Degree- worth the paper?

[Luke2427]

Luke,
You have a tendency through this thread to add the words, "and many thousands more dollars." I'm wondering why the layout of money is so important to you.

Where your treasure is there will your heart be also.

Would you say that the individual who spent many hours studying the bible, but never attended any university or institution of higher learning, has any "lesser" biblical knowledge than someone who spent thousands of hours and many thousands more dollars?

Yes. There is no way a person who has not learned Greek and Hebrew and written a couple of theses on theological research and passed a hundred rigorous theological exams and sat under some of the most brilliant living Bible scholars on earth can know as much about the Bible as one who has done these things.

It's like that one kid in class that really irks you. You study your heart out, and barely squeak out a B. Meanwhile, you know for a fact that he never studies, but breezes through the class with an A. It ain't fair that you put in so much time and effort to be a fair-to-middling knowledgeable person on the subject; while he seems to put in so little effort, and is the recognized expert. It ain't fair, but it happens, because God gives us different talents and gifts and abilities.

I tended to be one of those kids so I happily agree. But usually even that kid recognizes the need for higher education and invests thousands of dollars and thousands of hours and sweat and stress and tears in that education.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, it doesn't matter how educated a person is if God has not chosen them for ministry. You should understand that since you claim you understand the sovereignty of God.

Who said anything about God NOT calling someone?

God will choose who He wants to educate the laity regardless of their "formal" education. He can even choose a fisherman or tax collector.

Or a physician like Luke or a premiere theologian like Paul or a genius like Origen and Augustine and Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin and the list goes on and on.

Amy, in your view what is the point of having seminaries?

 

[Don]

Where your treasure is there will your heart be also.



Yes. There is no way a person who has not learned Greek and Hebrew and written a couple of theses on theological research and passed a hundred rigorous theological exams and sat under some of the most brilliant living Bible scholars on earth can know as much about the Bible as one who has done these things.




I tended to be one of those kids so I happily agree. But usually even that kid recognizes the need for higher education and invests thousands of dollars and thousands of hours and sweat and stress and tears in that education.

For someone who has spent so much time and money, one would think you'd know that "arrogance" and "pride" are not considered Christian traits.

 

[Luke2427]

For someone who has spent so much time and money, one would think you'd know that "arrogance" and "pride" are not considered Christian traits.

I don't think that. Arrogance is what I am arguing against.

I think arrogance is NOT DOING the work and claiming equality with the one's who have done the work.

There are prodigies along life's way who are geniuses without formal training- but they are by far the exceptions and not the rules.

For the average layman to say- "Jonathan Edwards is no more biblically savvy than me"- that is arrogance.

 

[convicted1]

Worth it?

Here is a quick story about something that happened to me a few months back. I had began studying the passage of Hosea and Gomer several months back. There was one thing that I thought really stuck out, and I couldn't get a grasp of it's significance(sp?). It was the part where Hosea bought Gomer back for 15 pieces of silver and 1.5 homers of barley. The 1.5 homers of barley really had me puzzled and I wanted to know what it had to do with the story(I am one who tries to get the "spiritual meanings" from the bible). I knew that there was more to it than that. Back during the summer, a friend of mine was preaching one night, and lo and behold, he preached on Hosea and Gomer. He then stated that he had heard another preacher state that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver. When he stated that, I wanted to jump through the roof!! God had just showed me what I was looking and asking for!! The 1.5 homers of barley and 15 pieces of silver were worth 30 pieces of silver!

The moral of this story is this: If you earnestly seek God's wisdom, and ask for it in a meek and humble way, He will give it to you directly, or by others means, such as through a sermon.

One more thing, and this is not a slam to those on here who hold doctorates, MDiv, or any other degree: The pupil is only as smart*in most cases* as the teacher. That teacher was only as smart*in most cases* the teacher that taught him, and he was only as smart*in most cases* as the teacher that taught him, and so on, and so on.........

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

An education is just that. It provides tools of study. You observe information and make decisions on its truth. You decide what that piece of paper means to you. Far too many place far too much imporance on a piece of paper.

I agree Brother Jim. It is also true that far too many people put too LITTLE emphasis on that piece of paper and think that they are just a smart having not done the work as those who have that piece of paper.

