Degree- worth the paper?

[Crucified in Christ]

Well said Don.

What do the Scriptures teach about comparing oneself with another?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
- 2 Cor. 10:12

(and what happened to esteeming others better than ourselves, Philippians 2:3?)

It's called being unwise, or, since being abrasive is his tool of choice to use on others, it's used for a person who has not understanding.

It's just foolishness, this comparing, then judging himself better, then demanding respect. Respect is earned. So is being judged as arrogant.

This is true. God's call on each of his servants is different; each has a particular use that is for Christ's glory. Unfortunately, far too many people are interested in self-serving and self-congratulatory efforts. I can see no real purpose in this topic other than to try to pat oneself on the back. My suggestion is that we follow the Lord's lead and call and leave the rest up to him.

I am not F.F. Bruce or D.A. Carson, yet I understand how God has used them. I am also not a country preacher, yet I can understand how Christ is using them. To try to rank the contributions of such men based on their education is more than folly, I believe it to be sinful. God is not a respecter of persons and certainly not of degrees...if He has given you the opportunity to pursue a good education, we should do it for His glory, not for our own ego.

 

[GBC Pastor]

I agree with you that education is about providing tools for study. And tools are extremely important things, aren't they?

It is far easier to dig a five mile trench with a backhoe than it is with one's bare hands.

Is it easier? Yes. But in actuality both can get the job done when necessary. Some have not had the "thousands of dollars" to invest in theological training. Some have not had the opportunity. My grandfather was one of the most learned men I have ever known when it came to the Scriptures, and he only had an 8th grade education. I have had the benefit of theological training and I am blessed and thankful for it. But I don't believe it makes me any better than my grandfather who devoted himself to a lifetime of Bible study.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is true. God's call on each of his servants is different; each has a particular use that is for Christ's glory. Unfortunately, far too many people are interested in self-serving and self-congratulatory efforts. I can see no real purpose in this topic other than to try to pat oneself on the back. My suggestion is that we follow the Lord's lead and call and leave the rest up to him.

I am not F.F. Bruce or D.A. Carson, yet I understand how God has used them. I am also not a country preacher, yet I can understand how Christ is using them. To try to rank the contributions of such men based on their education is more than folly, I believe it to be sinful. God is not a respecter of persons and certainly not of degrees...if He has given you the opportunity to pursue a good education, we should do it for His glory, not for our own ego.

I see it the same way brother. And I wish this brothers eyes to be open to how he looks to the Lord in this, and to others, who are his brothers and sisters that love him and want him ulitmately to change and have humility. He is not broken.

I wish he were.

Thank you.

 

[Don]

What do the Scriptures teach about comparing oneself with another?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
- 2 Cor. 10:12

(and what happened to esteeming others better than ourselves, Philippians 2:3?)

It's called being unwise, or, since being abrasive is his tool of choice to use on others, it's used for a person who has not understanding.

It's just foolishness, this comparing, then judging himself better, then demanding respect. Respect is earned. So is being judged as arrogant.

Much better said than what I put out there -- scripture much better than my opinion.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, your sacrifice of time and money to better study the bible is not to be sneezed at, and deserves recognition and congratulations. You worked and studied hard, and no one can argue against that.

But for you to "dismiss" the laity because they didn't work as hard as you, didn't sacrifice as much as you, didn't spend as much money as you did....

Don, this is another strawman. NNE is dismissing laymen- NNE is. I don't even know anybody who does that.

All anyone is saying here is what should be so clear that NONE should argue against it- that doing the work and investing the time, tears, sweat and blood in years upon years of formal training desiring to know the Word of God to be as effective in the ministry as possible enables one to know more than the average layman who does not go to seminary.

I actually cannot believe that there are people who deny this.

To place yourself and other scholars above other people....

No one is doing this, Don. No one. No more than we place doctors above nurses, no more than we place architects over carpenters.

Training makes a difference. Some of you think that is arrogance. What I think is that it is ACTUALLY arrogance on the part of the average layman to demand that the ones who go to seminary have NOTHING on them.

That is arrogance to the nth degree.

In my personal opinion, here's the fundamental (pardon the pun?) problem with Luke's argument:

Which college? Which scholars?

Is a PhD from Liberty "better" than a PhD from Trinity? Or Crown College? Or Southwest Baptist, or Southern Baptist, or California Baptist?

This is not a problem with my argument because it has nothing to do with my argument.

A good university is one with solid professors and curriculum. Any one that meets this criteria will give its students an advantage over the average layman.

