I have changed my view on these doctrines:

[Havensdad]

As to #3: Why were animals created as carnivores before the fall? Why do lions have fangs and claws? To eat plants? Why do raptors have claws and beaks? What did sharks eat with their jagged teeth prior to the fall?

This is a common mistake made by those not well versed in biology. there are literally thousands of varieties of herbivores, with those same sharp "Fangs and claws," that do not use them for meat, but tough skinned fruits, plants, etc. The same claws that are useful for ripping flesh, are equally useful stripping bark from trees and digging burrows (as Grizzlies and Pandas show us). The same teeth useful for ripping flesh, are useful for ripping into tough fruits and vegetables (try eating an apple with your blunt "herbivore teeth" on the sides of your mouth sometime, without first cutting it up. Its impossible. You need sharp, piercing teeth, as our friend the fruit bat demonstrates).

So, frankly, this whole idea is just ridiculous.

For an interesting read..

http://www.icr.org/article/predation-did-not-come-from-evolution/

 

[nodak]

I've gone from yec to gap theory based on the Bible. That it fits better with science was something I did not learn til long after I switched. I believe it fits the BIBLE better.

From comp to egal to modified comp. There are general rules for the family and society and the church. However, as Jesus said, for the hardness of hearts those rules are sometimes set aside. An example would be a wife leaving a man who attacks their children or molests them. Another example would be a woman stepping up to start a church in a place no man will come. Generally men should do that, but if they won't, women can.

From contemporary music in the church to traditional.

From Arminian to Calvinist to Biblicist. The Bible shows both God's total sovereignty and man's absolute requirement to choose.

May be more, but that is what comes to mind right now.

 

[Havensdad]

I've gone from yec to gap theory based on the Bible. That it fits better with science was something I did not learn til long after I switched. I believe it fits the BIBLE better.

Your telling me you grew up without going to public school, without watching television or reading books, with no outside influence whatsoever? Even Dr. Sues has evolutionary long age garbage in it. Unless you grew up under a rock, you have been bombarded with old age teaching since your birth, just like the rest of us.

Second, how does a long age of billions of years, including the rise and fall of species, Pre Adamic races of humans, and the like fit the Bible "Better" than just taking it for what it says, that "God made the earth and heavens in six days?"

 

[nodak]

Havensdad, your tone is offensive.

I did not say I grew up without being exposed to old earth thinking. I grew up in the oilfield and was exposed daily to discussions of geological time.

BUT I was also taught at the local Baptist church to reject that thinking, and reject it I did. It wasn't until I was old enough to really study the Bible that I started thinking some things didn't square with the Bible.

I wondered what Adam and Eve would have comprehended about death had there been no animal death before the fall. I wondered why no one believed the statements in the Bible concerning the fall of the angels.

It was studying those things Biblically that made me a sort of crude gap theorist even though at that point I had never heard of the gap theory. Later as an adult I did enounter the gap theory and studied it deeply. In it, and only in it, did I find the full teachings of the Bible concerning creation.

Obviously you have not studied the gap theory well. I do believe, as you do, in a literal 6 day creation of this creation. I accept the Biblical record of a creation before this one.

And those billions of years and all those critters brought up in oilfield core samples belong to that previous creation.

I also believe the KJV gets it right: humans were to REplenish the earth, not fill it.

So you see, from my point of view you who are still yec are the ones who do not simply accept a literal reading of the Bible.

But my Baptist belief in soul competency means I will discuss the issue of creation with you while respecting your right to differ.

 

[drfuss]

From Wesleyan Arminian (lose slavation) to Classic Arminian (Forfeit salvation)

From Pri-trib. to Pan trib. (who knows and not important)

From requried tithing to freewill offerings.

 

[InTheLight]

This is a common mistake made by those not well versed in biology. there are literally thousands of varieties of herbivores, with those same sharp "Fangs and claws," that do not use them for meat, but tough skinned fruits, plants, etc. You need sharp, piercing teeth, as our friend the fruit bat demonstrates.