I agree with you that education is about providing tools for study. And tools are extremely important things, aren't they?

It is far easier to dig a five mile trench with a backhoe than it is with one's bare hands.

You will express your education as soon as you opwen your mouth. Perhaps we should learn to shut up.

Absolutely. And it is also true that many who can lead us right because of their knowledge that they received via torturous labor and grossly expensive investment should open their mouths rather than keeping them shut.

Some who have no education should shut up.

It works both ways.

There was a laddie in college named Breeze,
Weighed down with Ba's and Bd's,
Said the doctor, "It's plain,"
"You're killing yourself by degrees.

And...

There was a young punk named Tat
Whose mind was blind as a bat
"I'm smarter'n any egg head," he said
But was to them no more than a gnat!

Don't be too harsh on me- I wrote that in two minutes!!:type::smilewinkgrin:

 

[Luke2427]

Here is a quick story about something that happened to me a few months back. I had began studying the passage of Hosea and Gomer several months back. There was one thing that I thought really stuck out, and I couldn't get a grasp of it's significance(sp?). It was the part where Hosea bought Gomer back for 15 pieces of silver and 1.5 homers of barley. The 1.5 homers of barley really had me puzzled and I wanted to know what it had to do with the story(I am one who tries to get the "spiritual meanings" from the bible). I knew that there was more to it than that. Back during the summer, a friend of mine was preaching one night, and lo and behold, he preached on Hosea and Gomer. He then stated that he had heard another preacher state that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver. When he stated that, I wanted to jump through the roof!! God had just showed me what I was looking and asking for!! The 1.5 homers of barley and 15 pieces of silver were worth 30 pieces of silver!

The moral of this story is this: If you earnestly seek God's wisdom, and ask for it in a meek and humble way, He will give it to you directly, or by others means, such as through a sermon.

One more thing, and this is not a slam to those on here who hold doctorates, MDiv, or any other degree: The pupil is only as smart*in most cases* as the teacher. That teacher was only as smart*in most cases* the teacher that taught him, and he was only as smart*in most cases* as the teacher that taught him, and so on, and so on.........

i am I am's!!

Willis

Where do you suppose that tid bit of info concerning how much a homer of barely was worth came from?

It came from someone with a powerful biblical education. That preacher might have dug it up in some commentary but the original source of that info came from someone with a tremendous education.

God gave you- a layman- a marvelous piece of info that blessed you abundantly via someone who had a degree.

Thank God for educated people who know more than we do! Thank God we can go to their commentaries and benefit from their superior knowledge!!

Amen?

 

[DHK]

William Carey had little if any formal training. He was a cobbler. He stood against the hyper-Calvinism of his time, and the churches that tried to dissuade him from being a missionary, from going overseas. And yet he went to India. Only a cobbler. He translated the Bible or portions thereof into 44 different languages. He had no seminary training.

 

[convicted1]

Bro Luke,

On the contrary. Around here where I live (western WVa-eastern Ky) most of those who preach, do so without the use of seminary. I am not bashing anyone who goes there, but that is not the sole requirement for someone being deemed a bible scholar.The preacher mine friend heard(he never gave his name(or if he did, I don't remember), was more than likely, an uneducated man, meaning no seminary. I understand what you mean by someone with a tremendous education, but some of them seem to think more of their seminary degree than their righteosness(rightstanding) with God.

God gave you- a layman- a marvelous piece of info that blessed you abundantly via someone who had a degree.

I have had many "unscholared" preachers that would make me want to jump through the roof! Salvation is about the message and not the messenger. One can make their point without the use of a MDiv. I am not against them, but when you use them as the measuring stick and not the Holy Ghost then you have erred greatly. I am not saying you have done this, but it seems that quite a few have.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation,being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.


Apostle Paul stated that preaching is by revelation of Jesus Christ only!!



1Cor. 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


Again, let me say that I am not bashing anyone who holds the MDiv's, but don't let that be the sole reason why someone is to be considered for a pastoring position.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

William Carey had little if any formal training. He was a cobbler. He stood against the hyper-Calvinism of his time, and the churches that tried to dissuade him from being a missionary, from going overseas. And yet he went to India. Only a cobbler. He translated the Bible or portions thereof into 44 different languages. He had no seminary training.

