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Degree- worth the paper?

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Luke2427

Active Member
In a previous thread Amy made the following observation:

Originally Posted by Amy.G View Post
Changed my mind. I am going to respond to this.

Exactly what does that suggest to you?

The laity is too stupid to understand God's word? Only "scholars" and "professors" have to ability to interpret God's word correctly?


This is the perfect example of arrogance. And worse, it is directed towards the brethren.


It reminds me of the Catholic church, who decided the Word of God did not belong in the hands of the common man. I am thankful for men like Tynedale who died to put the Word in the hands of stupid people like me.


It should be noted that havensdad never said that laymen could not understand the Word of God. He, I am certain, does not believe that as I am sure NO ONE on here does. He was mischaracterized in the above words.

But he stated that it is striking that those who are most educated tend to be Calvinistic. Now I don't know if that is in and of itself true. I think it is probably accurate seeing that Presbyterian pastors usually have to have at least a seminary degree and that the largest Southern Baptist Seminary, which is also the largest on earth at times, is thoroughly Calvinistic. But that is for another thread.

What this thread is about is this- Is it arrogant to say that people who are thoroughly theologically trained and educated tend to have a stronger grasp on the Scriptures than those who have no formal training whatsoever in this matter?

Is it not also arrogance for laity to assume that they can go to the Bible and dig out as much or more than those who have dedicated a decade of their lives in universities specializing in the study of the Scriptures?

Is it not the epitome of arrogance to not do the work that others have done and then claim that you are at least as able as they are?

A laymen can go to the Bible and get all he needs.

A scholar can go and get more by way of historical grammatical exposition.

If this is not true then why do we have seminaries?

Isn't it arrogant for a person who has little more than a Sunday School education to act as if he knows at least as much about the Bible as one who has painstakingly and at great expense dedicated his LIFE to the study of it?
 

matt wade

Well-Known Member
Isn't it arrogant for a person who has little more than a Sunday School education to act as if he knows at least as much about the Bible as one who has painstakingly and at great expense dedicated his LIFE to the study of it?

I think it is arrogant to believe that a person must attend a university or seminary to dedicate their life to the study of God's Word. Your statement seems to infer that unless one attends a "place of higher learning" that they are unable to study the Bible beyond a Sunday School level. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but it reads that way to me.
 

Winman

Active Member
What this tread is about is this- Is it arrogant to say that people who are thoroughly theologically trained and educated tend to have a stronger grasp on the Scriptures than those who have no formal training whatsoever in this matter?

It depends. If you go to a Catholic seminary you will have a thorough education in error. You will understand the scriptures not for what they say, but for what you are taught.

Education can be both good and bad. In the 1930's the German people were the most literate and educated people on earth. Why did Germans embrace Hitler's theories of race and superiority? Because the Germans were thoroughly indoctrinated in the theory of evolution. They were taught that some people were more advanced than others, and the "survival of the fittest". They were taught that it is right for a superior race to eliminate an inferior race so that mankind would be advanced.

That is why it was easy for them to send millions into the gas chambers and ovens.

Being educated does not mean a person can think critically.
 
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exscentric

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Seems to me over the years I've seen both types look down their noses at the other but thankfully there are many in between that realize God leads/teaches believers in different ways for different purposes and seems to assure each one knows what they need to know for His purpose.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I think it is arrogant to believe that a person must attend a university or seminary to dedicate their life to the study of God's Word. Your statement seems to infer that unless one attends a "place of higher learning" that they are unable to study the Bible beyond a Sunday School level. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but it reads that way to me.

That is not what I mean. I think all born again Christians devote their lives to the study of the Word of God.

But those who go the extra mile and at great expense painstakingly devote years of their lives to NOTHING but the study of the Scriptures- spending thousands of dollars and thousands of hours with their tired faces buried in theological and linguistic books and their ears tuned to brilliant professors and their hearts fixed on little more than being proficient at ministering for Christ in this world- I am saying that it is not arrogant to say that those folks have a leg up on laymen who live the most of their lives in the secular world.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
It depends. If you go to a Catholic seminary you will have a thorough education in error. You will understand the scriptures not for what they say, but for what you are taught.

Education can be both good and bad. In the 1930's the German people were the most literate and educated people on earth. Why did Germans embrace Hitler's theories of race and superiority? Because the Germans were thoroughly indoctrinated in the theory of evolution. They were taught that some people were more advanced than others, and the "survival of the fittest". They were taught that it is right for a superior race to eliminate an inferior race so that mankind would be advanced.

That is why it was easy for them to send millions into the gas chambers and ovens.