Most Christian layman believe this. Many churches demand that their pastor have at least a bachelors-

I believe only arrogant layman who do not like to think of ANYONE as superior to themselves in any way, particularly in knowledge of the Bible, deny this.

How about the student who obtained his/her degree from a distance learning course? Is that of any less value than the one who spent his/her time & money attending classes at the university itself?

I hope not. That's how I am pursuing mine.

Once you start the line of thought of "who's better," then you have to start nit-picking it until you agree on who actually is better and why.

Not better- this has never been about better. I never used the word "better" to describe the graduate. "More knowledge" is the terminology I carefully and purposefully chose. It appears it does not matter what I actually say- just what you want me to have said so that it would be easier to antagonize me. I don't mean to be disrespectful here but it would be very nice if you would actually debate ME and MY thoughts rather than the straw man that you keep giving my name to.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I for one am thankful I can stand on the shoulders of giants - many who have spent a lifetime in deeper study/understanding than I will ever have.

They are educated and then passed this on as professors, speakers and writers. Isn't this exactly what we are supposed to be doing?

Best trained in the early church were disciples of Jesus who had lived nearly 4 years with Him 24/7. Paul later added to them. Glad Jesus added Paul (PhD) to write the DOCTRINE of the NT. If Peter had, we'd have a mess on our hands!!

Paul: And the things which you [Timothy, 2nd generation] have heard from me verified by others, these entrust to faithful men [3rd generation], who will be able to teach others [4th generation] also.

 

[Luke2427]

Is it easier? Yes. But in actuality both can get the job done when necessary. Some have not had the "thousands of dollars" to invest in theological training. Some have not had the opportunity. My grandfather was one of the most learned men I have ever known when it came to the Scriptures, and he only had an 8th grade education. I have had the benefit of theological training and I am blessed and thankful for it. But I don't believe it makes me any better than my grandfather who devoted himself to a lifetime of Bible study.

Yea, once again, you are arguing against a straw man. Please point out where I said it makes you BETTER.

Find that and then you may justify this post as something more than a straw man.

Otherwise, this is nothing but a straw man.

I have been very clear that seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman.

This does not make the graduate BETTER than a layman.

Who would actually say such a thing? I wish you guys would find him and debate him.

If you wish to debate me- debate what I actually say, please.

 

[Luke2427]

I for one am thankful I can stand on the shoulders of giants - many who have spent a lifetime in deeper study/understanding than I will ever have.

They are educated and then passed this on as professors, speakers and writers. Isn't this exactly what we are supposed to be doing?

Best trained in the early church were disciples of Jesus who had lived nearly 4 years with Him 24/7. Paul later added to them. Glad Jesus added Paul (PhD) to write the DOCTRINE of the NT. If Peter had, we'd have a mess on our hands!!

Paul: And the things which you [Timothy, 2nd generation] have heard from me verified by others, these entrust to faithful men [3rd generation], who will be able to teach others [4th generation] also.

Yea, you are not saying anything at all differently from what I have been saying, though in a better way- I wonder if Amy and others are going to call you arrogant for the above post.

 

[Luke2427]

I see it the same way brother. And I wish this brothers eyes to be open to how he looks to the Lord in this, and to others, who are his brothers and sisters that love him and want him ulitmately to change and have humility. He is not broken.

I wish he were.

Thank you.

I think this serves no other purpose than to antagonize.

I find it insulting and demeaning and baseless.

It is certainly inflammatory and makes no arguments concerning the discussion.

It seems like there is something in the rules that prevents this kind of thing.

I could be wrong.

 

[ashleysdad]

I for one am thankful I can stand on the shoulders of giants - many who have spent a lifetime in deeper study/understanding than I will ever have.

They are educated and then passed this on as professors, speakers and writers. Isn't this exactly what we are supposed to be doing?

Best trained in the early church were disciples of Jesus who had lived nearly 4 years with Him 24/7. Paul later added to them. Glad Jesus added Paul (PhD) to write the DOCTRINE of the NT. If Peter had, we'd have a mess on our hands!!

Paul: And the things which you [Timothy, 2nd generation] have heard from me verified by others, these entrust to faithful men [3rd generation], who will be able to teach others [4th generation] also.