Church history is rife with these kinds of exceptions to the rule. But that is what they are- exceptions.

I wonder if William Carey leaned heavily upon scholars as he translated the Scriptures.

I think we know that he did.

Thank God then that William Carey had access to the wisdom of formally trained men!

Amen?

P. S. William Carey did indeed stand against hyper-calvinism as we all should. but he was a thorough Calvinist himself. Just wanted to make sure we all are on the same page.

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

On the contrary. Around here where I live (western WVa-eastern Ky) most of those who preach, do so without the use of seminary. I am not bashing anyone who goes there, but that is not the sole requirement for someone being deemed a bible scholar.The preacher mine friend heard(he never gave his name(or if he did, I don't remember), was more than likely, an uneducated man, meaning no seminary. I understand what you mean by someone with a tremendous education, but some of them seem to think more of their seminary degree than their righteosness(rightstanding) with God.



I have had many "unscholared" preachers that would make me want to jump through the roof! Salvation is about the message and not the messenger. One can make their point without the use of a MDiv. I am not against them, but when you use them as the measuring stick and not the Holy Ghost then you have erred greatly. I am not saying you have done this, but it seems that quite a few have.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation,being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.


Apostle Paul stated that preaching is by revelation of Jesus Christ only!!



1Cor. 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


Again, let me say that I am not bashing anyone who holds the MDiv's, but don't let that be the sole reason why someone is to be considered for a pastoring position.

i am I am's!!

Willis

You didn't answer my question, Bud. Where do you suppose that wonderful tid bit of info came from?

That pastor didn't receive the revelation that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver from an angel. He got it somewhere. He didn;t just know it himself. He wasn't born with the knowledge that in Bible days a homer of barley was worth ten pieces of silver.

He may ahve heard it at the mouth of another pastor who is not so bent against wisely utilizing the help of scholars.

But however he got it, it must have originally come from a person with formal training.

Therefore you can thank God for the one with the formal education who with that education was able to uncover that tid bit of info that so blessed your heart.

 

[DHK]

Church history is rife with these kinds of exceptions to the rule. But that is what they are- exceptions.

I wonder if William Carey leaned heavily upon scholars as he translated the Scriptures.

I think we know that he did.

Thank God then that William Carey had access to the wisdom of formally trained men!

Amen?

P. S. William Carey did indeed stand against hyper-calvinism as we all should. but he was a thorough Calvinist himself. Just wanted to make sure we all are on the same page.

What wisdom of formally trained men would he have to rely upon? When he went there, there were none.

When Adoniram Judson went to Burma he "broke" the Burmese language. No one had ever been able to put it into language form before.

 

[Luke2427]

What wisdom of formally trained men would he have to rely upon? When he went there, there were none.

Did he carry no books written by Scholars with him? Did he not utilize any scholarly work on linguistics as he translated the Scriptures?


To say that William Carey was not a well educated man is to misrepresent history, BTW.

Born a son of the Church of England in 1761, Carey took an early interest in his studies and excelled at languages, a gift that would serve him in his ministry.

He was appointed a professor at Fort Williams College, which had been founded to educate the children of civil servants.

he learned Italian, French, Dutch, and Hebrew, while increasing his mastery of Latin, a language he had taught himself as a youngster.

How do you suppose he learned those languages? He learned them from scholars who had formal training.

He was well educated.

It is said that long after he had attained to fame and eminence in India, being Professor of oriental languages in the college of Fort William, honoured with letters and medals from royal hands, and able to write F.L.S., F.G S., F.A.S., and other symbols of distinction after his name,

And he is called here in this article Dr. William Carey.
So what is your point then, exactly?

 

[DHK]

From your source:

During his years as a master cobbler, Carey’s interest in languages became a passionate avocation; he learned Italian, French, Dutch, and Hebrew, while increasing his mastery of Latin, a language he had taught himself as a youngster.

The point is that God is able to take a man who has almost no education, give him a gift wherein he is able to study and teach himself, educate himself without the aid of seminaries--as Carey did, to the point where he himself is able to be a missionary, teacher, establish a college for others, a university for others, and such a tremendous task as translating the Bible or portions thereof into 44 different languages.