Being educated does not mean a person can think critically.

This thread is about good education being a great advantage in the understanding of the Scriptures.
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
An education is just that. It provides tools of study. You observe information and make decisions on its truth. You decide what that piece of paper means to you. Far too many place far too much imporance on a piece of paper.

You will express your education as soon as you opwen your mouth. Perhaps we should learn to shut up.

Cheers,

Jim

There was a laddie in college named Breeze,
Weighed down with Ba's and Bd's,
Said the doctor, "It's plain,"
"You're killing yourself by degrees."
 

John Toppass

Active Member
Site Supporter
It is definitely arrogant to think that Holy Spirit will guide one person more than another when they earnestly seek God's Word and Will. The level of education does not make one more worthy than another. Just as age does not necessarily make one smarter than one who is younger (tho that trend sometimes does not seem to hold here).

The guidance of the Holy Spirit trumps all levels of education! This is spoken with authority!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
It is definitely arrogant to think that Holy Spirit will guide one person more than another when they earnestly seek God's Word and Will. The level of education does not make one more worthy than another. Just as age does not necessarily make one smarter than one who is younger (tho that trend sometimes does not seem to hold here).

The guidance of the Holy Spirit trumps all levels of education! This is spoken with authority!

Are those who dedicate thousands of hours and many thousands more dollars to becoming proficient at the study and ministry of the Word of God doomed to be void of the Holy Spirit?

Are only those who do not make such investments in the Kingdom privileged to be filled with Spirit?


Should we not then close Seminaries if they do not give their students advantages in ministry work?

Shouldn't we take those billions of dollars poured into those seminaries and build prayer chapels where young men are told to go and pray until they get filled with the Spirit and never burden themselves with the study of linguistics and theology and Church History?

Are the thousands of young men in Protestant Seminaries wasting their time and tears and treasures and talents in such places since all they really need is to get the Holy Ghost?

Or do you suppose that God might have called those people to those places and fill many of them to the brim with the Holy Spirit for dedicating their lives so completely to the study of His Word?
 
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Winman

Active Member
This thread is about good education being a great advantage in the understanding of the Scriptures.

What you consider a good education I would probably consider indoctrination in error.

If you are being taught error, then education is not a great advantage, it is a great detriment.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
What you consider a good education I would probably consider indoctrination in error.

If you are being taught error, then education is not a great advantage, it is a great detriment.

That's a shame. I am attending Liberty University which is no Calvinistic institution.

Where did you go?
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
Even errors can teach! Again, it is the student who must learn, and error oftens opens truth.

Cheers,

Jim
 

John Toppass

Active Member
Site Supporter
Are those who dedicate thousands of hours and many thousands more dollars to becoming proficient at the study and ministry of the Word of God doomed to be void of the Holy Spirit?

Are only those who do not make such investments in the Kingdom privileged to be filled with Spirit?


Should we not then close Seminaries if they do not give their students advantages in ministry work?

Shouldn't we take those billions of dollars poured into those seminaries and build prayer chapels where young men are told to go and pray until they get filled with the Spirit and never burden themselves with the study of linguistics and theology and Church History?

Are the thousands of young men in Protestant Seminaries wasting their time and tears and treasures and talents in such places since all they really need is to get the Holy Ghost?

Or do you suppose that God might have called those people to those places and fill many of them to the brim with the Holy Spirit for dedicating their lives so completely to the study of His Word?

Maybe if you read slowly what I wrote, you will see that nothing you have responded to was even said in my post.
 

Winman

Active Member
That's a shame. I am attending Liberty University which is no Calvinistic institution.

Where did you go?

I attended North Florida University many years ago. I primarily studied contract law. I was a good student and made excellent grades, but I have probably forgotten most of what I learned.

But back to the subject, I have seen on other threads where you hold to doctrine even when you have clearly been shown numerous scriptures that refute your view. Why do you hold to your view? Because you have been indoctrinated.

It is a known fact that the higher an education a person has, the higher probability of that person being an athiest. I am not saying anything like that about you, I am just pointing out that higher education often indoctrinates people in falsehood.

Try to tell a person who has been indoctinated in evolution about the creation account. Their mind is so blinded by error that they cannot understand you.

I am not putting education down, education is very good in many areas. An educated person tends to earn more and will enjoy a better standard of living. But there is also much error taught that is difficult to shake.

You know, the old devil has used education from the beginning. Didn't he tempt Eve that she would gain knowledge if she ate the forbidden fruit?

