS, thanks for all who have posted, it has been very interesting.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I think he meant to concentrate on whether her doctrine is biblical, or not, not on her gender, or women preachers in general.
Possibly - but so we don't get side-railed anymore-thats why I started the new thread, and now back to our regularly scheduled of what doctrines we personally believe have changed.....
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I have changed my mind on occasion because the clear teaching of God's Word has led me change it.What Bible doctrines have you changed your views on over the years?
Deacons: I now believe deacons were never intended to be leaders within the church (though leaders best develop among those with ministries); Women, therefore, may serve as deacons (but not elders). I believe I Tim. 3 supports this view.
Elders: I now believe a plurality of elders make up the leadership of the church, of which the Pastor is first among equals.
Death Penalty: I believe Christians should not support the death penalty as it is contrary to the teachings of Christ, specifically found in I Tim. 1:16.
Still working it out.... several I am still attempting to work out. For example, is an "evangelist" an office of the local church? Can women be "evangelists" (I am tending toward "no" because of the teaching aspect)?
Good question, Salty
peace to you
raying:
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Aaron, my brother, you have had quite the journey.