For that Carey did not have formal training. He taught himself. In fact, history shows that many did the same thing. Spurgeon also had little formal training and yet was called the prince of preachers and established his own college.

People with little education, or no seminary education are able to go far beyond those that do have seminary education. Not all people are able to do this, but some are. It does depend how a person is able to apply themselves. In this day and age with the internet and so many other resources easily available to us, I see no reason why a person with a burning heart to serve the Lord cannot educate himself.

 

[Luke2427]

From your source:

The point is that God is able to take a man who has almost no education, give him a gift wherein he is able to study and teach himself, educate himself without the aid of seminaries--as Carey did, to the point where he himself is able to be a missionary, teacher, establish a college for others, a university for others, and such a tremendous task as translating the Bible or portions thereof into 44 different languages.

There are a few prodigies, as I have stated,- like Spurgeon- but it is noteworthy that Spurgeon educated himself by reading over a dozen books a week that ARE written by SCHOLARS.

And he was a genius. He was exceptional. This thread is not about "freaks of nature" but about the fact that seminary trained people tend to know a great deal more about the Bible than layman.

How you can argue with that is beyond me.

I am not sure you are arguing against it. I think maybe you have decided in your mind that I represent the "elitist" on here and that my opponents represent the "common man".

Perhaps that is why you are engaging me.

But it is abundantly clear to me and I think most folks that those who do the time and endure the torturous labor of 6 and 8 years of formal theological training certainly do know the Scriptures better than the average plumber and electrician and most every other layman.

And if a pastor even, who is not a genius, is even going to hope to get close to the seminary graduate in Bible knowledge, he is going to have to do what Spurgeon and William Carey did- he is going to have to bury his face in books written by those who DID have formal training.

 

[DHK]

And if a pastor even, who is not a genius, is even going to hope to get close to the seminary graduate in Bible knowledge, he is going to have to do what Spurgeon and William Carey did- he is going to have to bury his face in books written by those who DID have formal training.

This is what I have been saying all along. These men were self-taught, meaning they could take the books of others and teach themselves from them. Having basic tools they could go on and learn other languages as many missionaries do. Once Carey had a grasp of Latin, and then taught himself a couple of other languages, the others came easier.

My children didn't need any teacher or any books to learn foreign languages. At an early age on the mission field they grasped it far quicker than I did simply by playing with other children. Many missionaries of years gone by also did the same. They immersed themselves in the culture and learned the language by living among the people.

Carey, Judson, Taylor, etc. did not have the internet.
Higher education is good and I encourage those who have the chance and opportunity to take the advantage of getting it. But a person can educate themselves fairly well with all the resources that Carey, etc. never had. I can't count the number of books I have just on my hard-drive alone, let alone have access to on the internet, as well as in my library. We have resources at our finger-tips that many scholars never had. Lack of education today is no excuse for the Bible-scholar, even if they have to teach themselves. After all isn't that what Paul meant when he said:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[Don]

Luke, your sacrifice of time and money to better study the bible is not to be sneezed at, and deserves recognition and congratulations. You worked and studied hard, and no one can argue against that.

But for you to "dismiss" the laity because they didn't work as hard as you, didn't sacrifice as much as you, didn't spend as much money as you did....

To place yourself and other scholars above other people....

In my personal opinion, here's the fundamental (pardon the pun?) problem with Luke's argument:

Which college? Which scholars?

Is a PhD from Liberty "better" than a PhD from Trinity? Or Crown College? Or Southwest Baptist, or Southern Baptist, or California Baptist?

How about the student who obtained his/her degree from a distance learning course? Is that of any less value than the one who spent his/her time & money attending classes at the university itself?

Once you start the line of thought of "who's better," then you have to start nit-picking it until you agree on who actually is better and why.

Is it arrogant for a layman to place himself as an equal with someone who has spent time & money on a seminary degree? I don't know; did you ask the layman some of the questions you had to answer in order to obtain your seminary degree? Did they get them correct?

If they did, did you congratulate them for their own personal hard work and study, even though they didn't have access to the same resources you did?

 

[preacher4truth]

Luke, your sacrifice of time and money to better study the bible is not to be sneezed at, and deserves recognition and congratulations. You worked and studied hard, and no one can argue against that.