2 Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


The old devil takes lots of folks in the snare of education. And it is a snare, once you have been taught to think in a certain way, many have great difficulty in escaping it.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here is an article that speaks to why some refuse to read and learn what the church has historically believed.....so they repeat errors of the past because they choose to.......remain in ignorance......[not meant to be arrogant,or abrasive, just descriptive as in 2 Pet 3;]
5For this they willingly are ignorant of

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing

Ignorance Is Bliss
A Concentrated Effort To Avoid Guilt

by Dennis Reed



August 20, 2001

"Please don't send me anything controversial!" "I don¹t want to read any papers put out by brethren!" "If I want anything from you, I will ask for it!" "Remove me from your email list!" "Send me only things that are uplifting!" "I don't want to hear anything about that!" "Delete before reading!" "You don't want to attend there - those are not your kind of people!" "We can never have perfect understanding!" "Take me off your mailing list!" "That preacher is a troublemaker, you don't want to go hear him!" And on and on... as the list seems to grow longer every day! Sadly to say, we are being told more clearly every day that "My mind is made up, please don¹t confuse me with the facts!" And the saddest and most frightening part of all is that such statements and attitudes are being openly expressed by our own brethren!

The subtle arrogance of the apostasy now affecting the church is that more and more brethren are being convinced that "ignorance is bliss." And if you are ignorant of what is involved in any issue, then you don¹t have to worry about any guilt on the part of your conscience! We are absolutely so inundated with "y'all be sweet" preaching in churches today that brethren are being convinced that they can do just about whatever they like without any guilt or pangs of conscience whatsoever! And so many of our brethren have long ago quit studying and teaching the Word of God in their personal lives that they are almost totally dependent upon what they hear in the services of the church for their spiritual edification! And when the leadership and preaching in the church is simply the providing of "what makes you feel good" and what will entertain you for a few minutes while you are in attendance, then it is not at all difficult for us to see why so very little spiritual maturation is taking place! The often heard cry that "it doesn¹t really matter" and "we don't want to hear anything controversial" is clear evidence that there is tremendous fear on the part of many brethren about anyone providing information which might give them knowledge, and then that knowledge might bring on guilt about what they are believing or practicing! So, the best way to avoid guilt is to be void of knowledge! So, the best way to avoid having to make a decision whether something is right or wrong is to simply stay ignorant of that issue! It is becoming more obvious every day that the "ignorance is bliss" philosophy is nothing more than a concentrated effort to avoid guilt! It is a concentrated effort to avoid having to take a stand on sinful doctrines and practices which are carrying the church down the road of digression at a speed which is truly appalling to God fearing and Truth respecting brethren!

Wouldn¹t it be wise for us to look at what the Word of God has to say on the subject of ignorance? The apostle reminds us of the condition of Israel in Romans 10:1-3, "Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." When one has a knowledge deficit, his ignorance takes a firm hold on his life and he moves farther and farther away from any subjection to the righteousness of God.

As an old timer who has spent almost fifty years attempting to preach the gospel, I am persuaded that we have the greatest deficit of Bible knowledge today that we have ever had during my lifetime. We have reared generation after generation who have become less and less interested in spiritual matters over the passing of time. The attitude today seems to be that we need as little preaching as possible, and what preaching we "must" have - let's get it over with as quickly as possible! Having people interested in gospel meetings is rapidly becoming a thing of the past! Having regular home Bible study is almost a forgotten concept! What our forefathers called preaching - "shelling the corn all the way down to the cob" is as scarce as hen's teeth! Preaching which openly names and condemns evil practices is quickly passing from the scene. Exposing false doctrines and false teachers among our own brethren is being more and more looked upon with disdain! It is becoming more obvious every day that brethren are less and less interested in knowledge - because knowledge brings with it a sense of guilt for our failures and shortcomings. Knowledge makes us choose between evil and good. Knowledge makes us aware of God's condemnation of sin in our lives. It seems that the general attitude we are moving toward is to embrace the "remain ignorant and stay happy" philosophy of life!

Spiritual growth is the result of a genuine effort on our part to secure knowledge and to use that knowledge in making application of its principles in our own life and being busy in teaching that Truth to others. When we willfully choose to remain in ignorance, then we make ourselves not only useless to God but also tremendously dangerous to ourselves and to others! Please note the thoughts of I Corinthians 3:1-3, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able; for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men? When we choose ignorance because we want to be able to live free from guilt, we are clearly showing that we have no interest in the righteousness of God. When we are willfully ignorant, we magnify both our lack of faith and our selfish desires to engage in sin without feeling any sense of remorse, shame, or guilt!

The Word of God demands spiritual growth! God demands that we be able to discern between good and evil, "For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil." (Hebrews 5:12-14).