Until I started reading this thread I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you but now I am afraid of being labled as arrogant. In all seriousness though I believe that you asked the perfect question. "Isn't this exactly what we are supposed to be doing"? I fully realize that the Holy Spirit is the one who illuminates Scripture for the believers understanding. I am not in any way minimizing that. I do believe that those who would stand in front of a body of believers and exposit Gods Word can rightly be expected to know more than the average layperson that sits in the pews. I know that I expect my pastor to know more about the Bible than I do. How do you lead and guide if you don't have more knowledge? If the pastor is not an "expert" of sorts than how can he help someone with understanding a difficult passage or figuring out how it is to be applied. The reality is that we as laypeople fully expect that our pastors DO in fact have more knowledge than we do we just don't always like to admit it.

 

[Luke2427]

This got buried.

An education is just that. It provides tools of study. You observe information and make decisions on its truth. You decide what that piece of paper means to you. Far too many place far too much imporance on a piece of paper.

I agree Brother Jim. It is also true that far too many people put too LITTLE emphasis on that piece of paper and think that they are just as smart having not done the work as those who have that piece of paper.

I agree with you that education is about providing tools for study. And tools are extremely important things, aren't they?

It is far easier to dig a five mile trench with a backhoe than it is with one's bare hands.

You will express your education as soon as you opwen your mouth. Perhaps we should learn to shut up.

Absolutely. And it is also true that many who can lead us right because of their knowledge that they received via torturous labor and grossly expensive investment should open their mouths rather than keeping them shut.

Some who have no education should shut up.

It works both ways.

There was a laddie in college named Breeze,
Weighed down with Ba's and Bd's,
Said the doctor, "It's plain,"
"You're killing yourself by degrees."

And...
There was a young punk named Tat
Whose mind was blind as a bat
"I'm smarter'n any egg head," he said
But was to them no more than a gnat!

Don't be too harsh on me- I wrote that in two minutes!!

 

[Amy.G]

What we are not supposed to be doing is saying that because "we" are scholars we know "our" theology is the correct one because we have studied more and care more about scripture than you do. That is what this is all about.

Originally Posted by Havensdad
But, yes, the only place that Calvinism is a majority, is among Bible scholars/Seminary professors. Calvinism is in the minority among the laity. That does seem to suggest something.

Is it not also arrogance for laity to assume that they can go to the Bible and dig out as much or more than those who have dedicated a decade of their lives in universities specializing in the study of the Scriptures?

Why can't a layperson dig out as much as a scholar? Is the Holy Spirit not the layperson's teacher? Can only a scholar know the deep things of God?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Until I started reading this thread I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you but now I am afraid of being labled as arrogant.

I would not allow the 'little foxes to spoil the vine' or take your joy. This thread proves some here actually think ignorance is some spiritual plus. The day we quit learning and trying to increase in wisdom and knowledge is a sad day . . for us.

The reality is that we as laypeople fully expect that our pastors DO in fact have more knowledge than we do we just don't always like to admit it.

I would trust this is most often the case. So that they might assist you and give a response to the unsaved who raise really tough questions. This is the duty of the elder and why Jesus gave His bride these men.

So if a mormon confronts me, I sure need more than a "be warmed and filled" for an answer. If a church member asks me about the hypostatic union of Christ and how it impacts both us today and the church in history, I sure had better know. Or be able to find the answer for them quickly.

Education is our friend and expected of elders. He is not to be a novice, but a veteran/experienced and capable.

And, part of my role as an elder is to TEACH. Hello. Teach = Knowing more than the learner.

 

[GBC Pastor]

Yea, once again, you are arguing against a straw man. Please point out where I said it makes you BETTER.

Find that and then you may justify this post as something more than a straw man.

Otherwise, this is nothing but a straw man.

I have been very clear that seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman.

This does not make the graduate BETTER than a layman.

Who would actually say such a thing? I wish you guys would find him and debate him.

If you wish to debate me- debate what I actually say, please.

Is it easier? Yes. But in actuality both can get the job done when necessary. Some have not had the "thousands of dollars" to invest in theological training. Some have not had the opportunity. My grandfather was one of the most learned men I have ever known when it came to the Scriptures, and he only had an 8th grade education. I have had the benefit of theological training and I am blessed and thankful for it. But I don't believe it makes me any more knowledgeable than my grandfather who devoted himself to a lifetime of Bible study.

There...is that "better"?

 

[Luke2427]

There...is that "better"?

Thanks. Yes it is.

It does mean that you have knowledge that your grandfather does not have. You have tools in your tool box that far exceed those in his.

You have a grasp on the original languages.

You understand things about church history and the creeds, etc... that he does not know.

You have been equipped with a firm grip on hermeneutics.