Since there are literally thousands could you list some more? Are the curved beaks of eagles made to eat fruit or shred flesh?

What fruit or plants did sharks eat prior to the fall?

Why did Adam (presumably) give carnivore names to the animals? If you look up the Hebrew root words for lion, eagle, and others, they are clearly based on carnivore activity.

 

[InTheLight]

The reason is because the bible says that through one man sin entered the world and death by sin. The whole earth was cursed.

Sin was committed by man, death was spread to men. Animals aren't sinners. God doesn't judge animals.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.


Where does it say the whole creation was cursed?

At the time of the fall God cursed the serpent (crawl on belly, eat dust), Adam (difficulty farming), and Eve (painful childbirth). There is no mention of animals or anything else in nature being cursed in Genesis.

This comes from the fact that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. How do you think Adam learned that he had to offer a living sacrifice to God?

Where in the Bible is it recorded that Adam gave a sacrifice to God?

 

[Amy.G]

Sin was committed by man, death was spread to men. Animals aren't sinners. God doesn't judge animals.
snip
Where does it say the whole creation was cursed?

Everything dies.

Where in the Bible is it recorded that Adam gave a sacrifice to God?

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Am I wrong to assume Adam's children learned about the sacrifice from their father who learned it from God?

 

[quantumfaith]

Since there are literally thousands could you list some more? Are the curved beaks of eagles made to eat fruit or shred flesh?

What fruit or plants did sharks eat prior to the fall?

Why did Adam (presumably) give carnivore names to the animals? If you look up the Hebrew root words for lion, eagle, and others, they are clearly based on carnivore activity.

When did the dinosaurs exist? With (at the same time) as man? (I dont think so). Dembski has an interesting theodicy for those who have a problem with death prior to the fall of mankind. His theory basically is that the consequences of the fall came upon creation, prior in chronological time to the fall. Interesting, but does not necessarily answer enough for me personally. I, obviously believe in an old earth and that predation existed millions of years prior to the "neshama" of mankind.

 

[quantumfaith]

Havensdad, your tone is offensive.

I did not say I grew up without being exposed to old earth thinking. I grew up in the oilfield and was exposed daily to discussions of geological time.

BUT I was also taught at the local Baptist church to reject that thinking, and reject it I did. It wasn't until I was old enough to really study the Bible that I started thinking some things didn't square with the Bible.

I wondered what Adam and Eve would have comprehended about death had there been no animal death before the fall. I wondered why no one believed the statements in the Bible concerning the fall of the angels.

It was studying those things Biblically that made me a sort of crude gap theorist even though at that point I had never heard of the gap theory. Later as an adult I did enounter the gap theory and studied it deeply. In it, and only in it, did I find the full teachings of the Bible concerning creation.

Obviously you have not studied the gap theory well. I do believe, as you do, in a literal 6 day creation of this creation. I accept the Biblical record of a creation before this one.

And those billions of years and all those critters brought up in oilfield core samples belong to that previous creation.

I also believe the KJV gets it right: humans were to REplenish the earth, not fill it.

So you see, from my point of view you who are still yec are the ones who do not simply accept a literal reading of the Bible.

But my Baptist belief in soul competency means I will discuss the issue of creation with you while respecting your right to differ.

Thank you brother so much for such a mature attitude and position.

 

[InTheLight]

Everything dies.

So are you saying that because something dies it is cursed? Or that dying is not a good thing?

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Am I wrong to assume Adam's children learned about the sacrifice from their father who learned it from God?

Neither right nor wrong. The Bible doesn't say, so we shouldn't make assumptions.

 

[glfredrick]

So are you saying that because something dies it is cursed? Or that dying is not a good thing?

Neither right nor wrong. The Bible doesn't say, so we shouldn't make assumptions.

Not to butt in here, but God never intended that we die...