Yes, the "ignorance is bliss" attitude is infecting our brethren like an epidemic and it is without question a concentrated effort to avoid the guilt and pangs of conscience which the knowledge of God would bring! It is an "agenda of deception" on the part of those who are advocating the soul damning error called "unity in diversity!" If a lot of folks don't wake up real soon, then it will be very possible that the Lord's church is going to become a wasteland of false teaching and sinful practices! It is high time that we stand up and be counted as faithful soldiers in the battle against these forces of Satan!

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:31-39).

Dennis L. Reed
13311 Lake George Place
Tampa, Florida 33618
 

Winman

Active Member
Here is an article that speaks to why some refuse to read and learn what the church has historically believed.....so they repeat errors of the past because they choose to.......remain in ignorance......[not meant to be arrogant,or abrasive, just descriptive as in 2 Pet 3;]
5For this they willingly are ignorant of

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing

Your post reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld.

Marlene- I can't be with someone if I don't respect what they do.

Jerry- You're a cashier!
 

Amy.G

New Member
Luke, it doesn't matter how educated a person is if God has not chosen them for ministry. You should understand that since you claim you understand the sovereignty of God.

God will choose who He wants to educate the laity regardless of their "formal" education. He can even choose a fisherman or tax collector.
 

preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not in the other thread so I'll confine my comments to the questions asked.

What this thread is about is this- Is it arrogant to say that people who are thoroughly theologically trained and educated tend to have a stronger grasp on the Scriptures than those who have no formal training whatsoever in this matter?

I'd say it is always an advantage to have more education. That said it is a misnomer to believe that a degree automatically equals knowledge.

Too many times I've seen a fresh guy out of seminar with a crisp new MDiv get shredded by a lifelong learner who is a deacon, Sunday School teacher, or layperson.

As someone with a PhD in theology I'll let you in on a secret, we're (Western educational systems) giving out tons of degrees to fairly uninformed people every year.

That said when it comes to the higher level hermenuetical, theological issues we should go to the more informed scholars before the average joe in the pews. Honestly, how many lay people have a grasp of Paul's utilization of Hillel's rules of biblical interpretation in the pastoral epistles?

Yet when Augustine talks about scholarly versus lay interpretation the final test of it is application. How is your life different because of the text? I know a lot of biblical scholars who are pretty immoral people.

Luke2427 said:
Is it not also arrogance for laity to assume that they can go to the Bible and dig out as much or more than those who have dedicated a decade of their lives in universities specializing in the study of the Scriptures?

There's enough low-low cost, or free, information out there to get a complete seminary plus education for the informed and motivated person. Heck, I can rattle off on my fingers 10 places to go to get started.

That said I think you're making the issues too extreme. There are levels of conversation when it comes to interpreting the biblical text. Most lay Christians can hit the initial level: understanding basic principles of exegesis. A few can get to a middle level: some more complicated issues (i.e. stuff detailed in a text like Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, this includes a lot of pastors. Yet usually only scholars and a smaller percentage of professional clergy get to the high level.

The reality is that is okay. Most, the vast majority, of theological issues and textual issues that mean anything to the Christian life are within the first two levels.

I mean how truly beneficial is a Sunday School lesson on the development of the tetagrammaton in early Ugaritic? It's important but not terrifically useful.

Luke2427[B said:
A laymen can go to the Bible and get all he needs.[/B]

I disagree with this completely.

Luke2427 said:
Isn't it arrogant for a person who has little more than a Sunday School education to act as if he knows at least as much about the Bible as one who has painstakingly and at great expense dedicated his LIFE to the study of it?

It isn't arrogant as much as it is misinformed. Usually all you need to do is sit the Sunday school guy in the same room as the scholar and you'll see the difference by the end of the first sentence. That said most scholars are very gracious people who honor the commitment and heart of laity to lay off a bit.

Doesn't mean the lay person can't read the Bible and be edified by it.
 
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Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke,
You have a tendency through this thread to add the words, "and many thousands more dollars." I'm wondering why the layout of money is so important to you.

Would you say that the individual who spent many hours studying the bible, but never attended any university or institution of higher learning, has any "lesser" biblical knowledge than someone who spent thousands of hours and many thousands more dollars?

It's like that one kid in class that really irks you. You study your heart out, and barely squeak out a B. Meanwhile, you know for a fact that he never studies, but breezes through the class with an A. It ain't fair that you put in so much time and effort to be a fair-to-middling knowledgeable person on the subject; while he seems to put in so little effort, and is the recognized expert. It ain't fair, but it happens, because God gives us different talents and gifts and abilities.
 
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