But for you to "dismiss" the laity because they didn't work as hard as you, didn't sacrifice as much as you, didn't spend as much money as you did....

To place yourself and other scholars above other people....

In my personal opinion, here's the fundamental (pardon the pun?) problem with Luke's argument:

Which college? Which scholars?

Is a PhD from Liberty "better" than a PhD from Trinity? Or Crown College? Or Southwest Baptist, or Southern Baptist, or California Baptist?

How about the student who obtained his/her degree from a distance learning course? Is that of any less value than the one who spent his/her time & money attending classes at the university itself?

Once you start the line of thought of "who's better," then you have to start nit-picking it until you agree on who actually is better and why.

Is it arrogant for a layman to place himself as an equal with someone who has spent time & money on a seminary degree? I don't know; did you ask the layman some of the questions you had to answer in order to obtain your seminary degree? Did they get them correct?

If they did, did you congratulate them for their own personal hard work and study, even though they didn't have access to the same resources you did?

Well said Don.

What do the Scriptures teach about comparing oneself with another?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
- 2 Cor. 10:12

(and what happened to esteeming others better than ourselves, Philippians 2:3?)

It's called being unwise, or, since being abrasive is his tool of choice to use on others, it's used for a person who has not understanding.

It's just foolishness, this comparing, then judging himself better, then demanding respect. Respect is earned. So is being judged as arrogant.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Well said Don.

What do the Scriptures teach about comparing oneself with another?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
- 2 Cor. 10:12

(and what happened to esteeming others better than ourselves, Philippians 2:3?)

It's called being unwise, or, since being abrasive is his tool of choice to use on others, it's used for a person who has not understanding.

It's just foolishness, this comparing, then judging himself better, then demanding respect. Respect is earned. So is being judged as arrogant.

well said Preacher

 

[glfredrick]

There are some great and some rather horrible statements made on both sides of this issue in this thread.

I'm not sure how or why anyone would bash a dedicated theological education, save for the choice of schools or teachers can have a rather dramatic impact on the end result, but that is equally the case for the one who never darkens the door of an educational facility.

Another point is that the "doing" of the works of our faith is a separate issue from the knowing of doctrines and theology. I've met plenty of very educated persons who have not or can not "do" the very first work of the church, but who can and do train those who actually put hands and feet to the gospel. I wish it were otherwise, and in many seminaries and Bible colleges, it is, but that is not universal any more than it is universal that the person who has never attended said institutions is better off -- they indeed may be lacking.

I thank and praise God for my education. I've had the distinct honor of sitting under the tutelage of men who write the books that everyone else uses in their coursework. As one coming from a perspective like that of many who do not think a formal education all that valuable (I did not start back to school until age 39, at which time I procured a Bachelor's and a Master's degree), I have now changed my mind. My seminar education was worth every cent and worth every sleepless night as I wrestled with the Text, with the books of church history, theology, and biblical languages.

A question for those not enamored of higher education... Have you ever sat down and worked though 12 or more full-length, detailed books on any given subject in a semester's time? Have you ever forced yourself to write a cohesive, reviewed paper where what you wrote would be examined against the text by persons who may be the world's foremost experts in that field of study? That is just the beginning of what happens when one enters the field of theological education. The cost of that level of discipleship and education is immense, both in dollars and in personal sacrifice, and yes, after the conclusion, you will be better equipped to think your way through difficult issues and also better grounded in the historical faith that we pass on to future generations.

One thing that I've seen as consistent over the centuries... Heretical cults are started by men (and women) with just an idea and a Bible. We can look at virtually every heresy on earth and realize that it had its start when one individual took something out of context in the Word because they had no background to grasp the implications of what they were doing. Grounded theological education is the antedate (mostly) for that sort of thing, and that does not deny the actions of the Holy Spirit one iota. The Holy Spirit is just as capable to enlighten the man who instructs in the seminary as the man who does not, and I've seen both cases to be true. The primary action required for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is salvation, and profs can be saved as well as the man in the primitive church out in the boonies. But the arrogance of the undedicated man in this case is astounding -- denigrating something that he cannot even understand based on an a priori idea that he has allowed to be planted in his head is the utmost in silliness.