 

[quantumfaith]

Not to butt in here, but God never intended that we die...

Not convinced about that GL (go figure huh?). The "tree of life" in the garden seemed to be the means of indefinite physical existence, which we know was removed from mankind's access as a result of the fall. To me this suggests that "eternal" physical existence may not have been part of the design from the beginning. Also, several of your theological colleagues (those who hold to complete determininsm) might also feel different.

 

[Ron Wood]

Not convinced about that GL (go figure huh?). The "tree of life" in the garden seemed to be the means of indefinite physical existence, which we know was removed from mankind's access as a result of the fall. To me this suggests that "eternal" physical existence may not have been part of the design from the beginning. Also, several of your theological colleagues (those who hold to complete determininsm) might also feel different.

Just as a side note to give a little food for thought notice how God phrases His commandment to Adam to not eat of the tree. It is as if He is saying when you do not if you do.

 

[glfredrick]

Not convinced about that GL (go figure huh?). The "tree of life" in the garden seemed to be the means of indefinite physical existence, which we know was removed from mankind's access as a result of the fall. To me this suggests that "eternal" physical existence may not have been part of the design from the beginning. Also, several of your theological colleagues (those who hold to complete determininsm) might also feel different.

I am just as far apart from those who hold to complete determinism as I am from those who hold to man-centered Pelagianism. Both are wrong -- and not because I think so or say so -- but because the Word of God says so.

We can argue "logically" on either side of the continuum of soteriological doctrine and end up in a place that goes far beyond Scripture. That, in fact, is what most are doing here on this board. If one is Reformed, they MUST have a deterministic God. If one is Arminian, they must be Pelagian. The correct answer is, "no" they are Reformed and stop where the Bible stops or they are Arminian and stop where the Bible stops and each MUST deal with the entirety of Scripture, not setting it against itself, for God is not divided.

Question... Do those who die in their sin live forever just like those who die "in Christ?" Is there another death besides the death that we suffer here in this "pre-life" before eternity?

 

[InTheLight]

Not to butt in here, but God never intended that we die...

Chapter and verse?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I have given an open ear to and even experimented with most principle doctrines of the various denominations of what the world calls christianity, even Roman Catholicism. I have also given an open ear to the agnostic and atheistic points of view.

I have weighed and measured as much as I found worthy of a serious look and have found that I believe the bible and that the bible solidly supports the southern baptist doctrines and upbringing my grandpa gave me.

I support the baptist faith and message.

So, I guess you can say I came back to where I should have started. However, I think I am more calvinistic than my grandpa. I wish I could talk to him and find out. I see that my journey has probably given me experiences to draw from that I wouldn't have had otherwise but I regret it and wish I would have just been faithful to what I was taught as a child instead of being so hard headed.

I feel a mountain of guilt about it.

 

[jbh28]

Chapter and verse?

It was part of the curse that death came. Romans 5:12, Genesis 2:17


As far as the OP, I don't know how much "change" per se that I have. I grew up with more of a free will concept. That more because that is what I was told than serious study of the Scriptures. After study of the Scripture, I went to more on the sovereignty of God. Pretty much everything else is about the same.

 

[InTheLight]

It was part of the curse that death came. Romans 5:12, Genesis 2:17

What curse? Romans 5:12 is a factual statement--"through one man sin entered the world and death by sin". Nothing about a curse.

Now there were specific curses handed down by God at the Fall. At the time of the fall God cursed the serpent (crawl on belly, eat dust), Adam (difficulty farming), and Eve (painful childbirth).

 

[J.D.]

From IFB to Reformed.
From dispensational to amil/partial preterist (taking a hard look at postmil)
From trying to burn heretics (as I defined heretics) to trying to obey the Lord's command to love one another.
From a know-it-all to a real education (knowing I know nothing).
From KJV Only to Byzantine family of texts.
From Assertive-Pastor leadership to confessional/plurality of elders leadership.
From soft cessationist to hard cessationist.