Your grandfather would probably tell you that you have more knowledge on these matters than he does and that you know more about the Bible than he does, would he not?

 

[Luke2427]

What we are not supposed to be doing is saying that because "we" are scholars we know "our" theology is the correct one because we have studied more and care more about scripture than you do. That is what this is all about.






Why can't a layperson dig out as much as a scholar? Is the Holy Spirit not the layperson's teacher? Can only a scholar know the deep things of God?

The Holy Spirit does not teach folks Greek and Hebrew anymore (unless you believe tongues are for today).

The Holy Spirit does not fill the mind via osmosis with important knowledge about church history.

The Holy Spirit does not teach philosophy.

The only time he does do these things is when the student applies himself to higher learning.

God honors hard work and sacrifice in the pursuit of the knowledge of Scripture. That is seen most clearly in seminary.

 

[GBC Pastor]

If he were alive he would probably agree that I have had exposure to much greater theological training opportunities than he had...would he agree that I know more about the Bible than he does? No. My grandfather studied Greek and was a huge fan of reading about church history. I traveled a different path in terms of obtaining the knowledge I possess. A path that was not a possibility for my grandfather. But we both arrived at the same destination. Are there certain areas of strength in my theological studies that I probably have greater knowledge of than he did? Sure. But there are other areas in which he was far superior to what I am now or may ever be. Church history certainly being one of those. He devoured that kind of information while I forced myself to plod through what was necessary. I sat under some great theological minds in my seminary training and was blessed for it, but it also always brought a smile to my face when one of my profs would use a quote from someone who my grandfather had once quoted to me.

 

[Luke2427]

If he were alive he would probably agree that I have had exposure to much greater theological training opportunities than he had...would he agree that I know more about the Bible than he does? No. My grandfather studied Greek and was a huge fan of reading about church history. I traveled a different path in terms of obtaining the knowledge I possess. A path that was not a possibility for my grandfather. But we both arrived at the same destination. Are there certain areas of strength in my theological studies that I probably have greater knowledge of than he did? Sure. But there are other areas in which he was far superior to what I am now or may ever be. Church history certainly being one of those. He devoured that kind of information while I forced myself to plod through what was necessary. I sat under some great theological minds in my seminary training and was blessed for it, but it also always brought a smile to my face when one of my profs would use a quote from someone who my grandfather had once quoted to me.

That's a wonderful testimony- seriously. I was very close to my grandfather as well. I tear up every time I here that old Randy Travis song- "I Thought He Walked on Water".

But your illustration proves too much. Your grandfather cannot by any means be considered to be an "average layman".

If you will peruse this thread you will see that is the phrase I used repeatedly. I said the seminary graduate is going to have more Bible knowledge than the "average layman".

Your illustration actually proves my point for me. Here you are a seminary grad and the first illustration that comes to your mind about a layman knowing as much as a seminary grad is this extraordinary man who actually studied Greek. Thus you prove the TREMENDOUS advantage formal training gives a person over the average layman.

How many layman match the caliber of your grandfather? An extraordinarily small percentage- one no doubt with multiple zeros in a row behind the decimal point.

He is, as I have said repeatedly, the exception not the rule. I have stated repeatedly that there are a very few exceptions like Charles Spurgeon.

You are proving my point.

 

[GBC Pastor]

Sorry. But if you think that proves your point your wrong.

Thus you prove the TREMENDOUS advantage formal training gives a person over the average layman.

He had no formal training, just an intense desire to understand God's word. Which is something anyone is capable of whether they ever sit in a seminary class or not.

 

[ashleysdad]

What we are not supposed to be doing is saying that because "we" are scholars we know "our" theology is the correct one because we have studied more and care more about scripture than you do. That is what this is all about.






Why can't a layperson dig out as much as a scholar? Is the Holy Spirit not the layperson's teacher? Can only a scholar know the deep things of God?

When you use the terms "scholar" and "layperson" how do you mean them? I believe that anyone who is willing to put in the time and effort of studying and learning and disciplining themselves for this can absolutely pull out the deep truths of Gods word. At that point though, in my opinion the layperson has crossed from layperson to scholar. I do not believe that a person that has not spent years in study and gaining of knowledge can go to the Bible and pull out the same amount of information that someone who has spent years of study can. I believe that it is a fallacy to suggest that. The bottom line is that anyone who is willing to dedicate themselves to fervently studying Gods word can learn the deep truths of it, but then that person becomes a scholar and not a "layperson".